Need some advice

[Bluemarlin]

I have 8 Discus in a 120 BB tank, 6 are juvies 2 are adults.
Water tests are all fine, and I change 50% aged and heated water every day.

A few weeks ago I saw a few flashing and rubbing on the air hose.
OK no problem I thought a fluke outbreak.

I do have a scope but don't like taking smears unless I have to as I feel its too stressful on a sick fish.

SO I break out the Prazi and treat.
Nothing, nodda, zip, zero... did not work.

I took a smear and looked at it through the scope, best I can tell from what I saw appeared to be Chilodnella.

What I saw was Round(almost perfect round) what appeared to be spores and the pics I could find were close to Chilodnella at 400X. just very hard to tell.

So now we have most in the tank darting, scratching against objects, fluttering/beating there fins and shy and shaking there head from side to side and 4 are lethargic hiding under the filter.
Looking at them head on with a magnifying glass there appears to be a whitish sheen to the sides
4 out of the 8 are eating 4 of the juvies are not.

I have added salt to the tank and started quick cure @ 1 drop per gal as of yesterday.
Scratching "seems" to be a bit less this AM.

Am I on the right track with the QC and salt? Or should I be doing something else????

At this point if the QC does not work I plan on a PP treatment.

Any advice would be helpful.
Thanks
Doug

[aquagal]

Doug--

What you describe is very similar to what I've been experiencing the past 2-3 weeks. I have five juvenilles in a QT tank that began to flash, clamp gills, and some had flared gills. About 2 weeks ago, 2 of them stopped eating and started passing yellow poop.

I treated w/ PraziPro for 9 days and saw no relief at all from any of the symptoms, but the fish all passed tape worms (I guess that is good).

At Al's suggestion, I treated w/ just Formalin and salt twice now and it seems to have helped w/ the flashing and gill clamping. The two are still not eating. Again, at Al's suggestion, I ordered some Levamisole (which I hope to get Monday) and I'm going to treat for nematodes, which I hope is the source of the yellow poop and loss of appetite.

I'm not sure whether what appears to be external parasites could cause them to stop eating. You might have a secondary [internal] thing like me that may require a dewormer? I certainly am not an expert but feel your pain.

Sherry

[Graham]

Doug Chil moves around a lot and is more like a swimming potato

http://www.fototime.com/9D29F93BD2D13E9/standard.jpg

Oodinium doesn't move around much at all and has a lot of stuff/spores within it's cell. It will give a fish a greenish/golden sheen on its side.

http://www.fototime.com/C69C0623BCA7F42/standard.jpg

These look familiar??

Sherry external parasites sure can take away appetite

[ShinShin]

How do you do water changes? Stored or from the tap? If from the tap like I do, I'd add saly @ 4-5 tbs./10 gal of water, wait 20-30 minutes, and then do a massive water change. I might even lay the fish on their sides. Fill and use your formalin/MG. Formalin/MG is a great combo for killing protozoa. Continue with large daily water changes.

The fish could be stressed to the point that their appetite diminishes.

Mat

[Bluemarlin]

aquagal, Thanks its a Pain huh :) Thanks for the advice!

Graham, looks like the Oodinium and it did not move much.
I can go do another smear to be sure tho, I will do that now.

Matt
Yes I store tap for 24 hrs in a lg trash can and do a water change from that.
You say "I'd add 4-5 tbs./10 gal" of what? Salt?

[Bluemarlin]

After further review under the scope pretty much nothing is moving. but what I found looks more like Chilodnella all though a few looked like Oodinium(very little color to them) Dark filed and Light filed.
and looked under 1000X and a few looked like Trichodina but with no stain its very hard to tell as everything looks transparent.

Doug

[Graham]

trich is very easy to see even at 100x

Close down the aperture to get more contrast all bugs are basically transperant

[Bluemarlin]

Every thing I saw Graham was at 400X not much popped out at 100X
And like I said really no movement to speak of, but at 400X lots look like the first pic but rounder:confused:

[Bluemarlin]

3 of the worst ones died*sigh*

[ShinShin]

Yes, salt. I like to hit the bug (ectoparasites) with a strong salt treatment. Osmotic pressure forces the water inside the cell membrane out into the salt water. Then, immediately fill with freshwater with whatever chemical I am using. Add the medication as you are filling. The bug will rehydrate with the chemically treated water, making it more effective. If you can't do that large of a water change (like 95%), you can dip the fish in a bucket of heavily salted water then into the medicated tank. Make sure the tank is medicated first.

Mat

[Bluemarlin]

Did the salt treatment and then back into a clean medicated tank.
The 5 that are left seem a bit better after there salt dip.
Much more movement anyway

[ShinShin]

If you can do this daily for several days, go ahead. One treatment is not enough.

Mat

[Masonic]

Doug--

What you describe is very similar to what I've been experiencing the past 2-3 weeks. I have five juvenilles in a QT tank that began to flash, clamp gills, and some had flared gills. About 2 weeks ago, 2 of them stopped eating and started passing yellow poop.

I treated w/ PraziPro for 9 days and saw no relief at all from any of the symptoms, but the fish all passed tape worms (I guess that is good).

At Al's suggestion, I treated w/ just Formalin and salt twice now and it seems to have helped w/ the flashing and gill clamping. The two are still not eating. Again, at Al's suggestion, I ordered some Levamisole (which I hope to get Monday) and I'm going to treat for nematodes, which I hope is the source of the yellow poop and loss of appetite.

I'm not sure whether what appears to be external parasites could cause them to stop eating. You might have a secondary [internal] thing like me that may require a dewormer? I certainly am not an expert but feel your pain.

Sherry
hey all im pretty new with these fish. could someone please explain to me .how do this type of things get introduced to a tank? inform me please

[Graham]

Actually it's pretty simple...assuming that nothing new has been introduced to the tank...........all fish have an ambient level of parasites on them. The varieties may vary but there are critters present. The immune system of a healthy fish is quite capable of defending the fish , so there is no problem

When the fish is stressed, which depresses it's immune system and the conditions are right for a particular parasite then that critter increases it's numbers to become a problem...........that's when we step in

When a fish gets expoused to a new parasite that it hasn't had to cope with, then it may get sick, even if it was healthy to start with.

Alway QT and add an exisiting fish to the QT with the new guys

G

[Masonic]

ty for the response

[Bluemarlin]

Well nothing helped:( I have lost all of them.
The ones that hurt the most was the pair of RSG adults. ton of money down the tubs*sigh*
I am now bleaching everything.
well when I can afford more fish I will be back.......:sad:

Thanks for all the help.

Doug

[aquagal]

Doug--

I am sorry for your loss. Seems like I've been reading a lot on this forum lately about fish loss. Why are these fish so susceptible to disease? It's can really be demoralizing sometimes...

Sherry

[MostlyDiscus]

Matt, how long is your dip into salt and at what ratio of tbsp to gals?

[Graham]

Doug--

I am sorry for your loss. Seems like I've been reading a lot on this forum lately about fish loss. Why are these fish so susceptible to disease? It's can really be demoralizing sometimes...

Sherry


Sherry, fairly sensitive fish to start with, but IMO they've been so inbred at this point to achieve all the Smarties colours and patterns that they basically have very little immune system left. So when they do have a problem or don't have water that suits them they get ''something'' and it becomes an up hill battle.

Then if the hobbyist doesn't really know what they're fighting and is guessing, that just compounds the problem.

Graham

[aquagal]

Graham--

I agree with you totally! It's really too bad that they are not more hardy. Are wilds more hardy because they have immune systems that are used to fighting off bugs?

I also wonder why is it that discus require cleaner water than other types of fish? Do they require cleaner water because [domestics] are raised that way. If the fish were raised from the start with a less rigorous WC schedule, would they just adapt...I wonder?

Sorry for hyjacking the thread...it just seems like a lot of people have been reporting losses lately. I also am struggling with sick fish who are not responding well to treatment.

Thanks!

Sherry

[Graham]

I would think that wilds have a good strong immune system, but they also do not get expoused to a lot pf parasites. The water is so acidic that not much can live in it, from what I can see. They would also have just an overall healthy metabolism, considering the abuse they take getting to us they would need it..

On the other hand you've got inbred domestics, that are pamperd with pristine water, being expoused to no levels of pathogentic bactaria or ambient parasite populations, so they can't build up a strong immune system.

That are then shipped off to LFS or hobbyists tanks that may have all of the above and somewhat poorer water, who are probably not QT'd and then we wonder why they get sick.

G

[Bluemarlin]

I tend to agree with you Graham.
IMO we need to cross the domestics back with wilds to improve the immune system and overall health of the fish, this has been done extensively with Angels.
I think we need to take a lesson from them as they were the same way 13 years ago, very frail and fell to illness at the drop of a hat.

[aquagal]

yup. We see a lot of pics posted of juvenilles, I wonder how many actually make it to adulthood....

I have done everything right w/ my latest batch [of imports] -- QT, daily WCs using aged water, good clean food, etc. -- and I'm still dealing with sick fish.

[ShinShin]

Mostly,

I use a 5gal bucket and about 4-5 tbs salt. I add an airstone and dip 15-20 minutes.

mat