Gernal state of the hobby and environmental issues (KINDA LONG)

[Imperialdiscus]

Before I say anything, just so my position is clear here and there are no mistakes, I believe in being ecologically friendly within reason. I do not fall into the raving tinfoil hat crowd which seems to be the majority when it comes to the environment, but I don't burn mountains of tires in my yard soaked in fuel to get a blacker burn either.

In the recent past, some of my eco-friendly projects have been tankless water heaters in the house, and we are getting a complete solar system (full roof panels) installed to completely eliminate the electric bill. In the fall, we are trading in our 2005 Dodge Durango SUV, for a 2009 Durango SUV which is a 3 phase Hybrid, I can run all gas when I need the power, all electric for local trips, or a combination of the 2. It's supposed to be roughly 25% more fuel efficient than the current models. It will have to do until Hydrogen Fuel cel cars are on the market.

It's not part of any crusade on my part to be green, it was more motivated by what it actually costs me. If I can drive all over the place without paying 4.00 for gas, all the better. Being Eco friendly is a responsible side effect of saving money..

Recently I was involved in a discussion regarding "we are going to run out of water!" hysteria with some tinfoil hat types. And it occurred to me that as Discus fanciers, we blow through an awful lot of fresh water. Some Discus guys to the tune of tens of thousands of gallons per year. This had me wondering about reasonable and cost effective methods of water reclamation we could employ in the hobby to avoid the huge waste of water that comes with aquaculture, especially Discus.

Obviously it is possible for 100% of that waste water that we throw out can be reclaimed and used again. The big question is can it be done at a cost factor that makes it reasonable?
I had been researching the subject back in the mid 90's, but I never really followed through on it as there were other concerns in my life to deal with back then, newly married, first child etc.

Some of the solutions I had been researching were an electrical charge type of de-ionization, but it was pretty expensive as I recall. It basically removed everything but perfectly clean plain water.

Others were resin based filtration methods and de-ionization tanks. However recharging resins was messy, used dangerous chemicals, and was pretty expensive.

Thoughts??

[LizStreithorst]

I irriate my roses and shrubs with my WC water. This is a very low tech thing but it works great. Bigger holes for the larger plants, smaller holes for the little plants. Pics are self explanitory. I used to use my RO waste as water for my grow outs but down here the kH is too high for that.

[LizStreithorst]

the rest

[Imperialdiscus]

Yes, I did consider that, since the contents of the cast off water is great for growing plants. So that certainly saves on things like watering the lawn/plants.

If act, not sure where I saw it now, Aquatic Eco-Systems maybe, they had a water system for recycling aquarium water for plants. A touch on the expensive side, it was basically a small plant table, tank and pump system.

I'm thinking more along the lines of being able to reuse the changed water back in the tanks again was where I was going with this.

[cyril]

Great subject guys, all of my waste water goes straight to my lawn but we discus keepers sure waste too much water

[MostlyDiscus]

I put a t valve on the end of my ro waste line. I use a 700 gal a day Merlin that has a booster pump inline. By using the valve I dont use the pump thus saving electricity. The waster water is reduced by 90% at least, those who use a Merlin with booster know the waste shoots out. I have mine down to a trickle. Its been 6 months and I see no lose in my membranes. If anything they have become more efficent. I did this to save money, no tin hats no group hugs plz Ed

[Peachtree Discus]

i figured discus owners should have some of the most beautiful lawns. i am trying to get to the point of waste water going to my lawn. i tried searching some posts here but never found anything. right now my wife uses for some of her plants...but i am greatly "overflowing" her needs.

[RickMay1]

Let me bring up a point. Here in eastern Utah no matter how much water I use and flush down the drain, the water is filtered and then dumped back into a river. That water goes down the river and is reused by every city along the way. Eventually that water ends up in the ocean. Now, how many times was that water filtered and reused? Likely several. If I take that same water and dump it on my lawn, it’s used once. The idea is gross, I’ll agree, but water is not a one-use item. It happens along every river in the world.

Over-watering your lawn, simply because it’s that or you dump it down the drain is not ecologically friendly, its more ecologically friendly to dump it down the drain, where it will be filtered, released back into a river or lake where it can be used again.

As far as reusing the water that you purchased and used in your tanks is a great idea, but if you are over watering you are wasting it. Use what your plants need, but send the rest down the drain, it gets reused that way.

[Imperialdiscus]

well to bring this back to my original point as it seems to have gotten side tracked, yes using that water on your lawns is fine. it has nutrients that are good for your plants.

That water WILL end up back int he ground water table though, just not as directly as it going down the drain.

But I wasn't talking about multiple uses for the excess water. I was talking about doing partial water changes, taking the "contaminated" water from the tanks, pumping it into a storage tank, then filtering it back to usable fresh water that can go back into the discus tank. Reducing the amount of waste water.

If you have a lot of tanks, the water bill can be extremely expensive. Normally for a small hobbyist setup, I'd say who cares about the excess water. When you start talking 100 tanks or more, it starts to get expensive.

I'm currently looking into filtration systems that can do this, preferably at a reasonable cost. I've had conversations with a number of water treatment equipment vendors today to discuss plans on this.

Somewhat humorously I considered the possibility of selling Aquarium water as a lawn care product with that Billy Mays guy pitching it on infomercials :)

[brewmaster15]

I think this a great topic, I like to consider myself environmentally active and proactive in as many issues as I can be.... The water issue for me is a real problem that really makes me uncomfortable with this hobby....and one that I am constantly trying to offset....

Like others here I recycle my fish room water to my gardens...
I've seriously looked into adapting commercial "grey water" systems for homes that use "grey water" to flush toilets....but it didn't look feasible....


I have plans to use my RO waste water as an automatic water for my hen house.

I do believe we have a responsibility to be conservative in our use of natural resources like water.... and the electricity required to bring it to us in a clean form.....but I also need to consider my responsibility and needs as an aquarium Hobbyists.......I have looked high and low for filtration options and when my new fishroom goes online (due to finances.. its only 1 year late on its initial starting!:()...I'll be setting it up into various racks to try different things...like recirculating systems that are mini forms of those used more and more frequently in aquaculture.

Theres technology out there that can allow you to get more mileage out of your water,,,,but alot of that is commercially availible only a large scale... dealing with huge aquaculture facilities...few are mass produced that can be scaled down to hobbyists facilities....and then theres the cost factor....economically its still cheaper to use clean new water...rather than risk your livestock crashing or investing in expensive high tech filtration...Its also in my opinion sadly short sighted.. But as costs go up for water and utilities...more and more of these systems are being used and the technology is getting better and more affordable.

Another issue thats involved with recirculating systems is they tend work best in a closed system, IMO.... for commercial production at least... by this I mean... you buy your fry in mass or harvest from your breeder... grow them out to marketable size... and ship them out....begin again... What you don't do is add livestock to the system from multiple sources and suppliers which is an important distinction from a disease introduction point of view...unfortunately... the acquisition of new stock for discus hobbyists/breeders is one of the most active areas....and so I would be very concerned about disease introduction.


Just my random thoughts on this... I'd encourage anyone interested in this to post info on anything they see that may useful to us in this area.

Thanks,
al

[Imperialdiscus]

Obviously you already know what I am about to say Al, this is posted for those who may not know or are curious about the subject.

In general, a closed system works fairly well, even when you are introducing new fish to a system. since about 1989, I have used a central filtration system very similar to what Andrew Koh outlines in his Discus: The Naked Truth book on page 48. Although mine has a bit more equipment as part of the system. I've had many people comment to me on the possibility of wiping out my collection by way of disease, which I tell them is unlikely to happen if you take proper precautions and use a little common sense.

A secondary Quarantine system is all that is required. Of course depending on how much fish you bring in from outside sources, that can be a bit of a pain to deal with, especially if it is multiple sources. Add to that, if you are bringing in fish from say 3 different breeders in volume, you are going to want to separate those into 3 different quarantine systems or be certain that each tank is running on only internal filters and not a recirculating system. Then you have to be certain that you don't cross contaminate tanks with wet hands, nets or other items that might go into the tank.

that can of course end up being extremely problematic.

On the subject of water conservation, the issue is largely being erroneously blown out of proportion. While I'm not a scientist by way of phD, I have a strong background in science.
Waste water, ends up back in nature anyway. It's not like it's somehow gone when it goes down the drain. The hysteria claims about wasting water and running out of water are largely nonsense.

lawn water ends up seeping back into the water table anyway. Ever hear the tinfoil hat crowd going on about how you shouldn't use pesticides on your lawn because it can contaminate the water table? If the pesticides on your lawn end up in the water table, why do they think the water you use on your lawn is just gone? sprinkler water ends up back in the water table jsut like pesticides do.

Nature, through evaporation also recycles tons of water. It goes up, it comes back down.

Man and animals die. Our bodies are 98% water. Is that water gone for good? Nope. we decomp, the moisture seeps into the ground and is recycled by nature. plants absorb it, they grow, balance is restored.

There is however one point of credibility in this for the alarmist side, in that the Earth's population is growing faster than is really sustainable long term. That said, more water is being retained with 6 billion "containers" than if the population were a more reasonable 2-3 billion "containers" That is water that is outside the system, and thus, detracts from the supply of fresh water. In effect, the "running out of fresh water" claims would be accurate if the population expanded to over 12 billion for example. Which is a possibility, but then consider with that kind of population density, global pandemic from something as simple as a common flue would likely kill 10's of millions if not hundreds of millions.

Geez. I sound like the grim reaper....

Anyway.... I made some calls yesterday and I'm trying to get some info on resin recycling systems right now to see if the costs are more effective and practical than they were back in 1995.

I'm also trying to track down info on the de-ionization systems I saw back in the 90's that used positive and negative charges to generate clean water.

I'll post what I find as I find it.

[RickMay1]

As long as we are considering the environmental impact, consider what treatments the resins require, if they are needing periodic recharging, what happens to the acid you use to recharge, are you dumping it down the drain (may be far more environmentally unfriendly than used water) or does the resins just go into the trash (again maybe less environmentally friendly). The “Tinfoil hat” folks really have a hard time considering the “big picture” concepts. A lot of them think that once they throw something away it’s gone. Case in point, Compact florescent lighting, (those bulbs that replace incandescent lights) yes they use less power (and I prefer the light they produce), but there are trade offs. The “tinfoil hat” folks lose sight that CFL’s have 5mg of mercury which in most of the country are put into the landfill,

[ashaysathe]

Very noble thoughts and a great discussion. I am a month old to this discus hobby and water changes on the only 75 g tank I have makes my heart sink. The reason why it gets jolted more is in my past life I have been in situation several times where I had to go down 3 floors at 5 AM in a multi-story apt complex, fill buckets with water and bring them up into my own house to meet the basic daily needs and this is no exaggeration. So the point that water can be an issue is not blown out of proportion, who knows our hobby can cumulatively be a disaster for our own future generations.. one can argue who would be here to see that.. but that would be very sel-fish.
We all would agree that we are discussing here is coexistence of Necessity and Luxury aka hobby.
I would argue this with the start that have we ourselves posed a question to our self that what is the optimal or maximum amount of water we suppose to consume to nurture our hobby? If we can answer this we can answer how can we conserve this water. For the past week and a half I have been using the tank water to my lawn but being in North East US I can do this for 6 months. What when winter comes?
In a big picture, yes in a circle of life it all becomes a symbiotic ecosystem but less pressure we put on the ecosystem, more efficient is the system going to be for now and in future. I urge each and every one not to have this discussion for the sake of it but make our self accounted for and do something about it.. who knows our grand kids might not be as resourceful as we fortunately are today.

[brewmaster15]

On the subject of water conservation, the issue is largely being erroneously blown out of proportion. While I'm not a scientist by way of phD, I have a strong background in science.
Waste water, ends up back in nature anyway. It's not like it's somehow gone when it goes down the drain. The hysteria claims about wasting water and running out of water are largely nonsense.

Well... we are digressing a bit... but I have to disagree here.:) If you draw water out of one aquifer...where its pumped miles away and used....then becomes waste water.....It does not replenish the aquifer it was drawn from.... yes...it may do so to another one elsewhere and there is not a net loss of water... but there is movement to another area.

A perfect illustration of water tables complexity... I grew up in a house on a hill.. we had great water pressure great supply...my neighbor ...literally a few hundred yards away.... went thru 3 wells.... no pressure.... high fracting of the wells.....people often think of the water table as this flat layer of water under the ground that you sink a well into and draw out the water...its not...the water table is high in some areas , low in others... it depends on the substrate of the water table... its is very possible to draw out the water of an aquifer and deplete it.... in many areas wells are the source of water in... but sewers carry that waste water away...and it usually ends up in the ocean.... hit an area with a drought or population explosion and you'll see just how important conservation becomes.

Theres one other factor here that is playing a greater and great role in water issues... intrusion of seawater into our fresh water aquifers..... As we draw out the fresh water... Seawater is drawn in...This is a major issue globally in low lying coastal areas....and one we deal with now in major agricultural areas like Florida... and even urban areas like Los angeles, CA..
examples
http://pubs.usgs.gov/fs/2002/fs030-02/
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/07/070727091903.htm
http://water.usgs.gov/ogw/gwrp/saltwater/salt.html
http://www.nwfwmd.state.fl.us/pubs/hgl_western_domain/hgl_western_domain.html

A quick search on the net for Saltwater+intrusion+ aquifers will tell you more..



So while I agree that the water isn't "Lost" per say when used...its not like it returns to its point of origin..... Water taken from point A goes to point B...not back to Point A... and so you need to ask yourself... How much water does point A have to be used in such a fashion.... thats going to depend on its aquifers and reservoirs, the rate they are replenished by rainfall and seasonal Ice melts, minus the rates they are depleted by all this is going on. Conservation is important and will be increasingly more so, IMO.

-al:)

[Imperialdiscus]

Those are some excellent points Rick.

On the resins, they are not thrown out, they are saturated with acids again and can be used over and over. One thing I would throw out there regarding the acid itself, consider it used used to charge resins that are filtering drinking water. I would suspect that an ecological impact is probably minimal, but that is a question I'll pose just to be sure.

Also I'm glad you brought up the light bulb thing as brings up another interesting point, even though it is going off topic a bit, the subject was started as an effort to address environmentally friendly and efficient ways to maintain the hobby.

Hybrid vehicles, like the Prius for example, have proven to be nothing short of devastating to the environment around the factories that produce them. I had read some links on the web a few months ago detailing the absolute ecological disaster that the areas around the factory that produces those batteries have suffered. Add to that all the fuel consumed shipping materials back and forth, and back again to produce them. Most people are probably not aware of this. End result is that the Prius is nothing more than a feel good placebo, allowing the owner to feel that he is contributing to the good health of the planet and independence from foreign oil, when the reality is that their single Prius has done more damage to the planet than their neighbors gas guzzling SUV. Even my own Hybrid purchase plans might be nothing more than just my own fuel savings.

It seems to me that as far as cars go, the hydrogen Fuel Cell is probably the best alternate energy source we could develop. As an extension of practical Hydrogen Fuel cells, we'll also see Hydrogen cell powered generators instead of gas generators, and hydrogen powered heating systems to replace natural gas systems now in use. Both of which woudl also greatly benefit the aquaculture community.

I'm not a big fan of the whole Bio fuel from corn thing (yet another ridiculous "treehugger" idea) because it causes more problems that it solves. short term, it sounds great. but to be viable, you lose food crops to do it, causing worldwide hunger problems far greater than we face now. it falls into the category of stupidity fixes like Australia got itself into, importing non indigenous animals to control pest populations. Each import ended up becoming a worse problem that the problem it was brought in to fix. Example, they imported Dingoes from Africa to control rabbit populations. DUMB DUMB DUMB.

The best way to fix a problem is to do it right the first time, even if it means that initially, some sacrifices need to be made. The short term sacrifice is a lot easier to deal with than a long term consequence.




As long as we are considering the environmental impact, consider what treatments the resins require, if they are needing periodic recharging, what happens to the acid you use to recharge, are you dumping it down the drain (may be far more environmentally unfriendly than used water) or does the resins just go into the trash (again maybe less environmentally friendly). The “Tinfoil hat” folks really have a hard time considering the “big picture” concepts. A lot of them think that once they throw something away it’s gone. Case in point, Compact florescent lighting, (those bulbs that replace incandescent lights) yes they use less power (and I prefer the light they produce), but there are trade offs. The “tinfoil hat” folks lose sight that CFL’s have 5mg of mercury which in most of the country are put into the landfill,

[brewmaster15]

I think this topic has really gone off track.....

Lets get back to the filtration and water ideas..... I think there was real merit in the practical application of this to the hobby...

thanks,
al

[Imperialdiscus]

So while I agree that the water isn't "Lost" per say when used...its not like it returns to its point of origin..... Water taken from point A goes to point B...not back to Point A... and so you need to ask yourself... How much water does point A have to be used in such a fashion.... thats going to depend on its aquifers and reservoirs, the rate they are replenished by rainfall and seasonal Ice melts, minus the rates they are depleted by all this is going on. Conservation is important and will be increasingly more so, IMO.-al:)


You made far too many points for me to want to quote them all since I agree with them 100% anyway, so I'll stick with this one.

I didn't mean to imply that water didn't get moved around, just that as you stated, the total water volume remains constant, even if it is redistributed.

I was only arguing against the point of view that somehow once water was gone, it's gone for good, which is the impression the alarmists are trying to make.

[ashaysathe]

Totally agreed to what Al says and thats exactly what I was getting at in my post earlier. In this ecosystem resources revolve and rotate but once a resources leaves one point, that resource does not get that in as efficient way as we might think. Conversation is necessary and when we draw analogies here please bear in mind that nothing is as close a necessity as water.

But moving from water conservation to efficient filteration schemes - which is what the topic is - what can one do? what can I do? I can water my lawn for six months but what for the other six months of winter? and what is the cost associated with it? I mean to put that filteration or water recycling system in place what is the optimal # of tanks or gallons one should have?

[RickMay1]

Imperialdiscus,
I couldn't agree with you more, the whole "environmentalist" bandwagon is driven by the "Prius". That vehicle is bought so they can show other "tinfoil hat" environmentalist how "responsible” they are, and so they can look down their noses at SUV (that in truth are more environmentally friendly) IMO the bandwagon environmentalist are the biggest threat to the environment that there is. This is the same bandwagon that opposed the use of DDT resulting in the death of an estimated billion people through Malaria.

Now back to the subject,

I think you could also take the approach of trying to duplicate nature in your water reuse system (but It would take lots of room) that would involve trying to recreate the natural filtering system of a river. I think if you could pass the water through enough media, both anaerobic and aerobic you could end up with water that could be used again. Maybe running it through a ton of sand (creating an anaerobic environment), then sprinkling it onto a ton of gravel (a super aerobic environment). Would do the job, maybe a third stage where it runs through a system filled with plants that could use minerals up.. That would be a small version of how sewage treatment plants are able to return raw sewage to water clean enough to drink.

[Imperialdiscus]

I think you could also take the approach of trying to duplicate nature in your water reuse system (but It would take lots of room) that would involve trying to recreate the natural filtering system of a river. I think if you could pass the water through enough media, both anaerobic and aerobic you could end up with water that could be used again. Maybe running it through a ton of sand (creating an anaerobic environment), then sprinkling it onto a ton of gravel (a super aerobic environment). Would do the job, maybe a third stage where it runs through a system filled with plants that could use minerals up.. That would be a small version of how sewage treatment plants are able to return raw sewage to water clean enough to drink.


Ideally, that is the best way to do it. But on a small scale near to impossible to accomplish. The amount of space required would be phenomenal, and there are other biological considerations in the equation that could not be compensated for by trying to use a strictly natural approach.

Ideally, we would want to drain tanks, store the water for a SHORT period of time to filter it and be able to have that water available quickly. Is it possible it can be done on a small scale? not a clue. I hope so.

[MostlyDiscus]

Good points Imperial.... I heard Senator Warner on the radio this morning and he was so proud of the fact that he drove hybids, (as he was asked by the morning radio host) I laughed. Its all about how it appears for votes. I still say I use the valve off my ro waste to save money. I do use carbon to filter out meds, including what goes down the drain so that I dont have to buy stronger more exspensive meds l8ter. Its about the money, not hugs

[brewmaster15]

Theres been a tremendous amount of research and development done on hydroponics... and I think if one had the interest...some of the dual systems where by waste water is used for hydroponics is a possibility.


I think a good way to go about planning filtration systems that we are talking about is step by step... just what are you trying to remove? from the water to make it re-usable for Discus.? Theres a alittle personal Point of view in this as we all don't agree on exactly what that is... but I would list the following...

Mechanical filtration
Biological filtrations for ammonia and nitrite possibly nitrates
chemical filtration especially for nitrate removal
Dissolved organics removal
UV....(every major aquarium utilizes it.)
ozone treatments?
Chemical disinfection?... maybe bleach...

am I forgetting anything?

-al

[Apistomaster]

I don't know of any technology or natural process that can be scaled down to be practical for individuals. Huge amounts of waste water must be treated before economies of scale are realized. Typically, these must be of a scale that qualifies as Public Works projects.

I have thought about this for many years. I also worked for the former Public Agency in Seattle called "Metro." This is the agency credited for saving Lake Washington from the edge of death. So I know a bit about water quality issues and treatment processes.
There was nothing small about that undertaking. It took and still does many billions of $$$.

There is one process that just might be almost practical but it would take a great deal of surface area. A very simple but large solar still. Imagine an inverted green house over the waste water. The heat evaporates pure water vapor which then condenses on the inverted cooler cone and trickels down to the apex of the cone where it is collected for reuse. This method produces distilled water which would be similar to RO water in that remineralization would be required due to the purity of the water. The construction costs rule out the usefulness of such a design but every thing is solar and if pumps are required then solar panels could be used to move the clean water to the storage container using electric pumps powered by the solar panels during the day. Recirculating water through black pipes exposed to the sun could be used via heat exchange system to warm the waste water to increase the evaporation rate of the waste water. Every thing would happen during the day since it is entirely dependent on solar power.
Sludge could be reclaimed from the waste water area and be used as a soil amendment or used to grow worms you can feed your discus. One could take it a step further and grow vegetables year around inside the enclosure.
This is about the most ecologically sound water recycling system I can imagine.

[Imperialdiscus]

I don't know of any technology or natural process that can be scaled down to be practical for individuals. Huge amounts of waste water must be treated before economies of scale are realized. Typically, these must be of a scale that qualifies as Public Works projects.


Based on some conversations I have had this afternoon with companies providing water purification systems for zoos and aquariums, it is practical, and on a scale that is reasonable for individuals.

One or two tank hobbyists? it would probably be more of a waste of time and money. for intermediate hobbyists with a dozen or so tanks, maybe. For breeders with 1000 gallons of water or more, definitely realistic.

Aquarium waste water isn't even remotely comparable to the kind of muck that ends up in waste water processing plants like you are referring to. Technically, it's fairly clean water to start with by comparison and some of the suggestions offered were reasonable, but it's going to require a bit more research on my part before I make any real projections on costs.

[RickMay1]

Based on some conversations I have had this afternoon with companies providing water purification systems for zoos and aquariums, it is practical, and on a scale that is reasonable for individuals.



Do tell.

[Imperialdiscus]

Do tell.

I will. :)

[Rod]

it falls into the category of stupidity fixes like Australia got itself into, importing non indigenous animals to control pest populations. Each import ended up becoming a worse problem that the problem it was brought in to fix. Example, they imported Dingoes from Africa to control rabbit populations. DUMB DUMB DUMB.


Not sure where you got your information from, but i can assure you that statement is completely false.

[RickMay1]

Not sure where you got your information from, but i can assure you that statement is completely false.

I picked that up also, isnt the Dingo native to Australia?

[Imperialdiscus]

Not sure where you got your information from, but i can assure you that statement is completely false.


Sorry, my error, what I was looking for was importing cane toads to control BUG populations. I flipped that with the poisoning of rabbits to control populations, which in turn caused deaths of things which fed on the carcases. Sorry.

Unfortunately it was based on having heard it when I was stationed on the Island of Guam in the 1980's, a quick Google search provided what I was thinking of when I typed it earlier today:


Cane toads have proven themselves to be one of Australia's worst environmental disasters. Since 1935, they have spread across most of Queensland, they are almost entirely across the Northern Territory (only 75 km from the WA border) including the world-reknowned wetlands of Kakadu. Their numbers are profuse in the dry southeast Queensland area (or were until 2002 when another new disease problem emerged in Queensland) and they are spreading down the NSW coast. Quite a few have hitched a ride down to Sydney in vegetable trucks and they have established themselves at the 2000 Olympics site (at Homebush Bay in Sydney's inner western suburbs). This area of Sydney is also the largest remaining NSW stronghold for the endangered Green and Golden Bell frog (Litoria aurea). (One thing this endangered frog definitely does not need is another threat.)

Toads are responsible for the reduction of many species of Australian wildlife and the Northern Territory is currently a living research laboratory where researchers are documenting the changes to predator animal numbers such as crocodiles and quolls. The Northern Territory government has already taken preventative steps to help save the quoll population by relocating numbers of them to offshore islands until another toad reduction method can be found

[Greg Richardson]

In the fall, we are trading in our 2005 Dodge Durango SUV, for a 2009 Durango SUV which is a 3 phase Hybrid, I can run all gas when I need the power, all electric for local trips, or a combination of the 2.

Your profile doesn't state where you live. But I can guarantee you this if in the US every day you wait to try to trade that SUV in is another day of lost value. If you are able do it now. Many lots now have stopped taking SUV trade in's. That will obnly grow as time goes on. If they had half a brain they would have stopped a year ago. You might want to ask from a source not involved with the purchase of your next vehicle what the battery cost is when it's shot. Be sitting down.

I'm very glad to see alternative vehicles out there but after you get past the politically correct warm and fuzzy feelings and add up the cost will..........

[badisbadis101]

I do not know if this has come up before, but i recently got an idea of using aquarium water change water for flushing toilets. There is a detailed explanation that i just posted in the DIY section, and then i just stumbled across this - just a little ironic :P

Anyway, i would love to be able to make my hobby more environmentally friendly, and i am glad that others are thinking the same way :)

[RickMay1]

Last winter I bought a new vehicle for my wife, their was a hybrid model which we were considering however the cost of the hybrid was 10K more than a equally equipped non-hybrid now saving the environment is all well and good but 10K is just not realistic. consider this, even if gas gets to $5.00 per gallon, it would take 2000 gallons of fuel saved to make up in the difference in price. In the non-hybrid model 2000 gallons of fuel would go 50K miles. The numbers were just not in support of the hybrid. And the difference in gas mileage was only around 10mpg. I also don’t think the technology has gotten to the point that I would expect a hybrid to go for 100K miles without some major failure, and I know they aren’t cheap to repair. Plus, the manufacturing of hybrids (mainly the batteries) makes its impact on the environment “up front”, it turns out Hybrids are less environmentally friendly than a normal vehicle.

[JerryC]

I would think if you pumped your waist water into a storage container with a pump on it. You could run the water thru an RO unit with a low regect rate maybe 1:2 ratio and reclaim at least 1/3 of your water then you could pump that waist water into another container and do the same thing again. The containers would not have to be that big because you could be filtering it all day long. Just an idea.

[Imperialdiscus]

One of the suggestions made to me by the company I was talking to was to take the waste water and pumping it back through R/O AFTER running it through particle filtration and a carbon filter, giving a 2/3 usable water 1/3 waste.

this would be a pretty much off the shelf solution. What we are trying to work out is a 100% reclamation, which right now looks something like this:

1. Particulate filtration
2. biological filtration (fluid bed)
3. Carbon filtration
4. Ozone
5. UV
6. R/O
7. combination of DeIonization/chemical filters.

I'm pretty sure this would be the general order of filtration based on experience and my conversations. 1-5 is basically obvious.

Step 6 is going to give you pretty clean water, ready to reconstitute with minerals and trace elements/peat/whatever you use....but it's going to be slow as molasses unless you shell out really big bucks for a high end R/O unit. at step 7, you can reclaim the 1/3 waste water from the R/O through the DI bed giving you 100% reclamation in theory. But not very cost effective. It's more than the average hobbyist is going to be willing to spend.

However, I suspect that additional research will turn up a better approach.




I would think if you pumped your waist water into a storage container with a pump on it. You could run the water thru an RO unit with a low regect rate maybe 1:2 ratio and reclaim at least 1/3 of your water then you could pump that waist water into another container and do the same thing again. The containers would not have to be that big because you could be filtering it all day long. Just an idea.

[brewmaster15]

I'd asked RandalB about pumping your old water thru the RO unit awhile...... If I remember right....the problem with it is one of pressure required for the RO to work properly.
I'd don't remember all the details of the discussion but will Pm him to look here...

-al

[Imperialdiscus]

I'd asked RandalB about pumping your old water thru the RO unit awhile...... If I remember right....the problem with it is one of pressure required for the RO to work properly.
I'd don't remember all the details of the discussion but will Pm him to look here...

-al

Fortunately that is really only a minor problem and easily worked around on home grade R/O units.

Commercial R/O have a pump matched to the unit generally anyway, but again, far more expensive.

And FYI the other possibility that eliminates all the stages listed above would be capacitance de-ionization. No materials to change, no mess, no resins to recharge or handling of acids. Unfortunately this option might very well be far to expensive to be practical.

[Rod]

I picked that up also, isnt the Dingo native to Australia?

Yes, well native since the indigenous people first arrived. It is thought the Tasmanian Devil, now a threatened species due to a virus, was widespread throughout Australia and the dingo caused the mainland populations extinction apon its arrival. If this is true, then it is reasonable to assume that other aspects of the native fauna altered at this same time period.


Sorry, my error, what I was looking for was importing cane toads to control BUG populations. I flipped that with the poisoning of rabbits to control populations, which in turn caused deaths of things which fed on the carcases. Sorry.

Unfortunately it was based on having heard it when I was stationed on the Island of Guam in the 1980's, a quick Google search provided what I was thinking of when I typed it earlier today:


Cane toads have proven themselves to be one of Australia's worst environmental disasters. Since 1935, they have spread across most of Queensland, they are almost entirely across the Northern Territory (only 75 km from the WA border) including the world-reknowned wetlands of Kakadu. Their numbers are profuse in the dry southeast Queensland area (or were until 2002 when another new disease problem emerged in Queensland) and they are spreading down the NSW coast. Quite a few have hitched a ride down to Sydney in vegetable trucks and they have established themselves at the 2000 Olympics site (at Homebush Bay in Sydney's inner western suburbs). This area of Sydney is also the largest remaining NSW stronghold for the endangered Green and Golden Bell frog (Litoria aurea). (One thing this endangered frog definitely does not need is another threat.)

Toads are responsible for the reduction of many species of Australian wildlife and the Northern Territory is currently a living research laboratory where researchers are documenting the changes to predator animal numbers such as crocodiles and quolls. The Northern Territory government has already taken preventative steps to help save the quoll population by relocating numbers of them to offshore islands until another toad reduction method can be found

Hey no worries, i thought you may have mixed up a cpl of stories there. But i won't deny we have, are making, and will make some very poor ecological decisions concerning my country. I'm also sure that will be the same for every country around the world. For all our brilliance as a species, we are also incredibly dumb sometimes, lets hope we don't end up paying the ultimate price for our arrogance.

[discussmith]

Not to rain on any ones parade as I did enjoy much of the discussion, you should as a concerned hobbiest and/or naturalist really know where your water comes from and where it goes after you've used it. Some areas of the country are so desperate for water they would consider what we do criminal. I live in an area of extremely high water table and spend many $ to keep it out of my house. I pull water out of the ground and send it back to reseed the aquafer. It is efficient and inexpensive. Too bad it's great african chiclid water. The area has to be very concerned however that surface ground water that is trying to get to the 4 lakes is not comtaminated with yard fertilizers, insecticides, weed killers, or farm animal wastes as it has a tremendous detrimental effect when it does and it very often does. I live just outside the city and have no storm sewer so most of the water stays here. However in the city all kinds of contaminants are dumped into the sewer and make it into the area lakes.

Re-examine your steps to reclaim your water and you will see why it's not done. Except in the extreme shortage areas it just doesn't pay. I would love an R.O. unit that truly got 1:2.

You would be better off collecting rain water filtering it and dumping it back outside when you were done with it. Zero impact. Hopefully it would rain enough. I really wish I could use the ground water I move from under my basement 24/7/365.

[brewmaster15]

Hi Discussmith,
Thanks for the post here..It was interesting...I am curious of something..you mentioned your water is good african water cichlid water? what are the parameters of that water in your basement? can it be used for Growouts? I have used my RO waste for grow outs and somes well water is in the pH 8.0+ range ..still okay for discus raising in most cases.

thanks,
al

[GrillMaster]

This is a great discussion. :)

The place my wife an I are moving to has a brook running thru the property. It has a pump that pumps the brook water back up to the house. This water can go into a storage tank. aerated an heated. Though it is clean water, I am afraid that unwanted contaminants will be introduces to the storage tank.

What can I do if anything to make it Discus safe. This would be a huge cost saver for me!! What chemical or chemicals could I use to kill all the contaminants? I was thinking bleach, but I dont think I could dilute it enough before adding to the tanks.

[Dkarc@Aol.com]

To be honest, IMO what we do as a hobby as a whole (concerning water changes and the like) doesnt make THAT big of an impact. Granted, it is a mindset that is good to have but its not like each one of us is a commercial fish farmer changing 100,000+ gallons of water a day. For such small scale operations that each of us have I would see it fit to have a second use for the water, rather than try to reclaim and reuse it (it just doesnt make sense to reclaim it on such a small scale). Hydroponics is an awesome way to go about it. Grow aquatic plants that you can inturn resell to help recoup something from growing your fish. I know of a fish farm here in the South that grows a million metric tons of fish each year (tilapia). In an effort to minimize large daily exchange rates on such systems they grow basil. Last I heard they were collecting and shipping out around 100+ bushels of basil a week. It's all done hydroponically and the systems have seen an overall improvement of water quality and they have overall minimized their water use. I know of many commercial fish farms (not tropical, but commercial food fish farms) that use hydroponics to help maintain overall water quality to minimize their water use. It is a proven method and works very well. And if you seriously want to try to reclaim it, hydroponic systems along with some form of disinfecting agent (ozone for example) would all that is honestly needed. So long as it is devoid of suspended solids, free of ammonia/nitrite, reasonable nitrate levels, and nothing else toxic (heavy metals, or super saturated gasses for example) it could be reused. No need for R/O or D/I systems. What the fish honestly need is clean, clear water that is described like above for them to be healthy and grow at a reasonable rate. There are some smaller farms using this method with reasonable results on commercial ventures.

Biggest issue I see now a days though is that people dont know how to properly manage their water/tanks....which is the reason for such frequent water changes. But that in itself is an entire other subject that is a science and an art. That is for another thread.

Just my honest opinion and view from where I stand.

-Ryan

[discussmith]

Hi Al; I use my tap water as is (about 610 -620ms, or 320 ppm, Ph 8.5 - 9) its been so long since I checked I don't know the break down of KH but its high because the aquafer is embeded in limestone. I keep all my discus in this water except when I want to breed them and have had no problems doing so. I used to mix tap water back into RO thinking it was what had to be done just to keep discus here until my membrane failed and I was forced to use tap water for a while. There was no change in the health and appearance of my fish so I only messed with water for the sake of hatch rates when I was working with breeders. My comments about the africans were because when I used to keep them they bred like rabbits in this water and were not much of a challenge. Just feed them and change the water and take out the babies to prevent over stock.

I can't use the ground water for fish as with all the lawn care products and farm run off it is litterally full of crap. About 20 years ago 3 wells were condemned here because they only went down about 150 feet and were picking up contaminants. Most wells here are 300'+ deep.