Yellow Poop

[aquagal]

I have fish I've had in QT for 5 weeks that has not been eating for about 2 weeks and is now passing slimy, yellow poop. Sorry, the pics aren't great. I have treated the group w/ PraziPro and just recently Formalin (as the PraziPro seemed to have no affect). Hate to through more meds in the tank.

Any clues...?

Thanks!

Sherry

http://i255.photobucket.com/albums/hh129/gern6529/CIMG1036.jpg

http://i255.photobucket.com/albums/hh129/gern6529/CIMG1034.jpg

[Kindredspirit]

Sherry ~ yellow poop can indicate a bacterial infection and a lot of times parasites are the cause.

Give them a rest from previous meds, lots of clean fresh water; sounds like salt and Furan 2, may be your next course of action, but please wait and see what others suggest.

Good Luck!

[aquagal]

Yeah, something's going on. I'm definately going to let them rest a bit...

Not sure if the PraziPro would have upset their system? I've read it's fairly mild?

[Harriett]

Prazi pro is usually well tolerated, but even if it upset their systems, it would not be responsible for a bacterial infection. Anytime you see yellow or green drainage or poop [assuming you have checked against what food you have fed them as a source i.e. heavy spirulina could give a green cast to poops] you can be reasonably certain it is a bacterial issue. [In humans too.] Anti parasitics do kill the 'critters', but during the infestation they can really chew up the gut and that is a set up for a bacterial infection both due to the breaching of the guts' protective mucosa and because the fish's imune system is stressed from being sick. It's very common to start with one issue and have a whole little parade of other sequalae pop up in the course of things. That sure is some yellow poops there...
Prazipro treats specifically for Flukes, Tapeworm, Flatworms, and Turbellarians. IF your culprit is something else [like HEX], the prazi won't do it. How did you determine what you think they have?
I've had some luck with Furan II for internal infections, but found it was more effective for externals. You need an atibiotic best suited for internal bacterial infections I think.
Good luck, hope your guys make it--it's so alarming and frustrating when they are off.
Best regards
Harriett

[aquagal]

Thanks for the note Harriet. I treated for flukes (initially w/ PraziPro) because the fish were flashing and clamping their gills. Some of the fish also have very flared gill covers. Within 24 hours of treating w/ PraziPro they all started dropping tapes (yuk!). The initial symptoms did not get better. About a week or so after the treatment, two of them stopped eating.

Externally, the fish look great and are not even really clamping their fins. Internally, something obviously is going on w/ two of the fish. The other three are eating just fine and have normal poop?

[ShinShin]

Yellow feces is also associated with nematodes. Levamisole will correct that problem. Do you have a microscope?

Mat

ps - prazi will not help out if that is the case, in fact, even if it is not nematodes, prazi won't help this problem, IMO.

[Harriett]

Yup! Tapeworms, an unforgettable experience, no? It makes sense that the poor guys who spit tapes are the ones not eating, if that is what you are saying--tapeworms are pretty hard on the gut--they literally chew into it. I have had discus come in with tapeworm 2 x since I have been fooling around with discus and both times they then had secondary bacterial infections that popped up after the worms cleared. You need to treat with an internal antibiotic [catch 22 here is that it's more effective in food but they aren't eating, right?]. Remember that you will need to retreat with the prazi in about a week, if I remember the timing correctly. Prazi kills the worms but doesn't kill the eggs--you have to next treat them in the part of the cycle where the the tapeworms have hatched but not matured and started laying more eggs in there. Yuck. I actually don't recall which med I used though I can look it up at home tonight if no one else posts with better information for you. I do remember that I treated for a good 8-10 days and also added salt at 2-3 tablespoons per ten gallons, which seemed to at least soothe them. I kept the temp at about 82 instead of 85 for my juvies to slow down the proliferation of bacteria blooming in there until I got them cleaned up. Lots of clean water, I replaced the salt when I changed the water. Fed lightly their favorite foods. I think they didn't eat for a good 5 days or so but then gradually came back fine. THe whole thing did slow down their growth patterns for s few months though. I am sure you are already doing this, but treat the whole tank not just the discus that manifested the worms--why risk an incomplete cure, huh?
Good luck again!
Harriett

[aquagal]

I was using Prazi to treat the flukes. I don't have Levamisole, but I do have Piperazine. Not sure if one is better than the other. I can get Levamisole online.

[aquagal]

Unfortunately, I don't have a microscope, so I can't confirm whether the fish have a bacterial issue or nematodes?

They definately DID have tapes, which I saw them expel. So, I'm not sure how to treat?

Anybody in the Northern Virginia area have a microscope out there that I could use?

[kaceyo]

Hi Sherry,
Are the fish bloated at all? some times there are pieces of dead worm left behind that can't be passed out by the fish. If not expelled they can cause bloat and infection. Try adding Epsom Salt at 2tbs/10gal to help the fish pass anything that may be still inside. Kanamycin is a good antibiotic for internal infections if needed.

Kacey

[aquagal]

They are not bloated.

I do have some Kanamycin?

[MostlyDiscus]

HI,

Sounds like Harriett has the answer to me and kaceyo had the medication. When flukes are rid of they leave hot spots for infection. I would think the same for internals like TapeWorms. I Had some imported reds many years ago that had quite a few. As Harriett puts it "yuck". Epsom salts would help too just in case they broke apart. GLGD make sure to used antibactierals for the duration of treatment. Kind of like people.. ;)

[ShinShin]

You couldn't determine if you had a bacterial infection by using a microscope since the gut has normal flora present at all times and fecal matter is about 30% bacteria anyway. You'd have to a culture to determine if a pathogenic bacteria is there.

Cestodes (tapeworms) will cause a fish to stop eating on if the infestation is so great that it blocks the intestinal pathway to the anal opening or when the discus becomes so weak from a large infestation that it can no longer eat from malnutrition. Normally, tapeworms only are present in otherwise healthy discus. They need a healthy fish to supply them with nourishment. Tapewprm attach themselves to the intestinal wall and get their nutrition DIRECTLY from the discus. They need a healthy host to accomplish this. They will actually leave a sickly host when their own (the tapeworm) nurishment needs are not met. Most discus with tapeworms look perfectly healthy in all areas, but just don't seem to grow if they are younger fish. They defecate normal feces. At times, the tapeworm segments will appear at the anal opening. Tapeworms cannot be spread by direct methods after they leave the host fish, even if other discus eat the segs, as I have seen happen more than once. The tapeworm needs an intermediate host, like a tubifex worm, CBW or copepod, which then is eaten by the fish, to spread.

Prazi will kill the tapeworms in 12-24 hrs. in most cases, but will not kill a nematode. I perfer levamisole to piprizine if you are just adding it to the water. Kanamyacin would be my choice as a first start on a bacterial infection.

Mat

[aquagal]

Mat--

Thank you for your very informative lesson on tapeworms. I am becoming an expert! I certainly did not know the fish had tapes at all. Externally, they looked fine. So, that certainly jives with your explanation.

In a situation like mine, where it seems the fish seem to have equal chances of having a secondary bacterial infection or nematodes, how shall I select the best regime? Is it better to treat for a possible bacterial infection first and them deworm?

Also on the back burner, I just finished a formalin treatment on Sunday to try to kick flukes. I don't want to overload them w/ meds. How long shall I wait to start another treatment?

Thanks again.

Sherry

[ShinShin]

Sherry,

Formalin is a gas that disapates out of the water rather quickly. I wouldn't hesitate to move on with treatment here. Its an oxidizer and is not absorbed by the discus, UNLESS the discus has an open lesion or cut, in which case, it can be very toxic and lethal.

Mat

[aquagal]

Thanks Mat, I will. Flashing and clamping seems to have improved. Still have two that are not eating and w/ yellow, slimy poop.

I ordered some Levamisole and hope it will arrive Monday so I can start the treatment.

Thanks again for the advice!

Sherry