Interesting evolutionary thoughts on discus

[brewmaster15]

HI all,
We have a routine on Sunday Nights here....we Pop up some popcorn and watch "Nature" as a Family ...My kids love it and its great info....anyhow... this last sunday they were exploring the evolution of wolves to dogs and the rapid explosion of the various dog breeds in the short time of human civilization... Very interesting theories....but one that really got me thinking is based on the Breeding of Foxes in Russia for fur ....

I guess the research started decades ago at a fur farm and is now also a research institute.... They bred these foxes for fur but they were wild animals and often very ill tempered... and poor breeders because of it...so they decided to try to breed them to be more docile... they basically sorted the Foxes.... if the fox tried to bite them or cringed away they did not breed them...if the wild animal allowed them close...theybred them...

In a few short generations the results were amazing...not only did they domesticate the Foxes to the point that behaved much like dogs..but more relevent to my thoughts...They Physically changed...They actually started throwing pups of different colors and other traits.... all this by selectively breeding animals that allowed Humans closer..

So the relevance to discus... maybe none.. But if you look at the amazing range of patterns in the domestics today....after really what is a terribly short period of time...It really makes me wonder if when we select for color, shape, and eye size...we set the stage for unexpected Colors to result or other mutations.. in response to this..

It also makes me wonder why in nature...wild discus are so variable in color and pattern for the few species they represent...perhaps it is their response to Nature's selection on a very simplified scale.

I'm probably rambling but if you saw the Foxes response to that one simple selection criteria they used...its not a stretch to see it in play in other creatures..

-al

[Fern]

Yep, I have seen it several times and I never turn the channel. "Nova" did something similar and the BBC. Nothing like Nature.

Al, I do not remember which show, but it was about reptiles and fishes that are capable of changing their sex when needed, I wonder is Discus have that ability? :)

[geleen]

"In a few short generations the results were amazing...not only did they domesticate the Foxes to the point that behaved much like dogs..but more relevent to my thoughts...They Physically changed...They actually started throwing pups of different colors and other traits.... all this by selectively breeding animals that allowed "Humans closer.".

When one removes the aggressors and the fear biters, likely we are changing the gene pool dramatically, allowing animals to reproduce that would not in nature due to "pecking order." The result could well be different color but what about the changes we do not see immediately? If all you want is better fur and easy handling, that is relatively easy.

"It really makes me wonder if when we select for color, shape, and eye size...we set the stage for unexpected Colors to result or other mutations.. in response to this.."

Having bred dogs extensively, I know that it is not that easy to produce an animal to your liking on all fronts. In my experience selecting for one trait will cause you a lot of grief later on in the breeding program.
But I guess most breeders know or find out sooner or later and pay the price either through culling or heartache. Worse with unscrupulous or novice breeders the consumer pays the price.
The price for beauty is high!
John

[Terrybo]

If all you want is better fur and easy handling, that is relatively easy

I remember reading about this Russian fur farm in a magazine back in the 80's. Interestingly, the experiment was a commercial flop, because the friendly dog-like foxes had rather unattractive mottled looking fur. (Which is a good thing for those foxes)!

Terry

[brewmaster15]

Heres a link to the Experiments...

http://reactor-core.org/taming-foxes.html


You have to read thru alot of it as they were looking to domesticate.....but the parts I am referring to are the color changes..and physical traits...


Other physical changes mirror those in dogs and other domesticated animals. In our foxes, novel traits began to appear in the eighth to tenth selected generations. The first ones we noted were changes in the foxes' coat color, chiefly a loss of pigment in certain areas of the body, leading in some cases to a star-shaped pattern on the face similar to that seen in some breeds of dog. Next came traits such as floppy ears and rolled tails similar to those in some breeds of dog. After 15 to 20 generations we noted the appearance of foxes with shorter tails and legs and with underbites or overbites. The novel traits are still fairly rare. Most of them show up in no more than a few animals per 100 to a few per 10,000. Some have been seen in commercial populations, though at levels at least a magnitude lower than we recorded in our domesticated foxes.


As you read it....those of you that have been in discus a bit... think of the parallels to what we do with discus.

-al

[Mick B]

Or was it due to,
Humans gave those colour variations value, and further selected based on that mutation
But
The same coulour variations, may be thrown in Nature (their enviroment) but may have been detrimental and they got eaten, coz they stand out, or kicked them out of the breeding cycle, coz they were percieved by the group to be 'not viable mates'?:confused:

[alpine]

Since we have spent many years breeding dogs we were very interested in the part of the documentary that show the hunting pack instinct of the wolf and the close resemblance of the hearding instinct of the Border Collie dogs with sheep. It was very interesting how the wolf circle the bufalo and bison to make them heard tighly together, then picked an individual , got it away from the heard and then went for the kill , just like the border collie make the sheep heard tightly together and then move the herd to where the master desires.

roberto.

[bavaria36]

Al,

is it possible that the genes for non -aggression and those for colour are linked ( close together on the same chromosome ) ? Just a guess of course but if that was the case then selection for the non-aggression gene could also put selection pressure on a variable colour gene if one of the foxes originally chosen had a gene for non -standard colour.

As for discus, I think that the wide range of colours and patterns is due to an incredibly strong selection pressure by the breeders. Compared to the far more subtle selection pressure in nature we must be thousands of times more effective. I wonder if anyone has estimated the number of generations that were bred to produce lets say the first blue diamonds and compare that to the number of generations bred to produce the first koi for example. Would the numbers be similar ??

Aaron

[Ardan]

Hi Al,
Interesting article.:)

[QUOTE][Another major evolutionary consequence of domestication is loss of the seasonal rhythm of reproduction/QUOTE]

Do discus in the wild have a certain spawning pattern? Certain weather, rainy.....? More so at certain times of the yr?

I don't know if its been studied, but this article made me wonder that.

There has been an explosion of colors and varying discus in a short amount of time. What will another decade bring?

Ardan