I'm not sure what's wrong with my discus

[toddsmith7378]

Problem

1. Please explain the problems with your fish/when and how they started

I thought I saw white feces over the course of a couple of weeks (not too much, but here and there), so I treated tank with 3 (days 1,3,6) metro tabs, then realized that without removing carbon I was probably blocking therapeutic effects. Then a week later treated 7 days in a row with pure powder metro no carbon. 6th day or so, I noticed one fish looked like his face was looking chafy white on forehead, and losing slime coat. Lots of new bacteria growing in tank, so I was worried about 2ndary bacterial infection.

I took that particular fish and put him into a 10 gallon quarantine tank (treated with salt for one day), then treated with Maracyn for 7 days (per instructions) also another 4 days metro.

Fish did not die or get worse, but stayed about the same. I noticed a little bit of one of his fins had a little jaggedness in one spot, but not sure if this had always been there.

I changed 50% of water daily (at least) while treating fish, but had no used filter media to filter water. (I only have one main tank, and had no other option)

I thought my PH had been really low, during original metro treatment in main tank, so I've been making sure to keep it up w/water changes and buffer.

I just put sick fish back in regular tank with others, since I'm just not sure what he needs and metro and maracyn treatments seemed complete (per instructions). He still has white chafy looking forehead, and is really dark, but seems a little happier back in regular tank.

2. Symptoms (i.e. turning dark, excess slime, not eating, clamped fins, flashing, darting, clamped gills, white/yellow/green poop, hiding, headstanding or tailstanding, white on tips of fins, rotting or fungus, blisters/ white zits on fish, bloated, cloudy eyes, wounds)


-turning dark, excess slime, not eating (much, if at all), no more white poop. Always liked to hide. Not zits or blisters, but chafy looking forehead.


3. What medications/ treatments that you have already tried and results. Include dosages and duration of treatment.

see previous.



Tank/Water

40 gallon, 3 other fish. 2 adult, one juvenile.

4. Tank size and age, number and size of fish

Tank is several months old. This fish is largest, 5 inches, 2 four inch discus, and one 3 inch.

5. Water change regime/ how long has tank been running/ bare bottom or gravel/ do you age your water?

2 sword plants, siamese algae eater, 4 rummynose tetra. I change water 30-40% once per week, but have been 2-3 times for the past month.

6 Parameters and water source;

- temp _____83.8 regular (now), 90 when treating.

- ph _____6.2, but I'm trying to bring this up more. I use de-ionized water and Kent R/O Right, discus essential, and have recently begun adding some seacham buffuer (after fish were sick), I thought my ph might have been getting too low.

- ammonia reading ____0

- nitrite reading ____0

- nitrate reading ____20

- well water ____no

- municipal water ____local water supply, through de-ionizing filter

7. Any new fish/plants added recently - no


-also, I just noticed him getting picked on a little by one of the other fish, and he has decided to stay up near the top of the tank slightly on his side.

[White Worm]

Problem

1. Please explain the problems with your fish/when and how they started

I thought I saw white feces over the course of a couple of weeks (not too much, but here and there), so I treated tank with 3 (days 1,3,6) metro tabs, then realized that without removing carbon I was probably blocking therapeutic effects. Then a week later treated 7 days in a row with pure powder metro no carbon. 6th day or so, I noticed one fish looked like his face was looking chafy white on forehead, and losing slime coat. Lots of new bacteria growing in tank, so I was worried about 2ndary bacterial infection.

I took that particular fish and put him into a 10 gallon quarantine tank (treated with salt for one day), then treated with Maracyn for 7 days (per instructions) also another 4 days metro.

Fish did not die or get worse, but stayed about the same. I noticed a little bit of one of his fins had a little jaggedness in one spot, but not sure if this had always been there.

I changed 50% of water daily (at least) while treating fish, but had no used filter media to filter water. (I only have one main tank, and had no other option)

I thought my PH had been really low, during original metro treatment in main tank, so I've been making sure to keep it up w/water changes and buffer.

I just put sick fish back in regular tank with others, since I'm just not sure what he needs and metro and maracyn treatments seemed complete (per instructions). He still has white chafy looking forehead, and is really dark, but seems a little happier back in regular tank.

2. Symptoms (i.e. turning dark, excess slime, not eating, clamped fins, flashing, darting, clamped gills, white/yellow/green poop, hiding, headstanding or tailstanding, white on tips of fins, rotting or fungus, blisters/ white zits on fish, bloated, cloudy eyes, wounds)


-turning dark, excess slime, not eating (much, if at all), no more white poop. Always liked to hide. Not zits or blisters, but chafy looking forehead.


3. What medications/ treatments that you have already tried and results. Include dosages and duration of treatment.

see previous.



Tank/Water

40 gallon, 3 other fish. 2 adult, one juvenile.

4. Tank size and age, number and size of fish

Tank is several months old. This fish is largest, 5 inches, 2 four inch discus, and one 3 inch.

5. Water change regime/ how long has tank been running/ bare bottom or gravel/ do you age your water?

2 sword plants, siamese algae eater, 4 rummynose tetra. I change water 30-40% once per week, but have been 2-3 times for the past month.

6 Parameters and water source;

- temp _____83.8 regular (now), 90 when treating.

- ph _____6.2, but I'm trying to bring this up more. I use de-ionized water and Kent R/O Right, discus essential, and have recently begun adding some seacham buffuer (after fish were sick), I thought my ph might have been getting too low.

- ammonia reading ____0

- nitrite reading ____0

- nitrate reading ____20

- well water ____no

- municipal water ____local water supply, through de-ionizing filter

7. Any new fish/plants added recently - no


-also, I just noticed him getting picked on a little by one of the other fish, and he has decided to stay up near the top of the tank slightly on his side.

Honestly, I think you are going through alot of trouble that may not be needed. Initially, you should have been changing more than 30-40% once a week in a 40g. White feces does not always mean illness. What do you feed? You thought you saw? It seems like this fish has been through some serious med treatments and probably just needs a break. Even 50% in a non-cycled 10g is not too good while going through med treatment. At this point, stop trying to adjust your water with every chemical known and stop using every med on hand. You need to make sure your tank is cycled still and just keep the water clean like 80% w/c's every other day. You should also keep your temp near 86-88. What are your tap water parameters before adjustment? Your pH is fine as long as its stable. Discus do not react well to you constantly changing their pH. You are making this way more difficult than it really is. JMO

[toddsmith7378]

I feed tetra bits, Omega one super color flakes, Hikari Brine Shrimp and bloodworms. I just started soaking in Kent Zoe.

Well, the discus breeder mentioned that he treated with metro every 3 months or so, as preventative maintenance for HTH. So, after owning the fish a couple of months, and noticing white feces and specs (that did get a little bigger on the head), I decided to go ahead and treat with metro tablets.

This fish also always seemed to hide in the aquarium. I thought he was probably coming down with HTH and it couldn't hurt to treat. I am somewhat of a newbie, and maybe over-reacted, but I wasn't sure and felt I would try my best to keep the fish healthy.

My first tabs of metro probably were not useful because I didn't take out my carbon in the filter, so I bought some pure metro powder. It was during this 2nd treatment, I panicked when I saw him shedding slime and becoming really dark in color. I also noticed that there was bacteria proliferating (probably a result of metro and raised temperature) on the plants in the aquarium.

At this point, I thought well I've probably done more harm than good and didn't want a secondary bacterial infection, so I quarantined the fish (only one shedding slime), and treated with Maracyn (broad spectrum anti-biotic)

Total time on metro was probably around 7 days. He was being treated with Maracyn for 7 days also. My research indicated these med's would not interfere with one another.

I do have Prazi and quick cure on hand, so I haven't hit him with those yet.

It's probably correct that I somehow have loved this fish into worse health. I figured I'd ask some experts, so thanks for responding.

Now, if I put him in the regular tank, the other more dominant fish pick at him. This fish isn't very happy. So, I put him back into the 10 gallon quarantine with hopes he will start looking a little better before I submit him to the aggressiveness of the other fish.

Is it normal to shed slime? Turn Dark in color? Have holes developing on head? White chafy looking head?

None of the other fish were looking this way so I surmised an illness?

So, is it right to assume, this fish is fine, my water parameters were at fault, and put this sickly looking fish back into the regular aquarium with the other one who is going to attack him?

Won't 80% water changes drastically effect the resident helpful bacteria? And also stress the other fish? Nitrites, Nitrates, and Ammonia levels don't look out of hand. Also, PH has been stable.

[pcsb23]

Firstly welcome to Simply :)

Well, I'm not sure quite what to suggest really. The fact that the breeder routinely treats with metro on a 3 monthly basis would have me running for cover. Healthy fish do not need treatment. I suspect that if your fish have spiro (hith or hex) then the metro by now will not work on them as almost cetainly the bugs taht cause it will have developed immunity. This is what happens with "routine" treatments. Very, very bad practice imo.

If I have understood correctly you have 4 discus in a 40 gallon tank. The tank is a little too small because ideally you would want to have 5 or more discus. With a 40 you will have to step up the maintenance some, I suspect water quality was the initial cause of the problems along with it being bullied and the aggression not being spread enough (hence why 5 or more).

It is definitely NOT normal for fish to shed slime and have white patches.

The water column holds very little of the beneficial bacteria as most of that is colonised on the filter media and other hard surfaces. Removing large amounts of water removes large amounts of DOC's and water borne bacteria, fungus and parasites. Provided a suitable dechlor is used then large w/c can be performed saely, it is better to age the water (off gas the CO2 and stabilise the ph) in some cases the aging needs only be an hour or two, in others a day. Use anairstomeor powerhead in a barrel.

I would remove any carbon for now, I think you will need to treat, it's just difficult to know what to suggest. F&MG would be a decent start, it will get external parasites and the like. After that re-assess. Sorry I can't be more constructive.

[toddsmith7378]

Thanks.

I'll keep up the hard work. Hopefully, he'll come through. I know he's been through a lot.

I probably should have questioned the breeder with more scrutiny.

[Brian Mc]

I'm going to jump in the deep end here. Sounds to me like the fish is currently suffering from bacteria infection. If the other fish aren't affected I would def keep it QTd and step up the WCs, I like 90% myself, won't hurt a thing if your water is good. Increase aeration and if he continues shedding and laying at the top I would hit him with a PP bath which I find is the purple magic for fish with 'got everything' disease. ;)

Edit: You de-ionize your water but do you re-constitute it? I find that fish constanly kept in too-soft (breeding) conditions are more prone to HTH as are also fish that have carbon used in the tank. Also you don't want carbon with plants. Oh yeah metro is MUCH more effective when administered in food. HTH.

[toddsmith7378]

I'm going to jump in the deep end here. Sounds to me like the fish is currently suffering from bacteria infection. If the other fish aren't affected I would def keep it QTd and step up the WCs, I like 90% myself, won't hurt a thing if your water is good. Increase aeration and if he continues shedding and laying at the top I would hit him with a PP bath which I find is the purple magic for fish with 'got everything' disease. ;)

Edit: You de-ionize your water but do you re-constitute it? I find that fish constanly kept in too-soft (breeding) conditions are more prone to HTH as are also fish that have carbon used in the tank. Also you don't want carbon with plants. Oh yeah metro is MUCH more effective when administered in food. HTH.

I think I do reconstitute (using Kent R/O right, discus essential). I think one is for adjusting hardness, and the other for re-mineralization. I started with the quick-cure, so if that doesn't work (bottle recommends 3 days) I'll try the Prazi Pro bath.

Then if this guy is still holding out, perhaps, I'll just let nature run it's course and see if his immune system has recuperated enough to handle whatever this is.

Metro, Maracyn, quick cure, and prazi (that's about everything, right)

A LFS told me that the penguin filter cartridge shouldn't have sufficient carbon to negatively effect the plants or fish, but now I'm not so sure.

Through all the research I've done as a result of this illness, I have realized that maybe I should watch the carbon filtration, and I decided to soak the food in Kent Zoe, so hopefully the additional calcium and magnesium will he helpful in the long run as well.

(Don't they get HTH from a lack of these minerals), resulting from flagellate intestinal infestation?

Thanks for the help.

[Brian Mc]

I should have been more clear, by PP I meant potassium permangenate -KMN04. Sorry to throw another med in there but I found that this is a very effective 'shotgun' style treatment which covers all the external bases. I use in instead of FMG or Maryacyn and found it more effective. I suggested using it if the fish doesn't seem to get better from the external symptoms as it will knock back parasites, fungus, and bad bacteria. Since you already started with quick cure I would run the course but keep this med in mind for the future, I dropped most of my med cabinet for this stuff.

Sorry I missed that you do reconstitute your water, should be fine there, little discus grow bigger in harder water 300-400 ppm but planted tanks need it a bit softer if I recall. Good luck, let us know how it goes. When I left the hobby a few years ago people were still arguing over what causes HLLE but too-soft water ,carbon and flagellates were the usual suspects.

[pcsb23]

I think if you take everyones advice you will kill your fish. It is a myth that discus grow bigger in hard water than soft. Discus get their minerals from food, not water.

[Brian Mc]

I think if you take everyones advice you will kill your fish. It is a myth that discus grow bigger in hard water than soft. Discus get their minerals from food, not water.
I agree, that's why I suggested staying with the current course. I indicated that I have been out of the hobby for awhile, any info you can direct me to on the hard water myth would be appreciated, thanks.

[MostlyDiscus]

Hey Brian, just wondering how long you dose with PP and water temp. Thx Ed

[Brian Mc]

So how's the fish anyway Todd?


Discus get their minerals from food, not water.
I will have to go with what I know on this on I guess, I believe it was Wattley himself that first noted accidentally that fry grew faster in his RO waste water bucket. Not saying that you can't grow a nice discus in soft, God does it all the time. Discus do absorb minerals from water though, that is a fact and this action occurs through the gills.


Hey Brian, just wondering how long you dose with PP and water temp. Thx Ed
Hi Ed, I strictly follow Peter Selph's excellent article here (http://aquaweb.pair.com/forums/archives/loach3/index.cgi?read=26787), looks like thanks also to Larry Grenier, teddyj (haven't heard those names in awhile) and also Ken H. I have the original copy on an old hard drive as well as maybe the story Peter told on why it's the perfect shotgun as he used it to save a wild female damaged in shipping with multiple probs that turned out to be his best mom.

Not for the faint of heart, the line between helping and hurting is fine, here (http://www.skepticalaquarist.com/docs/health/potper.shtml) is a good article on maybe why not to use it. Favorite quote: "By decimating planktonic protists it will also clear hazy cloudiness in the water, rather the way gunfire will clear the schoolyard."

I had very few problems that required meds once I switched to a constant drip system and expect the same for my new setup but you never expect trouble, so PP also gets another check in my book for being something once deactivated I don't mind dumping into my septic system which is located over my groundwater stores.