Sick discus!! Help!

[wilddiscuss]

Hi all,

I have had problems with these discus sense I have bought them. They had a parasite from what I beleive. I used PP and they were doing great! I did the treatment 3 times. I have no idea whats wrong now. I did kill the bio filter with the PP treatment so I have been doing daily 50% water changes. I missed 1 day, and the big guy has been hiding and not eating. I did the 50% water change asap. He seemed to look better and was out swimming around. But this morning I woke up to see what is in the video below. I am about to do another 50% water change in hopes it will help. Please help me :( I am not sure what's wrong.

http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j206/turntablez1234/th_202878500357.jpg (http://s81.photobucket.com/albums/j206/turntablez1234/?action=view&current=202878500357.flv)


I hope he will be ok :(

Todd

[wilddiscuss]

ok I just noticed something else. The big guy has a big bulge right behind his fins on each side. It is also black over the bulge on one side of the bulge? Here is an over head shot looking down on him. you can see the dark bulged spot.


http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j206/turntablez1234/bloated.jpg

Help :(!!!!

Here is another one you can see the dark spot better.

http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j206/turntablez1234/bloated2.jpg

[majik]

Hi there i dont have any wisdom to add but im sorry your having problems,have you tried dosing with epsom salt at 1 or 2 Tablespoons per 10g?

[wilddiscuss]

Hi there i dont have any wisdom to add but im sorry your having problems,have you tried dosing with epsom salt at 1 or 2 Tablespoons per 10g?


I just did with a 50% water change. I hope it works :(

[majik]

ok sounds good fingers crossed for the big guy.

[wilddiscuss]

Not sure if he's gonna make it. He's just floating around and turned totally dark :( He's fighting though. Any other suggestions anyone?

[wilddiscuss]

He died :cry: I guess I was too late. Well there is 3 out of the 5 discus I bought. Man. This is just depressing. I want discus so bad. I have the worst luck. First the tank. Then who I bought them from. I have 2 small guys left.... but I just flushed 300 dollars down the toilet. It's like after the water change and adding epsom salt...boom. He just stopped breathing. If these other guys don't make it :( I dunno this is horrible. Did I do something wrong? Do they bloat that quickly?

Todd

[kaceyo]

Do you have ammonia and nitrite test kits? If so, what are they showing?Are you dechlorinating the tap water? With what? Looks like it could be ammonia burns on the fins. Have you got pics of the remaining fish?

Kacey

[brewmaster15]

Todd,
The fins look burned to me as well... do the remaining ones have opaque fins? Check your water parameters..

A black area is often seen when theres trauma... Its thought to be Nerve damage...but it could have been from a rupture as well.. Unfortunately theres no way to know.

I realize that this isn't exactly what you envisioned with your discus dream...but sometimes things like this happens...many start out with a sour experience like this.....

Given what you have gone through... If you could set yourself up a small Tank...take the two remaining discus and put them in it, I'd suggest it... then break Down this existing tank...start over... Pick one sponsor here to work with and let them guide you..... I know its frustrating but that tank has had way too many problems... you're going to get the urge to add fish...and I think doing so to that tank will only cause you more grief.

Sorry,
al

[wilddiscuss]

Todd,
The fins look burned to me as well... do the remaining ones have opaque fins? Check your water parameters..

A black area is often seen when theres trauma... Its thought to be Nerve damage...but it could have been from a rupture as well.. Unfortunately theres no way to know.

I realize that this isn't exactly what you envisioned with your discus dream...but sometimes things like this happens...many start out with a sour experience like this.....

Given what you have gone through... If you could set yourself up a small Tank...take the two remaining discus and put them in it, I'd suggest it... then break Down this existing tank...start over... Pick one sponsor here to work with and let them guide you..... I know its frustrating but that tank has had way too many problems... you're going to get the urge to add fish...and I think doing so to that tank will only cause you more grief.

Sorry,
al

Al,

I pick up a 20 gallon complete set tomorrow. I do have PP left. Can I just let it sit in that over night instead of bleaching it? The tank is used. Then I will add bio spira with a full water change. and keep up on my water perms. As for the the readings before that I did have a little ammonia reading of 0.3 but that was only for 1 day. I did a 50% water change and then another one today. The water is always aged about 24 hours. No nitrites or nitrates. I do assume that may have something to do with the fiins.... but the little guys one looks like it has burns and the other guy that's the bully his fins actually look fine. As for the pics above on the discus I just lost....his fims did not look anything like that yesturday. Only today when I noticed the issue. One of them seems a little dark and stressed but I think that is mainly because the other guy bullys him a bit. I will post some pics of the remaining 2 in a day or so.

As for starting over. Should I just dose it with PP and replace the prefilters on my big tank? I have a trickle filter. Should I pull out the bio balls? Or should I just leave them and use PP to kill whatever was in there? I want to try avoiding the bleach because the girlfriend got a bit upset when I used it last time a couple drops landed on the carpet. Here we go again starting over :(
If these last 2 guys do ok...when should I re add them with new discus? Please let me know. If I do use bleach can I just add it to the water...let the tank run over night then do a few water changes and add water conditioner and then start the cycle? Thanks everyone for listening.

Todd

[wilddiscuss]

Do you have ammonia and nitrite test kits? If so, what are they showing?Are you dechlorinating the tap water? With what? Looks like it could be ammonia burns on the fins. Have you got pics of the remaining fish?

Kacey

I am using aqua plus for my water conditioner with each water change. more info is on the reply above.

Todd

[wilddiscuss]

Does anyone know that is a good idea to start over my tank? Or do I have to tear it all apart? Thanks :)

Todd

[wilddiscuss]

Anyone out there know??? Just awaiting some of your feedback so I can get started. Thanks :)

Todd

[brewmaster15]

Todd,
I prefer bleach over PP......pitch any sponge filters..bioballs and all hard surfaces in contact with the tank water should get bleach...overnight is fine...then several refills and add a declor......... I would not add these two fish back again...The risk is not worth it, IMO.

If they do okay in the 20 gal...you'll have to make the call on what to do with them... just keep in mind a fish can look fine and still be a carrier....

The idea is a clean start Todd...unfortunately that does mean breaking it down..

Other here may have a different take on whether its necessary....I can only tell you what I would do given what youve gone thru and where the fish came from.:confused:

Really sorry,
al

[pcsb23]

Todd, how did I miss this? Sorry that you have gone through this, it's been a run for you recently.

I do pretty similar to Al. I have on past occaisions been called ruthless. I would cull the remaining two.

Bleach the tank, heaters etc. Ditch any hoses and nets and sponges. I'd ditch the bio media, but if it's expensive stuff then wash it hard and nuke it in the microwave! but be careful, not everything can be microwaved!

Then start afresh and cycle the tank and pick some good fish from a sponsor.

Where in the states are you??

[wilddiscuss]

Todd,
I prefer bleach over PP......pitch any sponge filters..bioballs and all hard surfaces in contact with the tank water should get bleach...overnight is fine...then several refills and add a declor......... I would not add these two fish back again...The risk is not worth it, IMO.

If they do okay in the 20 gal...you'll have to make the call on what to do with them... just keep in mind a fish can look fine and still be a carrier....

The idea is a clean start Todd...unfortunately that does mean breaking it down..

Other here may have a different take on whether its necessary....I can only tell you what I would do given what youve gone thru and where the fish came from.:confused:

Really sorry,
al

:( ok well I will have to start over I guess. I'll start breaking it down. I'll have to do it over the weekend. Deff not looking forward to it. But thanks al...I appreciate it.

Todd


Todd, how did I miss this? Sorry that you have gone through this, it's been a run for you recently.

I do pretty similar to Al. I have on past occaisions been called ruthless. I would cull the remaining two.

Bleach the tank, heaters etc. Ditch any hoses and nets and sponges. I'd ditch the bio media, but if it's expensive stuff then wash it hard and nuke it in the microwave! but be careful, not everything can be microwaved!

Then start afresh and cycle the tank and pick some good fish from a sponsor.

Where in the states are you??

I live just outside of Detroit Michigan. I can get some domestics from Cari here....but I want to get some wilds as well. Thanks for your help as well.

Todd

[brewmaster15]

Todd,
Start with the domestics...practice with them... the season is largely over for wilds, but will be here again soon... Since you are so close to cary...definetly work with him...see if you can score some homegrowns from him.. Stay with one source and get them all at once since you are limited in tanks..

I think this time around you'll be okay...Just remember to Work with him....you won't easily find a better mentor.:)

-al

[wilddiscuss]

Ok I will start over with Cari then. I do have a question though. When I scrub out the tank and let it run with bleach. How much bleach should I add per 10 gallons? Also I have hard lined my trickle filter with PVC threaded pipes. I would rather not replace those. That was a heck of a job. Is it ok to run it and the bleach kill anything that might be harmful? I do plan on replacing all the bio balls and pre filters and airline hoses. As for my sponge filters I will toss those as well and bleach the sponge filter houseings over night? Should I scrub everything too? Or just let everything soak?

Thanks all,

Todd

[brewmaster15]

I usually use 1 cup bleach per 55 gals...run over night... Scrub what you can reach ...rinse well..,,,the rest will come off within a few days of running the filter with clean water......

-al

[pcsb23]

Todd, Cary has a geat rep and is a nice person too. He also has some pretty decent fish too. Good luck.

[wilddiscuss]

Well here are the other 2 guys that are left. They seem to be doing fine. I haven't moved them to the 20 gallon yet. Let me know what you think.

http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j206/turntablez1234/th_203315672197.jpg (http://s81.photobucket.com/albums/j206/turntablez1234/?action=view&current=203315672197.flv)

Thanks :) Todd

[brewmaster15]

Todd,
They can look okay as these do and still have issues....I would move them to the 20....start over on your display tank...In the long run...you'll be happiest with a a good group of healthy stock full of potential to enjoy...again..thats just my opinion and what I would do here...

I never mix fish of questionable health with healthy fish...its not worth the risk.

hth,
al

[subcooler]

Sorry to hear about your loss!
I'm only replying , because I been through a similiar situation(New to discus-11/07).
I started out with a pair from LFS-They seemed to be doing fine there(gravel tank,minor weekly W/C's etc...).I knew very little about what I was getting into:(
There was alot of aggresion between only 2 fish(1 was much larger)
I ended up getting (4) fish from an online source in state(NJ), to avoid the bullying of the big discus.Made another major mistake-no QT of new fish!
To make a long story short-I had to cull the little guy.
It's been a battle to keep the remaining (5) fish healthy.
I've received lot's of help here-they get the credit for the turn around on the remaining fish from original tank.(Thanks again Al,Paul etc...):angel:
The best advice I got was pick a sponsor, get a tankful of new fish & apply what you've learned here!
I followed that advice & they are doing great! Most sponsors on here spend alot of time replying to questions -regardless of who the fish were bought from!
I also questioned putting the fish together in a large tank-At this time I doubt I ever will mix them.Seems to risky to endanger the health of the new guys.
The wife will just have to live with a pair of 55g. tanks in here living room(I think she's an :angel: too!)
Best of luck with your discus
Rob

[wilddiscuss]

Yeah, you all are right. I will be doing the clean up of the tank after the weekend. What a shame though. :( Thanks everyone.

Todd

[wilddiscuss]

Well today I went to Cary's (Great Lakes Discus) new shop. It's pretty neat I would have to say! It was actually good to see Cary again. I haven't talked to him in person in a while. We talked over again the issues I was having. About my PH being around 8.5 He told me to get a RO system.... he said he wouldn't recomend letting them stay at that high of a PH because it would be more issues that it would be worth. So I bought an RO/DI system from him. A 35 gpd. I also talked about the new discus I will be picking up from him as well. He is really going to take care of me. That makes me soooo happy. I can't wait to get things going again.

He also said that my tank would cycle faster if I did it with the tap water at the PH of 8.5 as it is and then do a 100% change just before I get the fish with the RO/DI water and I'm good to go.

About my tank and cleaning. He said just to bleach the bio balls over night. New pre filters and sponge filter sponge. He recomended using 33% peroxide to treat the rest of the tank??? Has anyone done that before? I didn't get a chance to ask on how to do it.... but if you have I would like to get some opinions on that before I treat the whole tank over night and do a bunch of water changes....then to start the fishless cycle.

Thanks for your time!

Todd

[kaceyo]

I'd guess it's just a matter of how much he recommends diluting it, then spraying it on. I just happen to have some 35% HP and a couple of tanks I want to sterilize and that would be easier than what I had in mind.

Kacey

[wilddiscuss]

Well I was hoping to just add it to the tank well it's running. Pull the bio balls out soak those in bleach and water over night....then rinse the next day. Run the tank over night do a few water changes, replace all my air lines and sponge prefilers ect... and start my new cycle. I was just curious if anyone else has done it???

[kaceyo]

Your best bet would probably be to dump all the bioballs along with the rest of your equipment in the tank while it's running as you already plan. Putting HP in the tank instead of bleach would work, I just don't know the correct amount. Do a search on HP and you will likely find info on how to use it to sterilize equipment. That's what I'm gonna do tomorrow.

Kacey

[namasgt]

hello
i used peroxid before because my fish started dying. i just left everything in the tank with out the fish with peroxid in it for 48 hours and then i rinced everything with water. i havent used bleach before but peroxid seems to do a good job and it wont leave anything behind when you clean because i think if you use bleach have to make sure you clean it good so no bleach is left.thats why i think cary told you to treath with peroxid its just safer. this methode was recomended in a book i once had and the author prefered it more compared to other methods of cleaning.
and dont get upset for loosing your fish thats how it sometimes go in the beggining until you get it right, you can do this. for example i didnt have any experience in discus, went payed a lot of money to a LFS and after a few monts relized the fish are not growing at all. thay all stayed at 2 to2.5 inches, even with dayly water change and variety of feeding, i did a search and relized the discus i have are all stunted befor that i had never heared about fish getting stunted or how a discus eye should look like, i also had no idea that theyr suposed to grow fast in correct condition, i spended around 300$ for those fish. at list the employee did told me that he has the fish for around 5 months and they where only 2 inches long but i did not know 2 inch for 5 to 6 months is is too small.