Water Never Clear, Please Help!

[valkyrie66]

Hello, I have a problem with the water never being clear in my tank. It has never been 100% clear since day one, and recently it has been getting worse and worse... I assume I am having an algae bloom of some sort, and I assume this is in part due to the fairly high nitrate levels... but don't know what to do about that. The tank is in our office and I am a little embarrassed of how it must look to visitors...

The photo attached was taken one day after cleaning the tank, and it is pretty murky (greyish green water). I am at my whits end and I really want to fix this once and for all - whatever it takes. Please help!!

My setup:
- 340 LITER (sorry for earlier typo)
- setup time: 9 months
- filter: Eheim Pro Wet / Dry Canister 2229
- media: Eheim Ehfisubstrat
- 2 Eheim heaters set to temp of 29 C
- white sand bottom with a large piece of wood and one medium size onion plant (Crinum calamistratum)

Test results:
- pH 7.5
- ammonia 0
- nitrite 0
- nitrate 30

Stock:
- 6 discus (about 10 cm each)
- 1 bristlenose pleco (about 12 cm)
- 9 cardinal tetras

My routine:
- cleaning: 50% waterchange and sand vac 1/week
- the past two weeks I have swithced to 25% waterchange 2/week - no change
- I am using regular tap water (we have very soft water) and treat with 'Sera Aquatan'.
- filter cleaning: rinsing the media and casing using tank water about every 2-3 months
- lightbar is on 10 hrs per day, the tanks is no where near a window in center of room

Feeding:
I do not feed them a whole lot as it is... I feed the discus frozen food (turkey heart stuff) twice per day, 1 cube (about 2x1x1 cm) in the morning, and two cubes at night, and they eat up every bit in under a minute. The pleco gets a pellet 2/week, and tetras a small pinch 1/day. And since the tank is in the office, I used to have an autofeeder on the weekends, but since the water started getting worse (about 3 months ago) they now fast on the weekends - so no food at all for 2 days every weekend.


Do I need to get one more filter if I want to manage by cleaning 1-2 times per week - not 3+? The filter I have is rated for 600 L, so it should be enough for my bioload and then some, right? I intentionally intended to stock it light... If so, WHAT kind of filter do you recommend?

Sorry for the million questions! Thank you very much for any help!

[BSW]

Nice tank !
340, whew, that's a big one !
I'm not familar with the 'Sera Aquatan'. It might be great, but you might want to try switching to Prime, and see if that helps, an additional filter would probably help too. These were the stats on your filter -

Eheim Professionel Wet/Dry Filter 2229 with EHFISUBSTRAT 6L:
Aquarium Size: 159 gal
Filter Volume: 1.9 gal
Pump Output: 277 gph
Weight: 14 lbs

So your about 181 gallons short on capacity there. That is a very large tank, it's going to take alot of filtering and circulation help. And it's better to over filter some than pushing filters to their maximum capacity. You at least need another Eheim 2229 and possibly run a Magnum too, or something like that.
I'm a little confused though, you spoke of the tank in gallons 340 (1289L) and the filter capacity in Liters 600 (159G) either way though you are way under filtered. Or did you mean to say 340L (90G) If it's 340L not Gallons, the filter you have should be covering it.
Lucky you though !

B

[valkyrie66]

Nice tank !
340, whew, that's a big one !
Or did you mean to say 340L (90G) If it's 340L not Gallons, the filter you have should be covering it.
Lucky you though ! B

Yes.... soooo sorry, that was a typo. The tank I have is not quite that large (would be nice though!), it is a 340 LITER tank (90 gallon).

So my filter should be enough by my research... so what is the problem here? Thank you so much for taking the time to do the numbers for me, what do you think I should do give this new info? Thanks!!

PS! I noticed you are in the US, I used to use Prime too when we lived in the US, but I haven't seen it here in Sweden. Sera is one of the largest suppliers of fish stuff here, German company I believe, and the well reputed store where I bought my discus uses Aquatan for all their tanks so I think it is ok...

[aquagal]

Your tank looks more like a 90 gal than a 340 gal to me. If that's the case, you're filter should be fine. If your tank is really 340 gal, you need much more filtration.

I'm wondering whether you fully cycled this tank before adding fish? I had a cloudiness problem once when my filter crashed. I added a product called Nitromax (there are many different types to use), that added more beneficial nitrosomas bacteria and the problem resolved itself eventually.

Your nitrates are a little high (mine are in the 5-10 range), but I don't think this could be causing such green water. Someone w/ more knowledge needs to weigh in.

[valkyrie66]

Your tank looks more like a 90 gal than a 340 gal to me. Sorry, yes it is 340 liters (90 gallons).


I'm wondering whether you fully cycled this tank before adding fish?

Yes the tank was cycled before I added discus (ran it for a month with bacteria supplements and just the pleco) and had good readings when adding more fish. (pH 7,5, 0 ammonia, 0 nitrite, 5 nitrate - accordign to my notes from back then)

Thanks for your reply. Anyone else have ideas?

[bs6749]

Is the onion plant a bulb plant? If so, uproot the plant and see if the bulb is deteriorating badly.

It could possibly be the substrate causing the cloudiness too. If you didn't rinse the sand well when setting up the tank, you will have a lot of fine dust-like particles suspended in the water column whenever the water is disturbed, either from the pleco or from the bi-weekly water changes. The water can stay cloudy for 3 days or more as I know when setting up my shrimp tank with regular sand.

I doubt that it's the wood that is causing the water's color because the water would be brown and not green/gray.

Might not be algae though your nitrates certainly are high. You don't have a lot of plants in the tank to outcompete the algae so you may want to add some more. Look for something lowlight as it appears that you don't have any special light for plants over the tank. Anubias, and anacharis are some ones that you might want to consider to soak up excess nutrients that the algae thrive upon.

Also consider switching to a different food. Beefheart and turkey heart are MESSY foods. I'd try to switch to frozen bloodworms. Put what you need in a container and drain the bloodworms to minimize the "waste" put in tank. You don't need to rinse bloodworms normally but you are trying to figure out your problem.

Do these things and see if your water clears up in the next two weeks at most if it's an algae bloom. Try a 90% water change in the meantime.

[plecocicho]

I think that an indicator of your problem is high nitrate readings. So high nitrate readings are better known for freshwaters with very high bioload. Vast amounts of organic compounds are cosing an explosions of hetetrophic bacteria, that clouds the water. High nitrates are the closing product of amonia, that is an end product of food degradation. The feeding of beef hearth mixes is really meassy, that is why american aquarist tell you to do vast water changes. In the past when i fed discus with it, i had to do right the next day water changes. This is my proposal:stop feeding with beef hearth, and feed them with frozen food, but wery sparsly. Plug on another filter and lastly: Feed the discus water fleas, because those filter out heterotrophic bacteria and so clean your water. Noneexistance of amonia nad nitrie are a good indice that your tank has cycled. How high numbers of nitrate do you have in tap water?

[valkyrie66]

Try a 90% water change in the meantime.
Really?? That much! It won't throw off the balance in the filter and make it worse will it?


Is the onion plant a bulb plant? If so, uproot the plant and see if the bulb is deteriorating badly... It could possibly be the substrate causing the cloudiness too.... You don't have a lot of plants in the tank... Also consider switching to a different food.
Nope, checked the onion plant and it looks fine. I more or less uproot it everytime I clean anyway since I thoroughly vacuum through the sand every time. Don't think it is the sand. I did rinse it and the tank was not very cloudy the first few months, instead it is getting progressively worse. You are right, I do not have a special light bar, just regular aquarium lighting with one regular and one blue flourescent tube. I had some anubias nana and a java fern in there before (all low light), but the pleco ruins (eats) everything but the onion plant. I suppose I could get another one of those though?



I think that an indicator of your problem is high nitrate readings. ...stop feeding with beef hearth. Plug on another filter ...How high numbers of nitrate do you have in tap water?

What type of filter do you recommend? Another canister or an HOB? Why is this needed with the large filter I already have (600L capacity)?

Yes, the high nitrate readings are my concern too. The tapwater has NO nitrate att all in it, at least it does not register anyhing in the test.

The biggest polutor in the tank is definitely the pleco - he poops constantly, but I thought my bioload would be ok - even with him in it given the filter rating for twice the size tank? He does eat all of the leftover messy bits from the frozen turkey hearts though, so I thought he was doing more good than bad? But the general consensus here seem to be that I should switch food. This is what the store fed them, so how will I get them used to eating another type of food? I heard it can be hard to change diet for discus.

Thanks for all the advice!

[aquagal]

Your bioload is low, I don't think that's your problem. Also, you don't seem to be feeding them enough (2 frozen cubes and fasting on the weekends)...has this always been your feeding regime or have you cut down to see if this is your problem? You should probably offer more food than this to your juvenilles (I feed mine 4-6 times per day and they would probably take more if I offered).

You should not worry about a 90% water change as the good bacteria are in your filter, not the water and this should not upset your cycle. Also, plecos do poop alot. I guess it's a balance between the good they do (control the algae) with the negative (poop machines).

I also think nitrates may be your problem. If you don't have them in your tap (I do), it seems very strange to me that you would have them in your tank at 30ppm? Water changes is the best way to lower. You could add more plants, but I have no plants in my tanks and I have no problems w/ nitrates? Do you have bad algae growing within the tank (tank walls, driftwood)?

Sherry

[plecocicho]

This is my opinion:
Short term action:
- cut feeding beefhearth totally and use frozen food instead, frozen chironous larvae are a good start
-this is what i forgot to mention in the prevous post_ buy an uv carifier and install it before the filter to catch the dead bacteria
- get in the tank some fast growing plantzs like hygrophila and such
- after few days do 20 percent water change. Repeat every third day, till the nitrate falls down.
Long term action:
- no beef hearth
- more fast growing plants
- eventually buy another filter

[bs6749]

Okay, first of all I'm assuming that valkyrie66 doesn't want to spend a ton of money to fix this relatively easy problem so I'd disagree with the UV sterilizer completely as well as putting another filter on the tank as there is already enough present.

valkyrie66: You should do a 90% water change IMO, as I initially stated and this won't hurt anything at all. As Aguagal hinted at, the beneficial bacteria are not in the water column for the most part. They are gonig to be in your filter, in your substrate (sand) and on the surfaces of the glass, plants, driftwood, etc. Doing a 90% water change and then carefully adding new water to the tank as to not stir up the sand will greatly help clarify the water.
Stop feeding the turkey heart and start feeding some "cleaner" foods such as the frozen bloodworms that I suggested earlier. As pointed out by Aquagal you SHOULD be doing more feedings. Take time to feed them what they can eat. Feed a little at a time and then a little more when they have eaten all the food in the tank and so on. You are trying to eliminate the things that will turn your water cloudy.

I'm curious as to what kind of pleco is in the tank. If it's a "common" it has no place in that tank IMO. Granted, it might not be too large for the tank now but they can grow to be well over 17" and will need to be moved eventually. The reason that it doesn't belong is because you said it eats the plants. There are many other options for that tank that would be better suited IMO than a common or whatever you currently have. Take a look at ancistrus (bushy nose/BN) plecos. They only get 3-4" long and you could have 2-3 of them in the tank rather than one. They will not harm your plants either! Also look at rubber plecos, bulldog plecos, clown plecos, and gold nugget (awesome little guys) plecos. If you go with the gold nuggets you will want only 2 as they can get a little larger (6-8"). They are plant friendly and nicely colored.

I suggest you get some anacharis and anubias and put them in the tank and keep the lights off of the tank for 10 days. This should greatly help reduce any algae in the tank.

Aquagal: You may not need any live plants in your tank (I don't keep any in my discus tanks at the moment either and have low nitrates) but the addition of them sure can be helpful. They will outcompete the algae for the nutrients provided that the conditions are right.

[aquagal]

Aquagal: You may not need any live plants in your tank (I don't keep any in my discus tanks at the moment either and have low nitrates) but the addition of them sure can be helpful. They will outcompete the algae for the nutrients provided that the conditions are right.

I don't disagree with your statement, I just don't think adding plants is going to help in this situation. Something else is going on here. It's not normal for the water to be cloudy in a tank that's been running for 9 months.

[plecocicho]

This is not algae boom, because the water isn't green, but milky. Water changes won't help because there will still be heterotrophic bacteria, that will blossom in such bioloaded water. Maybe you should take out the pleco and cut feding for a few days. It si no problem. discus are capable of handling a short tie of famina. I would still look for water fleas, if i were you. Feed very little and not many times as it was sugested. Do these and then report after a week if it came to changes, ok.

[New to discus]

This is not algae boom, because the water isn't green, but milky. Water changes won't help because there will still be heterotrophic bacteria, that will blossom in such bioloaded water. Maybe you should take out the pleco and cut feding for a few days. It si no problem. discus are capable of handling a short tie of famina. I would still look for water fleas, if i were you. Feed very little and not many times as it was sugested. Do these and then report after a week if it came to changes, ok.


I disagree. It looks exactly like an algea bloom I had a few months ago. How many hours a day do you have your light on? What kind of wattage do you have?

I did the following which pretty much instantly fixed the cure: for about 3 days I turned the light on for only about 2 hours a day. This kills the algea. If it was an algea bloom it should be much clearer after the 3 days are up.

During that time shop for many more aquarium plants to outcompete the algea. Also add some creatures that live off the algea: I have bamboo shrimp, zebra snails, fresh water clams etc.

After the 3 days do a water change, add the plants and creatures. You may also need to adjust the length of time your light is on. Really depends on the amount of plants and creatures you add.

I figure you might as well try this first as it is a cheap and easy fix if it works. If it doesn't you can always try something else.

[bs6749]

I don't disagree with your statement, I just don't think adding plants is going to help in this situation. Something else is going on here. It's not normal for the water to be cloudy in a tank that's been running for 9 months.


I know you don't disagree with my statement but algae blooms can take some time to occur. I got new lights for my 55 gallon tank and it took about 2.5 months before I realized how bad the algae had gotten. I went with not lights on the tank for about 10 days and then turned them on after that. The result...no more algae. I was running the lights for over 8 hours a day, now I run them for about 4 and have seen no algae since then.


plecocicho: I have to strongly disagree with your statement. If there is an excess of nitrate in the water (30ppm is certainly high enough) then algae can be quite prolific. Doing a large, 90% water change, will get rid of a vast number of those nitrates that the algae need to survive. Adding plants, such as the ones I have already recommended twice now, will soak up the remaining nutrients in low light conditions leaving nothing for the algae which requires high light to grow.

New to discus: It's a low wattage setup as it's a 90 gallon tank with the lights that came with the tank so excess lighting isn't much of an issue, unless it is in direct sunlight.

[White Worm]

Take the plants out, do a large water change (80%)and after a couple days I'll bet the greenish water cloud goes away. That will mean that you just need alot more plants and a balanced sytem. That would go along with the advice bs and new are giving you. It has to do with the limited number of plants and the type of plants. Try it, its the cheapest experiment.

[valkyrie66]

Thank you, ALL OF YOU, for the great debate! I have gotten a lot of good advice and much to think about - just what I had hoped for.

You should do a 90% water change..... Stop feeding the turkey heart ...... you SHOULD be doing more feedings..... I'm curious as to what kind of pleco is in the tank. .....Take a look at ancistrus (bushy nose/BN) plecos. They only get 3-4" long and you could have 2-3 of them in the tank rather than one. They will not harm your plants either! .....I suggest you get some anacharis and anubias and put them in the tank and keep the lights off of the tank for 10 days....

bs6749: Thank you very much for all the sound advice. The plec I have is actually a male lutino bristlenose/or bushy nose, right now he is 12 cm (so about 4.75 inches) and he is probably fully grown, so I think he can stay then. Although, he IS actually a bit of a plant menace... he has sucked the life out of both a java fern and 3 anubias nana before. The only thing still standing is the onion plant - should I just get another one of those? I thought nobody liked to eat java ferns but he polished it. Am I not feeding him enough either? I give him a pellet 2/week.

Here is what I have done since yesterday....
I called the store where I got the discus, he said to put in 'easy-life fluid filter medium' (http://www.easylife.nl/english/index.html?id=11)and wait over night. I did, and actually, the tank looked about 50% better this morning. So I did an 80% water change (could not do 90%, the discus started freaking out, jumping and dashing about...), replaced the filter wool I had put in yesterday morning (it might have been ok for one more day - but it had caught a lot of gunk so I put in a new one). Then I dosed again with the easy-life and turned off the lights. After this is resolved I will set the timer for 5 hours per day instead of 10 (the tank does not get any sunlight). I plan to go and get more low-light fast growing plants for the tank as well (as long as I find ones the pleco won't ruin - any recommendations?), and do 25% water changes 3 times per week, plus daily pleco poop vacs. I will start easing them off the turkey heart for something cleaner like bloodworms. I will also feed them more as soon as they learn to accept the new food type - hopefully it won't be too hard to switch their diet.

More thoughts on this are very welcome!

[bs6749]

I'll admit, I know little about the different species of plecos so maybe there is another kind of bushynose pleco than what I was recommending to you. The ancistrus BN plecos shouldn't harm the plants in any way. Mine never have, they love eating the algae off of the plant leaves, though I've never had any damage to my plants as a result.

I'd think that most anubias would suit the tank well as you could tie them to the existing driftwood that you already have, they will do well in low light, and the pleco SHOULDN'T harm them as they are rather thick-leaved. The downside to anubias is that they are slow growers. Also notice that plants such as the onion plant that you already have can't relly be harmed by the pleco because the leaves are narrow...look for more plants like this if you intend to keep the pleco.

Here is a link that I find very helpful at times when I need to know about plants: http://www.plantgeek.net/plantguide.php You may be able to find something that you like from all of the information given. It's nice because generally there is a picture given for each plant and the light/nutrient requirements are given as well.

I'm glad to hear that conditions are improving in the tank. Keep us posted!

[happygirl65]

You might try giving the plec some cucumber or zucchini in a veggie clip or something, that way he has something fresh and green in his diet. This helps some plecos stay off of plants. :)
Also narrow leaved plants like vals can be grown in lower light and make a really nice backdrop. :)

[BSW]

Sounds like your working it out O.K., I'm glad.
One thing I would do, since your using tap water, is check it if you haven't already. Sometimes it can be the culprit, heavy phosphates, nitrates, high iron, no tellin', I've heard of all kinda of things in tap water, and it varies alot from area to area, and treatment plant to treatment plant, even season to season. You can even get a free water report from your city water board, if ya want. And Wisteria is a great hardy floating plant, that will really clean up lots of stuff, you don't even need a substrate, if you want a bare bottom tank.
Hope it works out well for you -
BSW

[New to discus]

I'm with you. I should note that I did not have the option to turn off the lights completely for any extended period of time because I had a heavily planted tank. So instead I cut the light drmatically as I indicated before.

My problem was that I was running the lights for about 14 hours. They are now on for 10. I agree that adding more plants will outcompete. If there is currently just an onion plant present because your fish eat all other plants I would get a bunch of them (maybe 10 or so) and plant out the back. I think you can get different plants however but be sure that you feed your pleco. If you don't feed your pleco he will be forced to eat your plants. I have a pleco right now in a heavily planted tank and he leaves my plants alone. I feed algea wavers daily.


I know you don't disagree with my statement but algae blooms can take some time to occur. I got new lights for my 55 gallon tank and it took about 2.5 months before I realized how bad the algae had gotten. I went with not lights on the tank for about 10 days and then turned them on after that. The result...no more algae. I was running the lights for over 8 hours a day, now I run them for about 4 and have seen no algae since then.


plecocicho: I have to strongly disagree with your statement. If there is an excess of nitrate in the water (30ppm is certainly high enough) then algae can be quite prolific. Doing a large, 90% water change, will get rid of a vast number of those nitrates that the algae need to survive. Adding plants, such as the ones I have already recommended twice now, will soak up the remaining nutrients in low light conditions leaving nothing for the algae which requires high light to grow.

New to discus: It's a low wattage setup as it's a 90 gallon tank with the lights that came with the tank so excess lighting isn't much of an issue, unless it is in direct sunlight.

[New to discus]

You might try giving the plec some cucumber or zucchini in a veggie clip or something, that way he has something fresh and green in his diet. This helps some plecos stay off of plants. :)
Also narrow leaved plants like vals can be grown in lower light and make a really nice backdrop. :)

I agree on the food choices for the pleco. I would increase pellets as well.

With respect to vals... they do best in harder water so not technically ideal for a discus set-up. Anumias is great Hygrophillia, any species of swords, java fern, crypts, Pogostemon helferi, etc. This site is great http://www.tropica.com/plant_print.asp

[valkyrie66]

Sounds like your working it out O.K., I'm glad.
One thing I would do, since your using tap water, is check it if you haven't already.Hope it works out well for you -BSW
Thank you very much!!! And yes, I have tested my tapwater and it is fine. Very soft, no nitrates, pH7,5.... and it has been voted the best tasting water in Sweden... not bad for the city. :)

Now 4 days of intensive care... easy-life additions, 3 days with the lights off, and the addition of 5 Limnophila Sessiliflora plants - the tank looks FANTASTIC!!! :D The water is crystal clear, and the fish are happy!

Thanks you all for the help!

[Tropical Haven]

Your tank looks a lot better congrats on that, just try to do at least a 30 to 40 percent water change when you do them. Make sure your water parameters of the water that you are putting into your tank is the same as the water that is in your tank. (Temp, PH, ect.)