Please advise!

[cschwaderer]

3 of my breeder pairs have been having problems over the past month and just when I think it's over, it happens again! Please, please, help - it's driving me bonkers.

The pairs live in 23 gallon tanks and are fed San Fran bay beefheart in the morning, then 2-3 more feedings of a variety of Hikari frozen bloodworms and frozen brine shrimp. Temperature at 84 degrees. Change around 20-40% of the water daily after the morning beefheart meal.

About a month ago, a couple of my Blue Diamonds in different breeding tanks turned very dark, fins kind of clamped, but stools were brown - no white stringy things. They ate fine, but twitched fins a lot dashed, rubbed against things. No nitrates nitrites, ammonia in the water. Treated for gill flukes with no change and finally decided it was bacterial because of cloudy eyes, etc. Treated for 5 days with Maracyn & Maracyn II together. All fish were back to their beautiful, wonderful selves. In the meantime, I completely drained their tanks, left them dry for that period (and sponge filters dried).

I filled up the breeder tanks and a couple days later put the three pairs back into their tanks. Two pairs immediately bred. On the third day, one of the females had turned dark again exhibiting the same symptoms. A couple days later another female exhibited the same symptoms. Today, the male of the third pair is exhibiting the same symptoms.

What's different now is look at the pictures below - they have small pin-sized holes in their foreheads. Is this the start of hole-in-the-head?? Is it possible that even if no ammonia, nitrites, or nitrates are in the water, and I'm changing water daily (the breeder tanks have never been this clean before!) that the sponge filter isn't doing it's job in another way? Maybe the beefheart/bloodworm/brine shrimp regimine isn't enough nutrition which I've heard could be a cause of hole in the head?

They are back in the hospital tank and I'm treating with Maracyn I and II again. Think this is the right course of action?? Suggest a different one?

Please help!!! I'm at my wit's end with this!

Discus #1 -Zeus - He's got those trios of dots above and just behind the eyes:
http://i68.photobucket.com/albums/i30/cschwaderer/IMG_0226.jpg


Discus #2 - Bluebird - she's got three spots
http://i68.photobucket.com/albums/i30/cschwaderer/IMG_0231.jpg


Athena - she seems to have the worst case:

http://i68.photobucket.com/albums/i30/cschwaderer/IMG_0232.jpg

[Diamond Discus]

It doesn't look like hole in the head to me?? At least not what I thought it would look like?? I really don't know?? Hopefully someone else will have seen this Curt. I'm sorry you are having these recurring problems.

Sue

[Diamond Discus]

http://forum.simplydiscus.com/search.php?searchid=493301

here is a search

[Diamond Discus]

OK, I looked around online too and it does look like hole in the head. In this article
http://www.peteducation.com/article.cfm?cls=16&cat=1791&articleid=2586
They stated a flagellate parasite called as one possible cause. Here is what I know to treat Hex:

Metronidazole Treatment :
Effective treatment for Spironucleus Symphysondonis (Internal Flagellates) Or hexamita. Commen symptoms : - Spitting out food, White stringy feces, Nervousness / skittish behavior.Weight loss, Fish directed towards back of the tank & hiding. No appetite.
Treatment :- 300 Mgs per 10 gallons of water Heating up to 90 degree's. You may add Epsom salts 1 teaspoon per 10 gallons - With addition of 25 to 50% water changes before each dose. This dose maybe repeat 2x daily morning and nite Metronidazole will lose its effectiveness within 8 hours.
For a stubborn case - Use 500mgs per 10 gal 2x daily. These treatments should continue for 5 days.
In Food : - If you're fish are still eating you may dose the food 100 mgs per 1 oz of food. Mix in well allow 10 minutes for it to soak up, feed twice daily for 5 days. Any un-used foods should be stored in the freezer not the fridge as the medication will lose its effectiveness.
(Omit the higher temperatures for heat sensitive fish)

If anyone else wants to pipe in...Please do!!

[Ardan]

Here is some good info and discussion on HITH.
http://forum.simplycichlids.com/showthread.php?t=842

hth
Ardan

[White Worm]

Depending on how you do your w/c's, you may try doing large w/c's every other day like 75-90%. You are only changing 5-9g of water which really doesnt seem like it would keep things clean. An adult pair will dirty the tank quickly in a 23g. They were fine when they entered the tank when it was all brand new water and then they went down hill as you stayed with 5-9g w/c's? Dirty water can be the cause of HITH. Just because you have 0 ammonia, and 0 nitrites, that doesnt mean you have clean water. With 0 nitrates, you are most likely not cycled. Up the water change % and see how they react. JMO.

[judy]

It is HITH, and you do need to treat with metro-- and use the 500 mg dosage, do it three times daily for three days solid, keep the lights out in the tank (mero degrades on exposure to light), raise the tank temp to 92 degrees if you can, and add aeration-- both the metro and the heat will drive off oxygen. metro degrades in eight hours at that temp. do a WC just before each dosing.
If they are still eating, feed medicated food in addition to the water column med.

[Diamond Discus]

Here is some good info and discussion on HITH.
http://forum.simplycichlids.com/showthread.php?t=842

hth
ArdanThanks for the additional information Ardan. I may have to register over there so I can see the pics. ;)


Depending on how you do your w/c's, you may try doing large w/c's every other day like 75-90%. You are only changing 5-9g of water which really doesnt seem like it would keep things clean. An adult pair will dirty the tank quickly in a 23g. They were fine when they entered the tank when it was all brand new water and then they went down hill as you stayed with 5-9g w/c's? Dirty water can be the cause of HITH. Just because you have 0 ammonia, and 0 nitrites, that doesnt mean you have clean water. With 0 nitrates, you are most likely not cycled. Up the water change % and see how they react. JMO.Also great information, thanks.


It is HITH, and you do need to treat with metro-- and use the 500 mg dosage, do it three times daily for three days solid, keep the lights out in the tank (mero degrades on exposure to light), raise the tank temp to 92 degrees if you can, and add aeration-- both the metro and the heat will drive off oxygen. metro degrades in eight hours at that temp. do a WC just before each dosing.
If they are still eating, feed medicated food in addition to the water column med.Sounds like we all agree about treatment. :)

[judy]

Just to clairfy, when I said three times daiy, I meant every eight hours: 11PM. nine AM, five pm is usually a workable time frame. But remove your other medication first, filter it out using carbon. then take the carbon out before medicating with the metro. If you can only get metro tablets, crush it up as finely as you can in a little tank water (I used a hand wand blender) before adding.
the water change befor the dose can be from 25 per cent to a third: part of the goal is to add oxygen there as well as provide clean water.

[cschwaderer]

Thanks so much to everyone for all the advice and links. It's reassuring to me that there are so many great people on this site willing to lend a helping hand when needed!

I also came across a Barrons book on Discus and found some pictures and discussion of what they call "Head and Lateral Line Erosion (HLLE)" which they claim is a more accurate name for HITH. The pictures showed the early stages which look exactly like the pictures I posted and confirmed by you folks!

Based on reading all the information provided here, other places on-line, and in books, here is what I can piece together:

1. HITH(HLLE) is a nutritional deficiency symptom. The parasites themselves don't cause the holes (a couple resources mentioned there have never been any parasites found in the holes themselves), but instead live in the digestive tract or flesh and rob the fish of nutrients causing HITH.

2. HITH can also be caused by malnutrition. Feeding the Discus soley pure beefheart without other necessary vitamins & minerals causes HITH.

Now for my particular case. Previous to the pin-sized holes showing up, the fish were showing the following symptoms:

1. Flashing, rapidly twitching fins, occasional rubbing against their flowerpot. Nervous and hiding in the back of the tank.
2. Later stages turning dark (almost black), pectoral fin clamped against the side. Partially clamped fins. But still eating well and no stringy, white feces.
3. Now small pin-sized holes around the eyes and forehead.

Another item of note is that one of these pairs had a batch and over 50% of the juveniles had some kind of fin/body deformity. Responses to my post on that problem mentioned this can occur if there are a lack of vitamins or minerals. So maybe the adults' mucous is affected and therefore not nutritious enough for the fry causing this even though the adults were showing no symptoms? Maybe this was an early sign that there were problems (my speculation).

The foods I feed all have stabilized vitamins and minerals for the fish and the ColorBits are probably the most nutritious food for Discus you can get. So despite the absence of the white stringy feces part, I can only conclude that the root problem is parasites.

Maybe the lack of white stringy feces indicates the parasites are in the flesh of some of these fish instead of the digestive tract?

From reading the links and posts here, it sounds like the common thread is to treat with metronidazole. Another additional treatment is to use garlic in the food if they are still eating. I do have some GarlicGuard and will try soaking the foods in that in addition to the metro.

There was some discussion on-line as to whether to treat 10 days at 250mg per 10 gallons or treat 3 days at 500 mg. I think I'll start with Judy's advice and do the 3-day thing at 500mg/10 gallons.

So where is the best place to get metro? I've heard you need a prescription in the US. Maybe a vet can help?

Thanks so much!
Curt

[cschwaderer]

Just to clairfy, when I said three times daiy, I meant every eight hours: 11PM. nine AM, five pm is usually a workable time frame. But remove your other medication first, filter it out using carbon. then take the carbon out before medicating with the metro. If you can only get metro tablets, crush it up as finely as you can in a little tank water (I used a hand wand blender) before adding.
the water change befor the dose can be from 25 per cent to a third: part of the goal is to add oxygen there as well as provide clean water.

Thanks - let me see if I have this right:
1. Large water change, temp up to around 90, increase oxygen flow, add 500mg metro per 10 gallons.
2. Change 1/3 of the water. Use a carbon filter (is 1/2 hour long enough?) to completely remove the initial dose. re-treat the entire gallonage of the tank (not just the 1/3 of the water that was changed). Do this every 8 hours for 3 days.

If the fish will eat, put a little metro in the food.

Do I have it right?

[judy]

Not quite. You will only use carbon before you begin the regimen, to remove all traces of previous meds. Give that at least four hours. Then begin the metro regimen. Raise the tank temp slowly (start while you're pulling out the other meds) to at least 90. If there are no other fish that might be adversely affected, 92 is even better. The rest you got perfect: every eight hours add 500 mg per ten gallons, with a 1/3 WC just prior to re-dosing. Lights out all the time. While treating you don't need to worry about using carbon, as the metro degrades to non-existent by the end of that eight hour treatment.
Jungle Labs makes a metro medicated food; if you can get that, it would be good. If not, try soaking bloodworms in a metro solution, or take some tetra color bits, mush them up in a bit of tank water, with a little powedered metro added, flatten out the resulting goop, freeze it, and toss in small chunks for the fish to eat.
You may extened this treatment to a fourth day, but no more than that. Then, big, big water change and keep on doing WCs religiously.
If need be, and if you just want to be really, really sure, you can do the whole thing over again in a couple of weeks. But give them two weeks to recover from their first treatment.
BTW, this regimen comes from other, much wiser Simply Discus heads than mine-- and thanks to them as it sure worked for my precious babies...

[Diamond Discus]

I get my metro from Rocky Mountain Discus _scroll down on this link-
http://rockymountaindiscus.com/Food_and_medications.htm

and I have gotten it from Angels plus as well
http://www.angelsplus.com/Meds.htm

I like both places products: RMDiscus sells a bag of pure Metro powder and Angels Plus has the capsules which have expiration dates on the bottles.

[cschwaderer]

I just want to verify the dosage - Judy's post says 500mg per 10 gallons for 3 days. The directions on the metro says 500mg per 20 gallons for 5 days. Which should I do?

Thanks,
Curt

[judy]

use 500 mg per ten gallons. the double dose is what many experienced discus keepers use to make sure the hex is knocked down for good, and what was recommended to me. Apparently, many have found the dose of 500 per 20 just doesn't seem to do the trick. You'll see the dosing advice on the bottle also does not recommened the 3x daily dose either.
I can attest the double dose did not hurt mine at all-- as long as you remember the additional aeration (they'll need the oxygen necause both the med and heat will decrease the O2 in the water). In fact, mine are the healthiest discus (now) that I have ever had. And growing like crazy, they are...

[pcsb23]

HITH is rarely fatal. Often times it can be reversed without recourse to meds, it takes a little time, patience and dedication but it is achievable.

At this stage I would NOT treat with any anti-biotic. In my view we jump far too quickly to the medicine cabinet. I would increase w/c's to reduce the background pathogens and DOC's and I would introduce a higher mineral and vitamin content into their diets. Red wrigglers are an exceptional food for this type of thing as is fbw, mysis ad mussels, if you can add some multivitamins into beefheart that works well too. Diet and good husbandry can in most, if not all, cases like this resolve the situation and your fish will be the better for it.

[White Worm]

Depending on how you do your w/c's, you may try doing large w/c's every other day like 75-90%. You are only changing 5-9g of water which really doesnt seem like it would keep things clean. An adult pair will dirty the tank quickly in a 23g. They were fine when they entered the tank when it was all brand new water and then they went down hill as you stayed with 5-9g w/c's? Dirty water can be the cause of HITH. Just because you have 0 ammonia, and 0 nitrites, that doesnt mean you have clean water. With 0 nitrates, you are most likely not cycled. Up the water change % and see how they react. JMO.


HITH is rarely fatal. Often times it can be reversed without recourse to meds, it takes a little time, patience and dedication but it is achievable.

At this stage I would NOT treat with any anti-biotic. In my view we jump far too quickly to the medicine cabinet. I would increase w/c's to reduce the background pathogens and DOC's and I would introduce a higher mineral and vitamin content into their diets. Red wrigglers are an exceptional food for this type of thing as is fbw, mysis ad mussels, if you can add some multivitamins into beefheart that works well too. Diet and good husbandry can in most, if not all, cases like this resolve the situation and your fish will be the better for it.
I agree, its better to have a clean environment first with some illnesses and go from there with the addition of a good healthy diet. There are steps in the process and most forget that clean water is usually the underlying cause of stress and illness in the first place which allows these opportunistic illnesses to manifest. There is time and place for meds but understanding cause and effect will benefit you later. Even if you used meds and they got better, your water quality would soon have them sick again.

[cschwaderer]

I agree, its better to have a clean environment first with some illnesses and go from there with the addition of a good healthy diet. There are steps in the process and most forget that clean water is usually the underlying cause of stress and illness in the first place which allows these opportunistic illnesses to manifest. There is time and place for meds but understanding cause and effect will benefit you later. Even if you used meds and they got better, your water quality would soon have them sick again.

I would agree as well, but how long is long enough? This is week 6 that I've been dealing with their degrading health. I've fed these pairs a daily variety of Hikari fbw, SF Bay beefheart plus, SF Bay frozen brine shrimp for the last 6 months, done healthy water changes daily since the onset of symptoms, and they seem to be getting steadily worse (although I have 2 pairs that show none of these symptoms and seem happy, etc). Then Sunday the pinholes show up. What's so frustrating is that for the last month my breeder tanks have never been cleaner and they're getting worse :confused:

[judy]

If you;ve been doing large daily WCs for that long and you still have the problem worsening, I'd say it's time to bing on the meds.

[White Worm]

Change around 20-40% of the water daily after the morning beefheart meal.

I filled up the breeder tanks and a couple days later put the three pairs back into their tanks. Two pairs immediately bred. On the third day, one of the females had turned dark again exhibiting the same symptoms. A couple days later another female exhibited the same symptoms. Today, the male of the third pair is exhibiting the same symptoms.

I'm changing water daily (the breeder tanks have never been this clean before!)


Somewhere I missed that you were doing large w/c's daily. :confused: 5-9g w/c after feeding all those foods including beefheart (2 adults in 23g) is really not that much water. I am just using the obvious facts here. Tank full of clean water = breeding behavior, a few days go by and many are showing signs of stress. A few more days and it gets worse. In a small breeder tank, your organics will build up regardless of how clean it "looks". If meds are your decision, fine. Never said they shouldnt be used..just said you should probably find the cause which is most likely water related. If you have tried 60-70% w/c's daily already, your tank is cycled properly and things have gotten worse, then by all means, it may be time to intervene with a different approach. I just didnt get that from what I read. Good luck.

[cschwaderer]

Somewhere I missed that you were doing large w/c's daily. :confused: 5-9g w/c after feeding all those foods including beefheart (2 adults in 23g) is really not that much water. I am just using the obvious facts here. Tank full of clean water = breeding behavior, a few days go by and many are showing signs of stress. A few more days and it gets worse. In a small breeder tank, your organics will build up regardless of how clean it "looks". If meds are your decision, fine. Never said they shouldnt be used..just said you should probably find the cause which is most likely water related. If you have tried 60-70% w/c's daily already, your tank is cycled properly and things have gotten worse, then by all means, it may be time to intervene with a different approach. I just didnt get that from what I read. Good luck.

I also use the test strips instead of the liquid kits and have been told recently that you don't get accurate ammonia and nitrite readings from them. They've always come up 0 and 0 on the strip, but maybe that's simply inaccurate.

I also wasn't specific enough on my water changing regiment. Looking back at my notes, tt first started about 6 weeks ago with the female of one pair. From that time on, that pair have been getting 75% - 90% water changes. But they actually looked more stressed after the water changes. I have a 160 gallon storage tank where I age the water 24 hours before using. Air bubbles through it and it has a heater. It's got a sump pump in the bottom that connects to piping overhead and there are faucets over each tank. I also started using Prime a few weeks ago from a recommendation from a friend thinking maybe the water company changed water parameters or maybe there was still chlorine in the water that's stressing them. Also wondered if maybe there was bacteria somehow in the storage tank. Then when the 2nd, then 3rd pairs started showing symptoms, they also started getting 50-75% water changes, although they didn't react adversely to the water change.

Man, you keep Discus for over 6 years with little or no issues, then all of a sudden things go to heck in a handbasket!

Thanks again to everyone for your recommendations!

Curt

[judy]

oh, yeah-- just when you think you have it figured out, along comes a ridiculously fast curve ball...

[Diamond Discus]

oh, yeah-- just when you think you have it figured out, along comes a ridiculously fast curve ball...You got that right!! :bomb:

[cschwaderer]

Now that the solution has been found, I thought I'd follow up with what the deal was...

So you don't have to read all the posts, my pairs were turning dark and getting the pin-holes which is the beginning of HITH in their foreheads. I was changing water daily, sometimes twice, decided to medicate everyone with metro and de-wormer. When I started to put the pairs back after treatment a couple weeks ago, I started getting the same problem again!

Well, I happened to visit a Discus-friend's place over a weekend, and noticed he had powerheads on all his sponge filters and bubbles like crazy. I asked him and he mentioned Discus, like all fish, do better in well aereated water.

When I got home, I increased the air to all my tanks and lo and behold! Within an hour, the dark Discus were bright blue and a dormant pair even spawned that evening!

I had the air set in the 25 gallon tanks so probably 10 bubbles broke the surface at any given time. I increased this so probably30-40 bubbles are breaking the surface - quite a lot of air. And it makes a world of difference!

So, sometimes its not always the water quality - it can also be the aereation as well!

Curt