Frequent water change question

[mandie15872001]

I've read several places that you should do a 30% water change DAILY? That seems like over kill to me from what I know about the beneficial bacteria. Won't the frequent water changes prevent the beneficial bacteria from building up that are going to eliminate the ammonia that will kill the fish? Thanks for any help!

[dishpanhands]

The bacteria lives on the filter not the water..If its living in the water it will make your water cloudy..If you change the water then the only place for the bacteria is the filter or the glass.if you take care of the filter it will stay there.

[Xavier]

well put dishpanhands

[Hans Kloss]

Won't the frequent water changes prevent the beneficial bacteria from building up that are going to eliminate the ammonia that will kill the fish?

Excessive water changes are often necessary to remove pathogenic bacteria, protozoans and parasites (if fish are infected). It is specially important when you use water of basic pH.
Of course it cannot harm your nitrifying bacteria because water is not their settlement.
Hans

[Don Trinko]

You will find a variety of opinions about the frequency and amount of water changes. Opinions vary from 50 to 100% every day to 20% per month. It depends a lot on the bioload, feeding , age off fish, bare bottor or planted etc. Search and you will find many threaads on this.
I change 40% twice a week for a gravel bottom with fake plants. To much is better than to little as long as your storage water is close to tank water in temperature and other parameters. (ph especialy)
I,m not suggesting that you do as I do; I'm suggesting that you do a lot of reading and then decide. Someone else may have the same amount of fish but feed more; They would need more/larger WC. If you only had 5 discus in a 500g tank maybee 20% a month would be enough.
One thing for sure: Get a bigger water storage tank than you think you need.
Don T.

[mandie15872001]

I am setting up a tank for the first time and I just want to make sure that I am going about it the right way. I put rinsed gravel down and a few plants and have no fish yet. I have been adding stress zyme to the water daily as well as feeding the tank daily to help speed up the nitrogen cycle. I've been doing this for about a week now and tested the water today and saw that there is no ammonia, nitrite, or nitrate. Shouldn't I see some spike in at least the ammonia by now? I just want to make sure my clycle has started before I add my fish. Thanks.

[RockHound]

No need for WC's, with no fish in the tank yet.

What you want, is the biofilter to fully cycle.
(feeding the water ammonia to 5ppm concentration, helps)

There is a symbiotic population dynamic where the AOB (ammonia oxidizing bacteria) population explodes because of the large amounts of ammonia in the water.

AOB should quickly use this up and produce a nitrite spike.
Since the ammonia level is low, the AOB population starts to dwindle.

At the same time, the nitrite spike fuels an explosion of NOB (nitrite oxidizing bacteria).
When the nitrite is used up, the NOB population start to dwindle.

The pendulum swings back and forth until the AOB population keeps up with ammonia input, and the NOB population keeps up with nitrite production.

When these two sets of bacteria are in equilibrium, the ammonia and nitrite concentrations are maintained at or near zero and your biofilter is said to be cycled.

Have you seen your water turn a bit cloudy yet?
If so, that is the AOB population explosion.
Once the cloudy water starts to clear.
That is the NOB population taking hold.

It takes time to reach the required equilibrium.

[mandie15872001]

My water changed cloudy about two days ago so I started to add a water clarifier but it didn't seem to help to much, is it supossed to? Once the water clears up, is it safe to add fish?

[subcooler]

IMO, I would buy a water testing kit(test for Ph, Ammo,Nitrite & Nitrates).All of these parameters are very important.
The end product of nitrogen cycle is Nitrates(which are removed through water changes)
Until you see a nitrate reading -tank is not cycled.
Others here are much more familiar with fishless cycling than I am-I just wanted to add that importance of buying a good test kit before adding discus to your tank!
Good luck with your fish!
Rob

[ShinShin]

Large water changes also remove excess organic compounds caused by metabolic waste from all the living organisms in the tank including the bacteria present. These organic waste compounds are said to have an overall effect on discus health and growth.

Mat

ps - Mandie, throw away the water clarifier. It serves no purpose. It binds tiny particlate matter in the tank into larger particles that gravity can pull to the bottom of the tank. At least, that's its purpose. It will never clear up cloudy water caused of a bacterial bloom. Save your money

[MostlyDiscus]

Hi Mandie,

Do you plan to put other fish in your setup? If so you may want to start with them to break in the tank. What do you plan on feeding your discus? Heavy protein foods can put more burden on a new system. I would find out if you can what your new discus are feeding on to make it a smoother transistion. Good Luck and Good Discus

[Lex2000]

here is my 2 cents from WC and near disaster of killing 2 discus in

I was doing 50% water change daily for a month. My tap water is 6.7-7ph. Routinely i would add prime and 5 minutes of aeration before dumping into the 20G tank.

I daily check PH w/Oakton ph meter. one day i came back from work saw the water to be crystal clear and the pair of discus in the corner huddle together.

checked the PH, it was at 4.
****,did a hasty 75% water change and checked KH. KH was at bare. This is what many of the guys in this forum called "PH Crash". Coincidently i had to cycle my tank with the discus in it, due to the PH crash.

The point i'm trying to get across is, if you do large wc except KH, PH and GH parameter issues that may arise. constantly check the water parameters and add Baking soda to buffers KH.

do through research before adding any fish.

Good luck.

[mandie15872001]

Thanks for all of your help. I do have a test kit and even though the water is cloudy there is zero ppm for ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate. I have a biowheel. I have been feeding the tank flake food on a regular basis as well as stress zyme. Hopefully things will start happening soon :o

[salth20]

Mandie,
Adding food to a tank with no life in it is not going to jump start the cycle the way you think it will. Rockhound is correct, you need ammonia, either in the form of hardy, discus compatible fish excreating waste, or clear ammonia. There is no need to change water in a tank with no fish. You are correct that this will slow the progress of the tank. Also, there is no need to add a clarifier. A fishless cycle is an excellent idea, but you need to develop a large population of bacteria. The ammonia will do this. Ammonia consuming bacteria will develop. Nitrite will begin to rise. You need to keep dosing ammonia, as that is the food for the Nitrosomonas. You will see that you can dose the tank with ammonia, and check 8-12 hours later, and it will be gone. As nitrite rises, another strain of bacteria develop that will consume the nitrite, and convert it to nitrate. When you see 0ppm of nitrite after a peak, and are seeing a level of nitrate, you are cycled. This process may take as long as 6-8 weeks. I suggest either Seachem Stabilty or Bio Spira for a bacteria source. After the tank is cycled, do a large WC, and add your fish. If you will google "fishless cycle" you'll find many articles reinforcing rockhound's and my take on it.
Good luck!

[mandie15872001]

I thought that decaying food would add ammonia. If not, how should I add ammonia, is there a product that I can buy?

[YSS]

Adding a piece of shrimp is a popular way of staring the fishless cycling process in the reef world. I don't see any reason why adding fish food (or shrimp) wouldn't work in the FW world.

[salth20]

Adding food simply isn't going to jump start the tank very efficiently, especially flake food. The comment about adding a shrimp to a marine tank is an old method, still workable, but you are dealing with decaying, rotting meat, not processed flakes. First, bacteria will have to work on the food source, beginning the decaying process. After that starts you will have some waste matter. Even with a fully functioning tank, I'll find bloodworm's on my prefilter in the overflow box.. very little if any decaying going on there in a weeks time. Easier to bypass the whole situation and dose to 4-5ppm of clear ammonia, just like found in any grocery store. Mandie, this is tried and proven, and is very simple. A gallon of ammonia might be a buck and change. Your food source will likely be much more than that. Additionally, you will develop a good amount of bacteria, and your filter will be ready. You could take your biowheel to another fish keepers tank and have them put it in their filter. After a week or so, you will be seeded, and this can start you on your way also. There are some very hardy fish you could start with.. a friend of mine is cycling with Pristella Tetras, nice fish, fairly docile, stout. They have been fine through the ammonia phase and into the nitrite, and are well. Keep checking your water, you will get there. Patience is one thing this hobby will teach you, lots of patience.
Good luck!

[tdr1919]

seachems Stability works great, i use it for starting a new tank and after I have knocked out my bio filter ater medicating with "Hyde"
Stability will get your tank in balance, but ammonia is a heck of alot cheaper!

- Tom

[RockHound]

Adding ammonia is far more efficient than adding fish food.
Adding fish food, will increase TDS, DOC & BOD

Total Dissolved Solids (TDS) and Dissolved Organic Carbon (DOC) is a measure of the amount of ions dissolved in the water.
DOC is a measure of the dissolved organic carbon in the water.
High levels of DOC inhibit nitrification and increase the biochemical oxygen demand (BOD).
Which in turn reduces the amount of oxygen in the water that is available to the both fish, and nitrifying bacteria in a biofilter.

When I start a new tank & biofilter up.

I feed the system ammonia until I get a 5ppm reading.
To jump start the growth of an AOB population.
AOB convert ammonia to nitrite.

Once there is nitrite in the water.
That feeds a NOB population.
Which convert nitrite to nitrate.

NOB are far slower growing than AOB.
So, it takes some time for that population to get large enough.
To do the job quickly.

Once, I have test readings showing nitrate.
I know both bacteria populations are present & working.

Feeding ammonia daily, builds both beneficial bacteria groups up,
To the point, that symbiotic population is large enough to handle the fish load you intend to place in the tank.

To test how large the bacteria population can be judged by how fast the ammonia & nitrite get converted to nitrate.

Once, testing shows ammonia/nitrite disappear quickly.
And, nitrate is showing up in larger concentrations.
You know you have a decent population of AOB/NOB working.
So, the biofilter is fairly functional.

But, still, I cheat a bit.
(please don't frown, as it is humane)
And, test the cycled system, with an inexpensive live bioload.

I borrow 8 or 10 comet goldfish from my grandchildren’s tank.
And, place them in the new system for a couple weeks.
And, feed them a fairly heavy consistant diet.

Which insures everything in the totally symbiotic system is working.
Without risking hundreds of dollars worth of expensive fish.

Once, I am positive all is well.
I return the fat happy comets to their old home.
And KNOW, everything fine in the new system.

[kaceyo]

Hi Rockhound,
I just want to point a couple of thing in your post. First is that DOC's are Desolved Organic Compounds rather tha DOCarbon. DOC is also used for Disolved Oxygen Content sometimes, so don't let that confuse you.
Also, one of the main reasons for doing a fishless cycle is to be able to build up a significant colony of bacteria without introducing any pathogens from another tank or fish. Adding feeder goldfish, or any other fish for that matter, to test the filter is completely unnescessary and is a big risk besides. Once the filter is established it will work. The proof is in the fact that you can add ammonia one day and it's all gone, along with any nitrite, the next. No other test is needed.
HTH,

Kacey

[phidelt85]

I agree. Continue doing the fishless cycle to prevent introducing any nasties from other fish you may not want in your final tank. I picked up my ammonia at Ace hardware. Use the Ace brand or make sure whatever ammonia you get has no surfactants in the water. I recommend Ace because it was the only place I could find just regular 10% ammonia with no additives.

[mandie15872001]

Thanks so much for all of your help. I didn't realize before that the ammonia that everyone was talking about was stuff I had in my cupboard already. I thought it was going to be some fancy chemical bought at a specialty store. My tank is starting to cycle, and I am just going to be paitient, and do some reading in the meantime. Thanks again for all of your help!

[ShinShin]

Decaying food will add a host of other bacteria to your water, none of which will do anything for the nitrogen cyle. This is not what you want to do. Use plain ammonia. Read the fishless cycle thread.