Need a little feed back.

[kaceyo]

I have six fish in a 50 gal that have been slowly losing their appitite. It started with one that would isolate and face the back but would come out and eat, looking fine, at each feeding. After a week or two of extra wc's (twice daily 50%) the others started huddling, but only occasionally and generaly looked good with bright colors, fins erect etc. Then, one by one, their appitites started to decrease. At this point I bumped the temp up to 90F and started doing a metro treatment in water. Now I'm on the 5th day and while I thought they were picking up a bit, it was only temporary and now they are huddled much of the time, and while they do come out to eat, they don't eat much. They never really turned dark or showed any external symptoms. No bulging stomach or stringy feces. Just not much to base a treatment on.
So now I'd appreciate any advice others who may have seen similar cases might have on which way to go from here. I'm considering either lavamisol or a good antibiotic aimed at internal infection. If you concure on either or have another reccomendation please let me know.
Thanks,

Kacey

[fishmama]

Have you checked your water parameters (pH, ammonia, nitrite, temp) just to make sure biofilter and heater haven't had a problem?

[aquagal]

Kacey--

I have five juvenilles (in a QT tank now for about a month) with almost the exact same symptoms. Loss of appetite, especially from one who used to be my most piggy eater. In addition to your symptoms, mine are also flashing every now and then and clamping a gill.

My water is good, 50% WC daily with aged/aerated/heated water.

I'm at a loss also. At Al's suggestion, I will be treating w/ QuickCure in a couple days. I'm trying to get them eating better first.

Sherry

[Don Trinko]

Check the poo. If it is white that would indicate intrernal parasites or just stomach lining. ( metro kills many internal parasites but not all)
The flashing (excessive) would indicate external parasites. Quick cure should kill them. Prazi also works and kills some internal worms also. If you can get some CBW; If they won't eat those they are probably sick . Don T.

[brewmaster15]

Hi Kacey,
Are these fish you have bred or fish you recently got? How old are they?

What is your Metro treatment? and have you treated these fish with metro before?

-al

[kaceyo]

Hi Al,
These are fish I bred that are about 10 months now. I started the metro at 400mg/10gals twice a day for two days and then switched to once a day in the water and twice a day in food. I think this is their first time on metro but I could be wrong.
Even now they are huddled and facing the back of the tank but color is great.

Fishmama,
I have checked all Params and all are good.
Thanks,

Kacey

[brewmaster15]

Hi Kacey,

Now I'm on the 5th day and while I thought they were picking up a bit, it was only temporary and now they are huddled much of the time, and while they do come out to eat, they don't eat much. They never really turned dark or showed any external symptoms. Theres only a small number of things thats Metro works on... protozoans is one.... and the other is a small group of bacteria..mostly anaerobic ones.. so if you saw any effect with the metro,. you may be dealing with one of these..

Its possible its flagellates that are resistant to metro so the dose you are using isn't strong enough but thats not likely if you haven't experienced this before, IMO....and even less likely since you have bred and raised these.... but still you may want to try raising the metro dose.

The other choice is bacterial...and the metro really isn't the med of choice for bacterial...its usually used pharmacologically in conjunction with another antibiotic where it has a synergistic effect...so maybe...again the dose used wasn't strong enough... If you were to try and treat this as a bacterial infection...I would try any of these.. Kanamycin, maracyn 2 (minocycline), or oxytetracycline....all three are taken up well from water....

I don't think levasole is the right med...most of the times worm infections show symptoms in a fish or two at once...not a whole tank simultaneously.

Just my thoughts here Kacey...not sure what else to offer.

hth.
al

[kaceyo]

Al,
I really didn't know if I should deal with it as an infection requiring anti biotics but your assesment sounds logical to me. One more question. If I'd had a microscope would it be likely the bacteria could have been seen with it? Or would it be more to rule out parasites as the offending culprit in this case, or when dealing with bacteria in general?
Thanks,

Kacey

[dizkuz]

Hi Al,
These are fish I bred that are about 10 months now. I started the metro at 400mg/10gals twice a day for two days and then switched to once a day in the water and twice a day in food. I think this is their first time on metro but I could be wrong.
Even now they are huddled and facing the back of the tank but color is great.

Fishmama,
I have checked all Params and all are good.
Thanks,

Kacey

Hi there Kacey...

I feel for your prob and its always hard to get exact reason to prob if you can not get you fish checked out by a VET,,,
But i think the metro is a little bit low. not in dose but in how many time u dose it...

Metro in water will work faster and better if u dose it 3 x day because metro just last in water for 8 hour... dont forget to do water change at least 40% when u re-dose

I guess all one eats because u started give them metro in food...
But u need to give them metro food for 3 x day no other food under this time...

Just how i see about the use of metro :angel:
Brgds Danne

[brewmaster15]

Kacey,
A microscope is great tool... buts its not useful in practical application for bacterial issues in fish illness by hobbyists, IMO... bacterias need to be identified by staining and cultures, and sometimes thru antibody tests.

If it were a parasite....often times...yes you should see it....but even there its easier for external parasites... internal ones...not so much........not all parasites are shed in feces....and sometimes you would need to sacrifice the fish and do a detailed exam.

Hth,
al

[poconogal]

Kacey, I just lost one that had the exact same symptoms as you describe. Formerly ate like a pig, then gradually lost her appetite then stopped eating, facing the tank back, etc. She had no white or stringy poo, her poo was normal and her color was good, no bloating, no gilling, no flashing. I treated with Maracyn 2 but it did no good. I'm thinking prolly internal infection that needed Maracyn, maybe. Normally I would've treated with both, concurrently, but I had no Maracyn and the stores by me were out.

[kaceyo]

Danne,
Thanks for your advice. I've always questioned the validity of redosing metro so frequently as, to my knowledge, the 8hr breakdown time was based on the time it takes to breakdown in the human body and not on how long it takes in a body of water. A living body has a multitude of systems designed to activly break down foriegn matter so I'm not sold on the idea that aquarium water breaks metro down just as quickly.
For now I'm switching tactics and going with kanamycin.

Connie,
I'm sorry to hear about your fish and hopefully Mine won't end up the same way. I know it's frustrating when fish get sick and don't respond to the treatment. I have nightmares about things like that happening. And it's supposed to be a RELAXING hobby, LOL!!!

Kacey

[phidelt85]

Well, Kacey, your symptoms sound similar to what I have recently gone through with my Challenge fish with the exception that a minority of them actually went extremely dark. Aside from that, the huddling and loss of appetite is dead on. Per Al's instruction, I went with Kanamycin as well and have seen a noticeable difference. I hope yours as well turn around. Good luck, bud.

[kaceyo]

Thanks Jose. Just a few days ago one was starting to lay eggs occasionally and they were all in a tizzy fighting and defending and courting etc. I think that stressed them to the point they got sick. I also put a couple of BN pleco's in their tank but I've never had any probs with the plec's, which I bred myself.

Kacey