Advice needed !

[DavidH]

To make a short story long, hopefully not too long! I have been keeping discus for many years and breeding.
I transfered 9 4 to 5 inch discus into a used 130 gal tank. Had them in a 55 for months all healthy.
Had my older daughter clean the 130 (my mistake, didn't sterilize it), and probably brought some of the nasties with it.
Parameters of tank are fine. Within a week they all started to shimmy and flash.
Went thru a few different treatments without much luck.
Finally with enough pp, improvement, knocked out my bio but recovered quickly. After about 5 to 6 days shimmy and flashing started again.
So seems like if I repeated pp a few times it might solve the problem but I will definately lose my bio and I'm not home enough to do more than one 50% water change per day.
All fish are looking and eating great. I just hate to fix the problem and then have to fight the cycling process again with 9 larger discus.

Any ideas welcome, Thx in advance Dave.

[kaceyo]

You can take the filter offline or remove the media for the time it takes to do the treatment as long as you don't leave it submerged in stagnent water.

Kacey

[Graham]

Kacey that would be like storing the ''whatevers'' in the filter while the fish got cleaned up, only to introduce the ''whatever'' again.

David was this tank completely dry when you got it or did it still have a small amount of water in it. Not many parasites, that I can think of, can stand being dried:confused:.

Anyway...NH3 AND NO2 are easy to look after, so I wouldn't be too worried about the bio. I think that I would try a couple of different shot gun meds as the PP is knocking the ''whatever '' back but not out...

Quick Cure which is formalin and malachite green, or maybe even a copper based chem like Aquari-sol. These will stay in the water longer than the PP

If you had a microscope then maybe we could ID the ''whatever'' and be more direct

[brewmaster15]

David,
You mentioned you tried a bunch of things? what have you tried? Did you try a prazi treatment? I don't know where whatever it is you have came from but if you try prazi and it works at all...odds are you are dealing with flukes. Prazi won't hurt the bio.

If it doesn't work... I would do as Graham suggest with the FMG...

Look closely at the fish.. are the fins and eyes clear?

-al

[kaceyo]

Graham,
I've found that quite often, ridding the fishes body of the offending "whatevers" is enough to rid them of the problem. It's not the most efficient way, but it does work, especially if you leave the filter media in for the first treatment, then remove itfor any subsequent treatments.

Kacey

[Graham]

Kacy, That may work for some parasites but it also maybe a gamble as some can cyst up or survive for weeks without a host, especially if they are cooled off...just a gamble.

In this case an empty tank that had been cleaned to some degree infected the new residents, with in a week.

Al, the shimmying and flashing just came on too quick, a week; for this to be a major out break of flukes ...a scope would figure it out

[brewmaster15]

Graham,



Al, the shimmying and flashing just came on too quick, a week; for this to be a major out break of flukes ...a scope would figure it out
I absolutely agree the scope would...but since prazi is pretty fluke and tapeworm specific and is biofilter safe...it would tell alot if it relieved the symptoms.
I also agree that its quick for an outbreak of flukes which is why I asked about what treatments were tried and if other symptoms were there ;) but since I'm not there to see what the fish were like before the flashing started and since it was noticed...I think I'd still rule it out.:)

I'm also interested in how much Pp and how often those couple of pp treatments were.

takecare,
-al

[DavidH]

Thx for all the feedback guys.
Yes Graham the tank still had a tiny amout of water and stones when I got it.
I really didn't tell her how to clean it and was in a rush to set it up!!!!

1. I said 1 one to weeks before sysptoms ! couldve' been a little longer.
2. Had the fish since last year with no problems, great fish.
3. Have use prazipro per Al's directions in a thread, 21 days.
4. UsedQuickcure three seprate treatments, no relieve at all.
5. Used 2ppm pp no good, didn't lose bio
6. Used 4ppm pp good for about 5 days, lost bio but bouced back quickly.
7. Same symptoms not as bad.
8. Fish are still in great condition and eat anything.
9. One fish will shake sometime violently and shimmy or flash and then settle down and fight like normal discus.
10 All these treatments were spaced over time so as not to clash.

Dave

[brewmaster15]

Dave,
Sounds like you hit them with everything but the kitchen sink.:)
To survive what you tried, I'd have to guess protozoans came in with that water... ...maybe costia or velvet.. the timing is right at least... again just a guess....can you look real close at the fins and eyes...do they look at all cloudy?

-al

[DavidH]

Hey Al, no they look normal, beautiful in fact.
I guess I'll ride it out for a while and see what happens.
Seems like its copper or do a pp every 5 days for three weeks ????
I am doing a fishless cycle on a 55 right now got to nitrites but no nitrates yet.
I was thinking of a dip and then into the new tank, what do you think would "what ever it is" come with them?

Thx Dave

[Graham]

Hmmm scratching head:confused: OK now we know where the problem came from.....Since you've tried QC with no effect and PP at two different ppm and all it did was knock it back, I'm not sure what to tell you to try.

Both Costia and Oodinium would have the fish producing excess mucus and you say they're clean looking :bandana: and costia can kill quick....are the fish breathing fast?

Know anyone at all with a scope including a Vet?

G

[DavidH]

Hey Graham, breathing normal.
No scope or access to one, but think about it! Haven't I already hit them with everything I can?
Thx for you time, I'm at a loss. About a $1000 worth of fish and no idea what to do next!
Do you think a dip in a stronger pp solution and a different tank would help?
After the higher dose of pp there were no symtoms for a least 5 days.
Dave

[Graham]

At this point I'm not sure if I would do anything. You discribe a healthy fish, other than this flashing....are they actually rubbing against anything when they flash?

[brewmaster15]

I'm at a loss also.:( Coppers about the only thing you haven't tried and its not something I would recommend lightly.:( Especially not with a tank full of expensive fish.

The pp at the higher dose worked for a while on what ever it was....thats an interesting fact...maybe give these fish some time to rest and see how they do....'

If it gets bad again..I would possibly try a salt dip to a clean tank......it may be necessary to do this a few times to get rid of whatever is the irritant.

Where do you live David,
maybe we can find someone near you with a scope.

-al

[DavidH]

Graham yes they will somtimes just shake and shimmy, other times they will rub against heater wires or airline tubing. I thought I could narrow it down to just gills but they will rub various parts of their bodies.

Dave

[DavidH]

Al, I live in Fayetteville NC, just no discus keepers around here that I know of.
I called a couple of local vets but they have no idea and didn't offer any help.
The symptoms have definately improved but I wonder if this is just me knocking back on the numbers of the nasties. Waiting to see if things worsen again.
I was just getting ready to add some new ones to the cycling tank, guess I'll have to wait and solve this first, bummer!!!!
Dave

PS: Last couple of days I've noticed a little pre-mating behavior in the middle of all this!

[brewmaster15]

David,
A while back you started a thread on North Carolina....

http://www.forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?t=22204

Pat in NC is a scientist at chapel hill.. Haven't seen him on the forums in the last year but he's a great guy...maybe he can help. Maybe drop him an email thru the forum.

Walters also out of NC and may know someone with a scope so maybe Pm him also.

hth,
al

[DavidH]

You're right Al, I remember talking with Pat, I'll try to look him up.

Thx again Dave