Ethics of purchasing wild-caught fish [Archive]

deanne

01-12-2008, 03:12 PM

That's a good thread; thank you. It brings up some of the many facets of this complicated issue, such as other impacts on the ecosystem, methods of collection and degree of impact to local populations, and the possibility that there is some positive effect on a local economies and therefore on the environment by providing a greener option for locals to make a living. I am also impressed with the dedication to developing captive-breeding programs for wilds, and this will reduce the demand on wild-caught fish. This has already been the case, of course, with all the beautiful color-variants developed by breeders and the fact that there is some success with pure wild strains.

It's not a black-and-white situation for sure, and conclusions will be different for different people. It's great to see that this community cares about the topic. I like to be able to talk intelligently about things, and I know someone is eventually going to ask my about my wild-caught discus. Having this conversation with people like you helps me decide what to think. Oddly, my job right now involves salmonid species protection, and we have already witnessed the extinction of the majority of local populations in California from our modern land management practices here. Buying a wild discus undoubtedly has less impact on the planet's biodiversity than driving my car, or buying a MacDonald's hamburger.

Still I'm curious about what's on the other end of my purchase. Has there been any direct experience by any of you- has anyone here actually been to a discus collection site and seen what happens? I'm sure there is a wide variety of actual situations, but I would be interested to hear a tale from the Amazon, bad or good.

Thanks!

tonymaccs

01-12-2008, 04:44 PM

Hi Deanne,
A number of vid clips have been posted on the internet showing some of the collection and handling operations- an interesting place to start if you haven't already seen them. Start with a search on you tube.
Tony

deanne

01-12-2008, 05:59 PM

Great- thanks, Tony. I will check them out.

JeffreyRichard

01-12-2008, 08:40 PM

Fellow hobbyists and discus professionals,

It's well known that reef collection for the aquarium trade has decimated many species and is arguably a cruel practice.

At one time this may have been the norm, but my undersatnding is that much of the reef hobby is managed in a much more self-perpetuative way substainable way. Cyanide is used much less, as is the practice of decimating reefs ... as a whole. This has come about through learning, education and experience, not to mention the boycott against cyanide caught fish (when it can be determined).

My point is with your wording ... "IS" should probably be changed to "WAS"

deanne

01-13-2008, 02:16 AM

Good to know things have improved in general. I did just see an article about a particular reef species being endangered due to over-collection, so I guess there is some variability out there. I imagine there are more and less responsible choices of wild-caught fish, salt or fresh water. I'd like to do a salt tank someday, too, so I'm glad to hear that one can get captive-bred reef animals- I didn't know that! And that's so cool that there was a boycott of cyanide-caught fish.

Regarding the wild-caught discus- Is it possible to find out exactly their story so we can have a similar effect on practices out there? Do most dealers of wild fish know where they came from and how they were caught? The guy I bought mine from couldn't tell me what region it came from. That doesn't seem very good, does it? I'm betting some dealers are much more caring and scientific about it, and it would enhance the whole experience for me to support that kind of whole-hearted interest in the species.

brewmaster15

01-13-2008, 08:09 AM

Deanne,
Unless a person physically collects the wild discus themselves theres little way that you can tell exactly the area it comes from let alone how it was collected and treated prior to it being in the store you bought it at..... The Amazon is a very large place and most of the wild discus collected by the locals wind up in a few "central" export locations... How they are "grouped, sorted and named from that point makes it very difficult in most cases to know..

If I see a wild discus with a collection location attached to it...I pay little attention to it, except to make note of it..........other than that its a wild and what strain/form it looks like... Green, blue, brown or heckel.. This is my personal sorting system....not scientific....but for me...practical.

hth,
al

doc3toes

01-17-2008, 02:12 AM

i think we should encourage our LFS to label all fish as wild caught or captive bred. that goes for all exotic species. they wont do it if you dont ask. Althought with the discus its not as tough to tell. people just need to be able to make an informed decision.

Heiko Bleher

01-21-2008, 07:30 PM

Hi Deanne and Al,

this is Heiko and I just wanted to mention the following:

1. Cyanide is still out there, and more than ever - but NOT were ornamentals are caught, that is almost history, it is used in much larger scale to catch the food fishes throughout (almost) the entire Indo-Pacific. I could fill a book with photos of the last few years (I am every year there looking for new freshwater species, or those which are endangered, or extinct already). What Man is doing to the Ocean to feed them self's (and we must figure there are almost 4 billion chinese mouth to be fed now, and they take the biggest part of it...) is unbelievable and no one can stop it. Not even a war in Irak or Afganistan...
2. Discus are ONLY threatened by deforestation and again, they Chinese gave free letter to the Brazilian Government: we buy all the Soja you can produce. Not only is the entire south and central part of the Brazilian countryside cosists of the largest Soja plantation on Planet Earth (I just drove last year 2,500 km nonstop across soja plantations, as far as my eye could see to each side), but now the Amazon is the only alternativ. Those Chinese want to eat and Brazil wants the money...
The danger is not - NEVER - the fw fishes collected for the ornamental fish trade, but the continuous destruction of their livelihood, their habitats. Deanne should read my book to understand this all better (or best), before she write about things she does not know.
3. Al is right, there is no way, except for ie Alenquer region etc.
4. But I agree, vendors should say (and they know) which fishes are wild and which are tank raised. Specially, because they should NOT be mixed, simply because wild fishes are ALWAYS much stronger than tank raised ones. There is no question. And this would eliminate many problem we have in the hobby, by mixing those diseases are carried and infection, which one or the other has no immune system against it.

And at the end: people who talk sucyh none sense as "ethics" o collect ornamentals, should first go to the countries and look for them selfs, before they talk. I can only say: I am sorry for such stupidity... Better look for the facts (but many do not want to...).

best regards

Heiko

deanne

01-23-2008, 10:31 PM

Great information everyone; thank you! The topic is more complex than I thought and I've learned a lot. Unfortunately I can't get down to the Amazon to see for myself, so I have to form an opinion based on any second-hand info that I can get.

I've come to love my one wild- he or she (I wish I knew) has a lot of personality, beautiful and subtle colors, and larger eyes than the others. I feel good having given him a home, since after all he had already made the journey all the way to California!

Here he is among his friends.

d

genek

01-24-2008, 06:51 PM

Hi Heiko, I think you point is typically racists'. I somehow feel offended as a Chinese. The number of Chinese population you quote is about three times of the real number which is below 1.5billion. Chinese government is now still working hard to control the population by strictly enforcing the "one-child" policy that has been criticized by the western world as an anti-human right policy. I think people in the world should appreciate what Chinese government has done in the past decades to control the population. Think about what is going on in India. The population there is still out of control. No offense to India, but just to state the truth.

I am sorry for the unrelated topic beyond discus.
As for purchasing wild-caught discus, I think this should not be encouraged. Instead, we can encourage captive-breeding program that will supply ornamental fish for the market. Nowadays, most of the ornamental fish in the market are produced in the hatchery. The industry of gold fish and koi fish is a good example. I am happy that Discus business is now developing in a similar way.

Gene

Hi Deanne and Al,

this is Heiko and I just wanted to mention the following:

1. Cyanide is still out there, and more than ever - but NOT were ornamentals are caught, that is almost history, it is used in much larger scale to catch the food fishes throughout (almost) the entire Indo-Pacific. I could fill a book with photos of the last few years (I am every year there looking for new freshwater species, or those which are endangered, or extinct already). What Man is doing to the Ocean to feed them self's (and we must figure there are almost 4 billion chinese mouth to be fed now, and they take the biggest part of it...) is unbelievable and no one can stop it. Not even a war in Irak or Afganistan...
2. Discus are ONLY threatened by deforestation and again, they Chinese gave free letter to the Brazilian Government: we buy all the Soja you can produce. Not only is the entire south and central part of the Brazilian countryside cosists of the largest Soja plantation on Planet Earth (I just drove last year 2,500 km nonstop across soja plantations, as far as my eye could see to each side), but now the Amazon is the only alternativ. Those Chinese want to eat and Brazil wants the money...
The danger is not - NEVER - the fw fishes collected for the ornamental fish trade, but the continuous destruction of their livelihood, their habitats. Deanne should read my book to understand this all better (or best), before she write about things she does not know.
3. Al is right, there is no way, except for ie Alenquer region etc.
4. But I agree, vendors should say (and they know) which fishes are wild and which are tank raised. Specially, because they should NOT be mixed, simply because wild fishes are ALWAYS much stronger than tank raised ones. There is no question. And this would eliminate many problem we have in the hobby, by mixing those diseases are carried and infection, which one or the other has no immune system against it.

And at the end: people who talk sucyh none sense as "ethics" o collect ornamentals, should first go to the countries and look for them selfs, before they talk. I can only say: I am sorry for such stupidity... Better look for the facts (but many do not want to...).

best regards

Heiko

Lee C

01-24-2008, 09:51 PM

Mr. Bleher,
I could not agree more with your observation and assumtion of the human race exterminating the eco system/habitat of the wild fish.
I have purchased quite a few wild caught discus and tried to capture their beauty in pictures.
They will keep netting them in the Amazon, we cannot stop it!
I would advise anyone who has the opportunity... purchase wild caught discus and try to breed them, JMO.
As far as ethics are concerned, similar to crying about global warming while filling up your SUV.....hypocrisy at it's best!
regards
Lee

crimson cross

01-25-2008, 03:35 PM

Heiko,
I repect you on many of your views, but at the same time, I think you are wrong on many of your observations. ...jmo.
Phil

yogi

01-25-2008, 11:11 PM

I agree with crimson cross. jmo

deanne

01-27-2008, 05:51 AM

Hello,

I don't own an SUV, and I don't think it's hypocritical or stupidity to question whether a practice is ethical before engaging further in it. I am quite conscious that my daily existence has a negative impact on the planet. Nevertheless I can't just dismiss everything as if it's hopeless to even try.

Since we're sharing opinions, I'll share mine (I don't think I have much yet; but only asked provocative questions).

I don't buy the line of thought that since these species are threatened already by more wide-spread human activities it's somehow disingenuous to worry about the capture of them for the aquarium trade. I think we should consider all impacts, big and small. In this world we live in now, the small things can be the ones that put the final nails in the coffin that the big things cause, after all. Small, fragmented populations are more vulnerable to local stressers, so it follows for me that it's even MORE important to worry about the impact of these harvesting operations.

What Gene says makes sense to me. They will keep netting them only if we buy them- we are the market, and it's a market-driven practice. Maybe it's actually a very nice cottage industry helping poverty-stricken people make a sustainable living, but it seems we can't verify that. Even the pros here say that the consumer can never really find out anything reliable about what's happening with those animals' source populations, the practices employed to harvest them, and the impact of those harvest practices. So I conclude I just don't have enough information to be convinced I'm NOT doing a bad thing by being part of that market. But that's just me- don't let me tell you what you should conclude.

While I think it's often well-meaning, I don't subscribe to the Noah's Arc theory that the ones in captivity will someday be the only ones left, thus justifying buying them for hobbyists' pleasure. I just don't see us launching a recovery program together like they did with the condors. Once habitat is gone, populations are gone. Individuals in zoos are no replacement for an ecosystem. As for the education theory, I hold a similar view. I don't need to swim with captive dolphins in a hotel swimming pool in order to learn to be sensitive about them.

I do like the fact that more and more of these beautiful fish are being bred in captivity and because of that I can make a personal choice not to support the trade of wild animals if that makes sense to me, without abandoning the entire hobby (which is personal and doesn't pass judgment on anyone else). I hope that the people working on breeding the wild strains of discus succeed in their endeavors so more of us can enjoy them without encouraging the taking of wild animals out of an ever-diminishing amount of pristine Amazon habitat. Maybe the relatively few people capable of doing that should be the only ones buying wild fish.

After buying my one wild green (for only $35- how much did the poor thing suffer just for me to buy it for $35?) and having all these questions, I think I will simply not buy any more wild-caught animals.

But again, that's just me. I just wanted to get some info from people who know more than I do about the topic. I didn't mean to start something unpleasant, since this forum is here to be fun and informative. Thank you all for your inputs.

d

crimson cross

01-27-2008, 12:11 PM

Hi Deanne,
I only wish that we have more thoughtful and considerate consumers like you in this fragile world of ours. Glad to see you in the discus hobby.
Phil.

Lee C

01-27-2008, 05:59 PM

Sometimes reality is unpleasant. Life is all about struggles to survive. Best to deal with it and move on.
JMO
regards,
Lee

Apistomaster

01-28-2008, 02:09 PM

Heiko sometimes seems insensitive at times but I would remind members that English is not his first language and how he sometimes words things can be misconstrued by very sensitive folks but he is totally right about the status of Discus in the wild. Ornamental collections of Discus are not harming them or other different species. It is the industrialization and agricultural transformations going on in Amazonia that represent the most serious threats to all ornamental tropical fish.

Just one major Hydroelectric dam construction project in Amazonia will do more damage to aquarium fishes than 10,000 years of collecting. This is a sustainable resource as well as a vast genetic resource for Discus in particular and collection is a valuable contribution to the Domestic strains' genetic diversity.

It is in no way comparable to the collecting of reef species. In spite of the enormous diversity of life forms found on reefs, that environment is far more delicate and exists on a razors edge by comparison. Reefs are more like desert ecosystems than they are rain forests.

Heiko Bleher

02-06-2008, 02:31 PM

Hi,

this is Heiko Bleher again. Just saw some of the comments after my writings and wanted to give just a few brief answers and/or try to clear up some possible misinterpretations of what I wrote:
1. I am NO racists' AT all (I have lived my live more among natives, Indioans, Aborigines, Negros and Pygmies than anyone of you all for sure and was ALWAYS more happy under those than among "whites"). I NEVER tried to offend a Chinese or anyone, it was totally misunderstud. I just said that the soya in Amazonia (increasd again by 20% the Amazonian destruction in the last 3 month of 2007 vs. the last 3 month of 2006). I just said what I saw with my eyes, the facts. I drove in 2006 along 2500 km of ONLY soya plantations in the sdates of Mato Gross, Brazil. I was and lived there as a child and had seen the biggest forest on Earth were now not a single is tree left (2500 km is almost across the USA). Only soya and all goes to China and much more will go (if could also go to some other country, has nothing to do with the race Chinese). I also mentioned China as an exemplae of population explotion worldwide. And I am convinced travelling across China many times and taking to peasents, people in the countryside and seeing the population, that China has 4 billion, if not more. But it is the same in India (over 2 billion by latest review, statiscts say 1.026 billion...), Indonesia is close to half a billion (and not 220 million), Africa far more than 1. 2 billion (I travelled and colelcted in all 50 countries and seen and talked to peopel). The latter was declared by Unesco 350 million in 1998. Than I wroite a report which had according to my calculation 1 billion at least. In 2000 Unesco corrected their record to 1 billion also... What I wanted to say with China, is with all the world (the so called third world countries, including China, India, which cannot concider as such anymore): NO ONES really counts in those countries for decades. This alos applies to Latin America and Brazil (the latter sure near half billion, and not 196 million...). In China I saw, is that the "strictly enforcing the one-child policy" may work in the big cities, but not in the country side (and the govement may work hard, but Chinese peasents told me: "I cannot do this, I need 10 children, if not who takes care of the rise? I do not care about what my giverment says... they do not help me..."). There the population there is still out of control as in those other countries (and many more) mentioned.
No offense, but you completely misunderstud me and you rely on what the news tells you - not me. Only in what I see I believe, never what the media or governments say. I learned it when I was 5 years old from my grandfather, he said: "Son do not believe 10% of what they tell you, but steal, steal as much as you can, BUT ONLY with your eyes, they tell you the truth, always". And that has and will stay with me until my last day.
And you know (but you probably don't. You would know better if you read my Discus FACT book...) you do not need to encouraged discus (or any other freshwater fish) breeding, or a captive-breeding program that will supply ornamental fish for the market. They do this for a century. Discus laone in China are breed just in Guanzgou area 500,000 monthly (about twenty times more than what is collected in Amazonia in a year), and around the world to my calculation now there are commercially breeding about 20 million. And I will not go into detail of other fish-breeding but it exceeds discus by 50-fold or more.
So you should look, and see before you write what you do not know.

Lee I want to thank you for your nice comments, and I really appreciate Larry's comment, it is 100% correct. Larry you are a wise man. Thank you.

But I want, at the end just say a few words to Deanne and Phil: first Deanne
1. Yes small things can be the one nail for the coffin, but who does them???
2. There is NO impact in tropical freshwater habitas from the harvesting of ornamentals anywhere in the 163 countries I researched (the other hardly have any, tiny islands or Kingdoms). BUT the harvesting for food, to eat them, those which we call ornamentals, that gives them the nail in the coffin (see polulation above...). Everone wants (and needs) to survive and the tiniest fish is protein...
3. You so called "pros" must be very ignorat (to not say stupid). It is VERY EASY to find out the facts, all one needs to do, is to go out to see for himself ! (Or you come with me on one of my 12-16 field trips each year, next one in a week to Amazoonia, but three more to that area this year.) But they do not want to do that (your pros)( as it would contradict their saying... What I say, are only facts, what I have seen or lived. I do not believe anyone of such "pros", no TV (which I do not have and never will, as it tells you daily wrong stories or give fals, or manipulated news). Just one simple war event: The other day I landed in Moscow to vist a frtiend and his discus breeidng estblishment and he pickled me up and aske: "You are alife out of Tajikistan, there is a war going on and they killing everone we have in the news, how come you had no problem?" Well I was for 14 days in the most peaceful country and people I meet in my live in and across Tajikistan these "war" days...
4. At least you agree that when a habitat is gone, the population is goine too. That is nice. Thank you. (Only the rest you could have avoided...).
5. Remember (as above mentioned) about 95% of all ornamental freshwater fishes now are coming worldwide from commercial breeding establishments, only 5% or less of what you see in aquaria around the world, is from the wild.

And to Phil:
What is wrong? If you have any writing or observation of mine you do not agree, that write it.

Now enough, I must continue to write serious matter (my book and the recap of the true story of the 4 neons, as I found a fourth one, a new species...).

Good night

Heiko Bleher

majik

02-06-2008, 03:22 PM

I would give anything(except my fish)to go on a field trip with someone such as Heiko:)

crimson cross

02-06-2008, 03:22 PM

Hi Heiko,
Since you asked, for starters, according to your calculation, the population of China is 4billion. I find this hard to believe..you could not have come to this conclusion by just talking to the pheasants in the countryside.
Hopefully your discus facts in your book is not that off .
Phil.

Heiko Bleher

02-06-2008, 05:11 PM

Hi,

all I can say is what I see and I can calculate and NOTHING is off in my book as I did no prognoses in it only facts. And what world population is concerned, that will come one day (hopefully) to the surface. It did in Africa after my research – and by UNESCO (if you know who they are) – hopefully somewhere else. (But ususally no one wants to know that...).

Heiko

PS: But naturally you can believe what you want. I believe what I see.

Imperialdiscus

03-15-2008, 02:46 PM

Fellow hobbyists and discus professionals,

I'd like to hear opinions and information on what goes on down there in the Amazon basin with wild discus collectors. It's well known that reef collection for the aquarium trade has decimated many species and is arguably a cruel practice. Is that happening with discus populations? How many die in transport? Is it unethical to buy wild discus?

I was going to answer this by responding quote by quote of yours from a post later in this thread, but decided that would get too confusing so I'll just respond to the original post.......

I see nothing unethical or immoral about buying wild discus.

Now to cover some conservation points, you asked about how many were harmed in shipping/capture, did your 35.00 discus suffer in transit. Fact is, it happens. No one really wants to see any of them die in transport or capture, but it cannot be avoided.

Is your 35.00 Discus thriving and happy now? If so, then why worry about it as he doesn't seem to be.

Fishing/collecting/capture is not the only threat to indigenous wildlife. Human population, deforestation, pollutants, natural disasters etc, can all play a part in a threat to a species.

You also sounded dismissive of the argument that eventually only captive specimens will exist. In reality, that is not a bad thing for captive populations to exist. In fact it is at least one step, one piece of the puzzle in ensuring a species survival long term.

Assuming all fishing stopped tomorrow, and then a natural or man made event happened such as logging, forest reclamation in an area, and a native population of Discus was completely destroyed. There are many wild forms that exist in only singular, very small sections of river and nowhere else, like the Cabeza Azul.

With no captive populations, that form is extinct and cannot be brought back unless you want to get into some extreme science, which frankly wouldn't happen with Discus. A captive population at least provides a safety net for the species. Later when some politician decides a habitat needs to be restored, there is a source of wildlife available from multiple bloodlines, maintained by a diverse group where specimens can be obtained.

ACA has a breeding program for threatened Cichlids, and while they don't have all the answers, they do have a piece of the whole, and that is a great start.

Frankly I would like to see a real major undertaking to catalog, identify by region and stream every single species and type of wild Discus, and an organized captive breeding program with specific standards to preserve form and color types of wild Discus.

In summary, I wouldn't get all that concerned about it.

Apistomaster

03-16-2008, 05:40 PM

Imperialdiscus wrote:

"Frankly I would like to see a real major undertaking to catalog, identify by region and stream every single species and type of wild Discus, and an organized captive breeding program with specific standards to preserve form and color types of wild Discus."
1. H. Bleher has done that to the extent as is humanly possible for one individual.
Discus are not food fish so no public or private agency will ever bother. I think this will become more widely appreciated once the Genus Symphysodon is on the door step of extinction but few will care because our own survival will be in jeopardy at about the same time.
2. Undertaking species and local varieties maintenance is a futile task with Symphysodon, existing as it does, in a continuum of phenotypes within each given species. The attempt will only lead to eventual creation of domesticated discus ill suited to living in the wild.
It is possible to retain some attributes of some the different wild types cultured and that is about all. I happen to think it is worth trying to do at least that.
3. A living planet is what is at stake, not the death of a few discus. All fishing is a blood "sport" so don't buy wild discus if you don't know how to care for them. Imperialdiscus said it more tactfully than I do.
I practice catch and release fishing using barbless artificial flies on all native fish. I know as well as the regulators do that about 1 to 2% will die because of the injuries inflicted on the fish. This is considered to pose no threat to natural fish populations since it makes no difference because of their reproduction rates. This is a point H. Bleher was trying to make with regard to collecting from healthy wild fish populations.

Imperialdiscus

03-16-2008, 06:46 PM

Imperialdiscus wrote:

1. H. Bleher has done that to the extent as is humanly possible for one individual.
Discus are not food fish so no public or private agency will ever bother. I think this will become more widely appreciated once the Genus Symphysodon is on the door step of extinction but few will care because our own survival will be in jeopardy at about the same time.

2. Undertaking species and local varieties maintenance is a futile task with Symphysodon, existing as it does, in a continuum of phenotypes within each given species. The attempt will only lead to eventual creation of domesticated discus ill suited to living in the wild.
It is possible to retain some attributes of some the different wild types cultured and that is about all. I happen to think it is worth trying to do at least that.

I'm well aware of Mr. Bleher's impressive body of work in this matter, and since I do not yet own the rather large book he wrote, I won't comment on something I am unfamiliar with, such as how much of the geographical data he has collected over decades of collecting are widely available. However I presume his book is a bountiful collection of such data.

Unfortunately just one person cannot change the world. But several can with a common purpose.

While you accurately comment on the wide variance in types and local variances, it is true, conservation on that scale is pretty much completely impossible under present circumstances. However I will disagree with your assertion that an attempt to create a captive program will only lead to domesticated specimens unable to exist in the wild, as that theory has already been completely disproven. In the first chapters of Andrew SOh's book, Discus: The Naked Truth, he talks about the "Wild Discus of Singapore" Cobalts, and snakeskins and whatever, that have found their way into parks, lakes etc. Fish that thrive there.

When I was stationed on Guam, I trekked to a very tiny lake that was really hard to get to that had thriving populations of all kinds of tropical fish native to everywhere BUT Guam. I caught a HUGE Red Devil out of that lake!!!

SO I disagree in full that it would create fish unable to live in the wild again, the evidence suggests exactly the opposite. Even if it didn't, it is worth doing.

Not just willy nilly reckless breeding, but carefully controlled and selected breeding not to enhance specific characteristics, but to maintain them.

And honestly, not to say anything intended to be insulting to anyone, but not the average joe who wants one because they look cool, or it is somehow a status to have wild heckels.

I didn't quote the rest because I dislike debates that contain the ability to turn politically or emotionally charged. While I believe in responsible conservation, I don't run off in robes like a modern day Moses screaming the end is near on street corners in Downtown Los Angeles. And FYI, I'm not implying you do either.

None of us can change the practices or habits that are destroying wild habitats, but we do have the power to mitigate the damages, and provide a way for populations to be reintroduced at a later time.

A lot of Discus people have overly inflated egos. Some dream of being the Discus superstar by having the next big thing attributed to them. How cool would it be to be the guy who has a vision and makes a difference that isn't on the cover of next months TFH or other publication?

I think that is far more relevant than being the guy who developed the "golden albino blue diamond cobra snakeskin half red cover brilliant"

Apistomaster

03-16-2008, 07:19 PM

This country began an experiment over 100 years ago trying to breed salmon and trout to be stocked back in to their native rivers because dams and the resulting impoundments reduced the original wild fish populations by about 95%.

This policy has been an utter failure. Desperate measures are being taken to now to preserve the remaining wild fish native to each stream. It turns out each had specific adaptations to its home waters and the hatchery fish had miserable survival and reproduction rates. Furthermore, the interbreeding between the remaining wild fish and the hatchery fish proved just as damaging. Enough hatchery fish survived to cross breed with the natives to dilute the very specific adaptations the fish of each peculiar water system had developed thus lowering their abilities to survive.

In what way is the survival of a domestic discus in non-native waters of Singapore related to wild discus? In what way does that show any value of producing what is essentially the equivalent of zoo bred cheetahs? Cheetahs don't even have enough genetic diversity to survive as a species let alone be replaced in the wild but I'm sure specimens are breeding in the Singapore zoo.

I agree with one thing. This is a subject on which we will agree to disagree with each other.

Imperialdiscus

03-16-2008, 08:55 PM

In what way is the survival of a domestic discus in non-native waters of Singapore related to wild discus? In what way does that show any value of producing what is essentially the equivalent of zoo bred cheetahs? Cheetahs don't even have enough genetic diversity to survive as a species let alone be replaced in the wild but I'm sure specimens are breeding in the Singapore zoo.

Your comment was they would be incapable of surviving in the wild, which was completely incorrect. I showed evidence that domestic Discus were indeed capable of surviving in a wild environment which by default we can also make the assumption that the same would hold true for domestically bred wild stock.

In response, you introduce new parameters, modifying your argument to make it a moving target. Your original argument stated they would be ill suited for surviving in the wild and that is incorrect.

Bringing zoo bred cheetah's into the conversation as an example of why a Discus effort is pointless is also another flawed attempt to base a discussion on. Cheetah populations had already dwindled to the point where they lack the genetic diversity to survive as a species. The fact is, this is not the situation with Discus, otherwise they would be CITIES listed already. And while the Cheetah is an example of too little too late, there are plenty of other captive breeding programs out there that have saved species. All you are proving here is if you wait long enough, you are guaranteed that a breeding program will fail.

As for the efforts to breed Salmon and trout, without specifics as to how the program was run, or in the absence of any specific correlating data on the subject, there isn't much to go on as to why the programs failed specifically. You mention the hatchery fish had poor survival rates, but without the correlating data to explain the problem, it's just irrelevant hearsay, although I give you points for mentioning geographical specializations specific to precise locations.

Unfortunately, trying to claim that because it didn't work with some salmon or trout, with unspecified conditions, and extrapolating that as evidence that the same would apply to Discus is ridiculous.

So yes, we'll just disagree on the subject. I just happen to think NOT trying is worse.

Apistomaster

03-17-2008, 03:14 AM

Many of you may not see the relevance our handling of native vs hatchery trout/salmon over the past one hundred years of building dams on our rivers and the sweeping effects it will have on discus and other ornamental tropical fish from Amazonia but the truth is, most of you soon will.

Every government in Amazonia has plans or actual hydroelectric projects under construction for every suitable site of every major river in the region. With the dams goes the annual cycling of the seasonal water levels. Fish below the dams, like discus will lose the very ecosystem they are specifically evolved for survival in. Their numbers will be reduced in proportion to the habitat lost. This won't happen overnight. It will be history within four decades.

On the subject of the negative effects hatchery salmon and trout on native populations there are 2850 hits on Google. If you check out the effects the dams are expected to have on the ecosysems of the rivers in Amazonia you will be overwhelmed. Introduced Carp now live in the Rio Negro, just a small problem the USA spends millions of $$'s trying to control here.

The most famous and controversial of all the current projects under construction is the dam on the Rio Xingu. You know that place where all the fancy plecos come from? Hypancistrus zebra being the most famous. The banned for export one? The one a few of us are trying to keep going in captivity? The one that sells for several hundred bucks for a 3/4 to 1 inch specimen. I put my money where my mouth is and am one of those who forked over the $1000's for F1 H.zebra for captive breeding programs. I am making an effort to preserve this species.
The discus of the Rio Xingu?
Already gone.

Heiko Bleher

03-18-2008, 05:04 PM

Hi,

this is Heiko and I saw your both interesting comments, those of Steve and Larry and first of all: thank you Larry.

From what I see, Steve has some points there, but still not all, or better is missing some.
First of all in reference to re-introducing animals (fishes) into the wild there must be several distinctions to be made. You can impossibly say that this is the answer (the captive breeding program to re-introduce wild animals into nature again). It is just not that easy and has, as Larry has shown, been done unsuccessfully in most parts of the world (and I could give you hundreds of facts I have seen in nature where it never has worked).
What Steve did read in Andrew's book is only part of the story. I was recently again in SIN and I have a dear friend there who is not only a fish fanatic but also a great angler. Also his son. We went to the lake mentioned by Andrew and there are peacock bass (Cichla), and flower horn cichlids, tilapias and oscars but no discus. If they were there once, they did not survive for long (and never will in such a unnatural habitat and certainly not wilds). You also have no discus in Florida rivers and lakes, but many other South American cichlids and plecos - mainly peacock bass. Discus did not survive in Guyana (Jack saw it also), nor elsewhere but only in the Nanay, in Peru. It happened almost 30 years ago, simply because the Tefé discus introduced found exactly the same chemical water parameters as in Lake Tefé, were they had been collected from. It is the only place on Earth discus have survived and breed. Discus are not peacock bass, and much less tilapias, which you can today find from Canada to Hawai'i in Australia and New Zealand, throughout Asia, Central America, South America and even on most of the Indo-Pacific Islands (and I will not mention all here now). But less in Africa...
Another example is, because you mentioned it, other animals, such as monkeys and apes. I saw the re-introduce chimps in some African countries, the result was a disaster: the natives ate them all. The same I saw happening in Borneo with orang utangs, with gorillas in Africa and hauling monkeys in South American areas. None of those re-introduced have survived long. Or they died from predators they did not know, or from humans. The only few places were there are exception which have worked, is on some river islands in Gambia, in Sierra Leone, in the Republic of Congo and Ruanda. But ONLY because there are Europeans and/or Americans taking care of the animals 12 month out of the year. Once they are gone (those care-takers), the monkeys and apes are gone as well... Impossible for them to survive in todays remaining (small) nature world. Simply because people need to eat to survive and no animal is above a human being and no one in America or Europe (or Japan) will be able to change that, unless one goes and stays with those in nature - all the time. (You see the Gorilla-population now is at its brink of extinction also in the Congo, as people claim they need the jungle area left for cultivation and the native care-takers have been killed already... only in Ruanda the Gorilla-population has still a chance at this moment to survive... tourists are still coming paying 500 dollars for a 10-minute-visit in their habitat).
So the second question is: Where does one want to re-introduce the breeding stock to, even if their genetics are those of the wilds - the orginal stock? In order to guarantee survival? I.e. once the gigantic dam at the Xingu is finished and the zebra pleco extinct in nature and all its habitats history do you Steve, or anyone else, want to try to re-introduce tank breed stock into such an unnatural habitat and hope that they will acclimatize to it? I am convinced it will never work. Not with such delicate species. Tilapia will, peacock bass will, piranhas will - large predators have always a chance, until they eat them selfs... Discus almost never will have a chance, if they survive the predators will eat them as their defense mechanism is lost.
This is just one of hundreds of examples I could relate here - from around the world if you want. We protect (on paper at least) less than 3% of planet earth's nature, and even if those areas would really be protected (as most national parks and nature reserves in the tropics are farmlands, agricultural areas for the natives, cultivations of some kind or other, or some kind of a re-plantation site that never worked, or only as long as Americans, Europeans or Japanese stayed there...), than were to re-introduce them to with a small hope they live and can suvive...
Very difficult, if not impossible.

Last but not least, there are exceptions, that is for sure as otherwise all would be lost. But I cannot for see any improvement, simply because we are not doing anything at all to stop population explosion and that is what all grinds down to. Have also a look at (which is still not what we have on earth, but give you an idea what comes up...):
http://www.bbc.co.uk/schools/gcsebitesize/geography/population/popchangestructurerev2.shtml
So my advice is: buy wild fishes, breed and keep them stable and natural, do not hybridize them and enjoy them, and if you can keep this joy and this small peace of nature in your home or elsewhere, as long as you can and have your relatives and friends enjoy them as well. You can learn from those more than from any F10 tank breed generation or from hybrids. Same as with a German shepard or better a dingo or a wolf, he will teach you 100times more (and is much more intelligent) than a poodle (or whatever you call those mis-creatures of dogs, which have nothing to do with the original animal anymore... and is normally very dumb...). A hybrid goldfish is only able to swim in circles - if I show you a Carassius auratus, a natural 'goldfish', than you will see what I mean... the difference is not to believe.

Believe me,

Heiko Bleher

www.aquapress-bleher.com

Imperialdiscus

03-18-2008, 05:50 PM

Ok, I need to clarify something here as presumptions are being made as to my intent when I said re-introduction.

First off, I advocate a diverse captive breeding program to preserve the species and types that currently exist and may lose their habitat through over fishing, habitat destruction and the aforementioned dams.

I did not make specific comments on re-introduction in the wild, only that one eventual goal of captive conservation is the capability to provide livestock for future re-introduction, and the presumption seems to be that I am naive enough to think you can just dump bags of fish anywhere, which is most certainly not the case.

However we do not know what conservation or restoration efforts might take place in the future. 10 years from now, 20 or more. If there are no specimens of a type left, any future restoration project is rather pointless, leaving them just a picture in someones book.

So we can buy wild discus and enjoy them, people can cooperatively breed and trade bloodlines and maintain a type and hope that in the future, it will serve some better good.

yogi

03-18-2008, 11:22 PM

There has been a population of wild discus found in northwest Ecuador. They are browns with a prominent fifth bar. I can't give any more information at this time. Because to my knowledge the article on this find has not been released yet.

You are right that there are no wild discus in Florida. It gets to cold here for them. The non native fish division has some very detailed information on what non native fish exist here. They will give it out freely it tells you what canals or waterways almost every non native fish can be caught in. Some of the fish are very widespread while others are in specific locations only. They even have a once every five year cold line. They know which fish can survive what temperature and how far north each species can survive until they hit that once every five year cold spell.

There is a another threat to the Amazon region. They are beginning to find more and more coca fields in the Amazon. There was an article in The Miami Herald today about it.

Brian Mc

03-19-2008, 12:48 AM

Discus did not survive in Guyana (Jack saw it also),
Hi Heiko, are you referring to Jack Wattley's attempt to introduce his Coerulea strain in Suriname? Do you have any details of what happened, I have always wondered about that. I have greatly enjoyed your comments here even though it sounds pretty bleak for our future. Thank You.

Apistomaster

03-19-2008, 03:35 PM

Heiko Bleher

03-20-2008, 09:49 AM

Hi,

Brian, Jack told me that they all vanished - no more, did not survive. And when I was there last no one even knew about it anymore...

Yogi, I would like to see this article on Ecuadorian discus. Maybe people mean the Putumayo-discus, as it (the Putumayo) come from Ecuador and there might be a slight possibility that they went further upstream, but I dought it and also> there are greens and no browns...

And about the Coca plantation, that is a old hat (I wrote every detail about in in my book - ops, Mr Al will be mad as I mention it...). Larry reads very well, many species have become extinct after Mr Bush's 3-billion-dollar budget to spray all the coca fields in Colombia which resulted in millions of life forms becoming extinct, including fishes and (green) discus populations in the Putumayo area (maybe the reason why they migrated to Ecuador...). To try to stamp the out coca fields has only resulted in the following 3 things:
1. It killed most of the native flora and fauna;
2. the price of cocaine rose tremedously on the world market, and
3. the growers, to whom I talked and visited in Colombia, told me: "...it did do very little damage to our coca fields, less than 10% was destroyed, but now we are growing much more, beause of this de demand and price has increased very much and we make much bigger profits...".

So as I see it: US tax payers paid 3 billion (and more to come), just to increase coca production and to destroy the nature in the Amazon area of Colombia, and there is no end to it in sight... simply because of popular (increasing) demand. (But maybe that is all what they want: to be able to increase weapon production, to have more jobs and to have some billionairs to become trillioners.)

All the best,

Heiko
www.aquapress-bleher.com

Apistomaster

03-20-2008, 11:45 AM

I only disagree with a couple of things you wrote, Heiko.
The price of refined Cocaine hydrochloride is still cheap in the USA. Only about 25% of what is was in the early 1980's, especially after adjusting for inflation.
!980 price per kilo=$50,000 in 1980 dollars. 2008 price per kilo=$15,000 in 2008 dollars.
You are giving us far to much credit for our government's ability to to conspire to enhance our economy. The truth is we still think that drug production can be controlled but what know one seems to ever learn is that when to going gets tough, the tough get going. That is; the drug producers and suppliers are extremely adaptable as adversaries. This country is just extremely dense when it comes to figuring this out and we have always believed no problem is too big to not be solved if we throw enough money at it.
It would be better if we kept our money at home to deal with the problem and realize no problem in other countries is too big to walk away from.

Heiko Bleher

03-20-2008, 05:09 PM

Larry,

this (your statement) is the first time in my life, that I hear about drug prices, sorry I never knew and never want to know. I never took a drug and I never will. I only passed on what the growers told me, and they said they are getting ore money. And I believe them. I am sure a caboclo, nor a grower in Amazonia, knows the public price in the US of the refined product, nor elsewhere, were it is shipped to. Most of them are un-alfabets.

And that anyone will be able to stop it is believing in a fairy tale. Have a go at the film American Ganster, it is a true story...

But no fairy tale is the fact that millions of life forms are vanished because of these none-sense actions. And that is all I wanted to point out.

Good night

Heiko
www.aquapress-bleher.com

PS: if anyone come up with the idea of lifting the ban for drugs, we would have much, much, less problems in this world and price would drop and make it almost worthless growing and refining the stuff

YSS

03-20-2008, 07:13 PM

This is a very interesting thread. Very good discussions on various subjects. There was a thread at discusforums.com with the same topic and title, but very different discussion. I thought you may get a kick out of this.

http://www.discusforums.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=15392&highlight=

Apistomaster

03-21-2008, 09:34 AM

Like it has been for many families, I learned much about the drug business the hard way because my brother was a life long addict. We were very close confidents and I always knew what the trends were in the USA. A group of our high school class mates ran a very large cocaine distribution business in the Pacific NW during the early '80's and many in their mid to late 20's were sentenced to 15 to 20 years in Federal prison. One individual received a sentence of 40 years. They were all prosecuted under the Federal RICO statutes that are aimed at continuing criminal organized enterprises. Houses and two twin engine Cessna airplanes were seized.
My brother needed a place to stay about four years ago so I put him up. I found him dead one morning from an overdose. He was 52. I know he did not mean to die but illicit drugs vary enormously in purity. I tried to convince my brother that as a 52 year old man. his body could not process drugs as well as when he was young. But addicts don't listen to reason.
Cocaine prices dropped in this country for three main reasons. 1. Cheaper heroin. 2. Cocaine prices have dropped greatly over the years as the target customers shifted from the affluent to the poor and 3. cocaine has been largely been supplanted by cheaper methamphetamine which lasts much longer than cocaine's effects, giving more "bang for the buck." Only domestic marijuana prices have climbed but so has the potency of marijuana increased.
In spite of all this I still happen to think drug prohibition is a bankrupt strategy. Better to bring it out of the underground economy and assure purity and relative safety. Prohibition always allows a vast criminal underground to prosper and the drugs to be dangerously impure. Some people are always going to be addicts no matter what the laws are.

It looks like one must register with discusforums to view topic.

yogi

03-21-2008, 09:45 AM

Heiko, I'm going to send you a pm with the persons contact information about the discus in Ecuador. This way you can talk to him directly.

Apistomaster

03-21-2008, 10:28 AM

I used to receive a form of green discus that was generally just called Peruvian Greens that was rather plain looking and did not ever grow as large as other discus. This variety could be easily be mistaken for a brown discus because it had so little in the way of blue or green markings. The base body color is that of a some greens but it is not very green. Yet, they were a green discus, of that I have no doubt. I wonder if it is not this population that is being called a brown discus from Ecuador?

It has been many years since I have seen them until last year, a friend in the UK bought six specimens and sent me photos of his fish. They were the same discus I used to receive. He was becoming concerned because they were not growing very large despite their obvious good health.

It is the only wild discus type, with which I'm familiar, that I did not see in Heiko's new book. I will ask Rupert to send me some photos of his fish again and see if I can get permission to post them here or register and post them himself.

Heiko Bleher

03-22-2008, 08:12 PM

Hi,

yes I would like to see also photos of the "Ecuador" discus. And more precise location-information.

Larry, sorry for your brother, I really will never understand why people need to take drugs (or want to), as I never will understand why people need (or want) to smoke (that is also why I live in Italy - smoke free country..).

Resuming: life is so short, why do I have to shorten it even more? And there is still no one out there, who was able to prove up to this minute, that by taking drugs, smoking or that overweight people live longer and healthier... (but naturally anyone can doe what he pleases, I do not condemn anyone, just I will not do it... I preferre to collect fishes until my last day).

Best regards

Heiko Bleher
wwww.aquapress-bleher.com

Apistomaster

03-22-2008, 09:52 PM

Thank you, Heiko. What happened came as no surprise.

yogi

03-23-2008, 06:10 PM

Heiko, I sent you back on the 21st the guys name, email and cell phone number. If you didn't receive it let me know.

Ichthyology

03-23-2008, 07:48 PM

There was an article in the April '08 issue of FAMA written by Tony Siva about the Ecuadorian discus. The discus were released into a lake from someones collection (both wild S.d. and S.a.)....

Ichthyology

03-23-2008, 07:49 PM

Sorry...author was Tony SILVA

Heiko Bleher

03-24-2008, 06:42 PM

Hi,

this is Heiko and I wanted to thank Jerry and also Anthony.

I just thought that, introduced, just as in the Nanay. Discus never went that far up river.

Anthony, if you have a copy (or photocopy) of the article you send it to my address, which i am sure you have (is also at the bottom of my website - home). I would like to know more about it.

Best regards

Heiko
www.aquapress-bleher.com

plecocicho

03-24-2008, 08:41 PM

Anthony could you send me that article about ecuadorian discus on my private messages?
lp

Apistomaster

03-24-2008, 11:17 PM

Hi Anthony,
Transplanting S. haraldi to some place in Ecuador makes more sense. The Blue/Brown discus have are the most adaptable discus species. They would only not be likely to adjust to a black water environment.

Ichthyology

03-25-2008, 01:39 AM

will make a pdf copy and send to all those who requested it.. If I forget to do it tomorrow, please e-mail me to remind me... I am old and picked up to many parasites in the amazon in January....

Ichthyology

03-25-2008, 01:41 AM

Heiko, of course I have your e-mail.... I sdid get two e-mails from you this morning!!!! Maybe it is you who picked up the parasites!!! :):)

Imperialdiscus

03-25-2008, 02:03 PM

will make a pdf copy and send to all those who requested it.. If I forget to do it tomorrow, please e-mail me to remind me... I am old and picked up to many parasites in the amazon in January....

Hey I would certainly like a copy as well.

Right now Wild Discus are pretty much my top priority

yogi

03-25-2008, 10:12 PM

Sorry if I confused anyone. I never said the discus found in Ecuador were native. You guys were talking about people transplanting discus and whether they took to the new location. That is why I mentioned the browns in Ecuador. Just like the RSG's are in Iquitos. Some people say the reason the Nhamunda discus are such hybrids is because of all the transplanted discus in that area. Heiko I f you read this would you say there are more wild hybrid discus today than there were 35 years ago? And if yes it's because of all the discus that have been moved around by humans both intentionally and unintentionally? Also Anthony do you have any opinions on these questions from your travels? thanks,

plecocicho

03-26-2008, 07:40 PM

Thanks for the article, Anthony!:). A few questions arose reading through the article. Do you know water prameters of those creeks? What other sympatric species live there? Suppose these are hybrids of real and common (blue/brown) discus, should not be that population doomed as it is known that hybrids between those species soon become sterille?
lp

Gordon C. Snelling

03-26-2008, 11:00 PM

Id like a copy as well if possible.

Heiko Bleher

03-28-2008, 01:27 PM

Hi,

this is Heiko and I want to thank Anthony for the copy. As I thought, introduced or someone just dumped the aquarium with the fishes in the nearest waterhole, after the owner died... And as Larry already said and from what I read, those must have been browns and/or blues.

Sad story.

With regards to Nhamundà, those are definitely not introduced, I was there before anyone else and no commerce or collecting existed at the time. No one had collected any fish before me (except for peacock bass, and other eatable fishes).

But with the regards to natural hybrids there are two sides to this story:
1. As explained in detail in our scientific paper of the revision of the genus Symphysodon from 1. August 2007 (see www.aqua-aquapress.com) hybridization takes place in some areas when during extreme high water levels (floods) two species meet, and some of the researched areas are mentioned )also in my book).
2. Naturally it could have happened, like when a disqueiro has carried nearly 100,000 wild discus on a barge along 1200 km down river the Purus up to Manacapuru, that some of those escaped, and mixed eventually with other populations, but that is all one and the same species (S. haraldi - blues or browns). It is nearly impossible to think that this happened with Heckel discus or green discus, as both come from extreme water parameters and they would not survive long in the waters of the browns or blues...

I hope this answers your question (in short) for the moment...

all the very best

Heiko Bleher
www.aquapress-bleher.com