Sick Discus -- dark and scratched

[Catch and Release]

Does anyone have any idea what could be wrong with this sick discus? He's in a tank with 8 other discus that are active and healthy. The water parameters are all in good order: ammonia 0ppm, nitrite 0ppm and nitrate ~5ppm. The temperature is around 85F. I have added 1 TBSP / 10gal of both regular salt and epsom salt.

I just finished an 8 day treatment of quickcure a few days ago (for an external parasite), dosing 1 drop / gallon after a 30-50% water change and he was looking much better, not completely dark like he is now, good colouration but with dark stripes (that aren't his norm either). He was starting to get his appetite back during the quickcure treatment and was jostling with other discus, but then a couple days ago he reverted back to his old form. I've been doing 50%+ water changes daily and he hasn't shown much improvement.

Should I start the quick cure up again? Try something else? Wait?

Any help or suggestions would be much appreciated. Thanks.

Here's a pic: http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o282/skbtaylor/sickdiscus.jpg

**Edit: I just noticed that he's still flashing/scraping off the airline tube, the other discus don't seem to be doing it**

*** The meds I currently have available are quickcure, prazi pro, tetracycline, clout and metro ***

[ShinShin]

Not a favorite chemical concoction of mine, Clout would however knock out any extoparasites your fish has.

How long did you do the formalin/malachite green treatment? Maybe you ought to continue that awhile longer. Epson salts is of no value here, and reg. salt is next to worthless here as well.

Mat

[Catch and Release]

Not a favorite chemical concoction of mine, Clout would however knock out any extoparasites your fish has.

How long did you do the formalin/malachite green treatment? Maybe you ought to continue that awhile longer. Epson salts is of no value here, and reg. salt is next to worthless here as well.

Mat

I did the quick cure originally for 8 days and I just re-dosed it tonight at 1 drop/gallon. He was originally down in the bottom corner this morning/afternoon and now he's up in the top corner, so hopefully that is a positive sign.

Do you have any ideas what this is? Is it still some sort of external parasite?

[ShinShin]

It is hard to say. So many diseases discus acquire start with the fish turning dark as a typical symptom. With it responding to the formalin/malachite green treatment, my initial guess would be some sort of protozoan attack. Maybe it picked up a secondary bacterial infetion.

Mat

[airbus123]

would dosing pp help?

[ShinShin]

Yes, for ectoparasites, but I never have been a PP fan.

Mat

[Catch and Release]

He was looking much better this morning -- the scrapes haven't healed yet, but his colour has brightened up significantly.

Any ideas how long I should keep up with this quickcure treatment? Considering the last one went 8 days and it didn't seem to be enough (or he came down with something else afterwards?), it would appear as though I need to change something up.

[ShinShin]

Sorry, I lost this one. How is the fish now?

Mat

[Catch and Release]

Sorry, I lost this one. How is the fish now?

Mat

Thanks for checking back.

The poor guy seems to be back at square one today. I was away for the weekend and before I left I did several large water changes and dosed quickcure. While I was away I was told he wasn't dark and was quite colourful, but with dark stripes (which isn't normal for him).

Since I've been back, I hadn't dosed anything for the last 3 days while doing large (60-70%) daily water changes, but today when I came home from work he was dark again and hanging out in the corners at somewhat of an angle.

I'm at a loss because quickcure seems to improve his spirits, but never seems to cure anything. I have ran out of quickcure and I'm thinking maybe Prazi Pro because it seems to be some sort of ailment that is causing him to scratch and flash.

Any ideas?

[ShinShin]

I have in the past resorted to Clout for seemingly incurable exctoparasites with success. Fluke Tabs, although not very popular with some, also has come through for me. I have used them on 3 week old fry full strength witout any ill effects.

If it were me, at this point, I'd soak the fish in a 5 gal bucket with 5 tbs. of salt and air for 20 minutes. Then immediately put it back in the tank with the Clout or Fluke tabs already dissplved in the tank. I would follow the package directions exactly, but before dosing the 2nd and 3rd time, do the 20 minute salt bath, dosing the tank while the fish is in the bucket.

Mat

[Catch and Release]

I have in the past resorted to Clout for seemingly incurable exctoparasites with success. Fluke Tabs, although not very popular with some, also has come through for me. I have used them on 3 week old fry full strength witout any ill effects.

If it were me, at this point, I'd soak the fish in a 5 gal bucket with 5 tbs. of salt and air for 20 minutes. Then immediately put it back in the tank with the Clout or Fluke tabs already dissplved in the tank. I would follow the package directions exactly, but before dosing the 2nd and 3rd time, do the 20 minute salt bath, dsing the tank while the fish is in the bucket.

Mat

I tried treating with prazipro before I read this because I've read that it is a relatively mild medication and I figured it couldn't hurt much. A day later and no improvement with the sick discus, so I am going to do a large WC and put in some carbon to filter out the remaining meds.

After I get the prazipro out of the tank, I'll try your salt/clout method.

Thanks for the help, much appreciated.

[Surferdave]

Wow, sounds like you're throwing in a lot of meds. I'd suggest moving the fish to a quarantine or hospital tank. When one of my fish couldn't seem to kick a bacterial infection, I moved him to a seperate tank where it's easier and "cheaper" with meds to treat. Also you don't put your other fish under the stress of constantly medicating the tank etc. I was able to get the temp to 88-90 degrees, increase oxygen with a seperate air pump and medicate without worrying about the reprecussions on my other fish, along with plants, shrimp and cories. Good luck!

Dave

[tdr1919]

If you only have the one sick fish I would try to setup a 10 gal with a heater and sponge filter so you are not hammering your other fish with all these meds, you will end up with a bunch of sick fish.
Depending on how old your quick cure is, this can make it less affective. I dose my (infected - gill scratchers) with 37% formalin, one shot, 12 hrs later the med has evaporated, and it should have killed any flukes, but as Mat stated, there could be a secondary infection, which the formalin will just irrate things more. Do yourself a big favor, get a med tank, saves time, money and fish. IMO

Tom

[Catch and Release]

Thanks for the responses.

My main concern is that if in fact this is a parasite (which everything seems to point to), the other fish could be and probably are affected even if they aren't looking weak -- I've noticed some scratches on other fish recently and even if they are looking healthy, they may not be. I want to ensure that this problem gets nipped in the butt rather than possibly curing one fish and having the others get sick later and/or reinfect the other.

I still haven't dosed any clout and I'm getting ready to do another large WC to completely remove the PraziPro.

On a side note, I believe my quickcure was probably 1-1.5 years old, could it have been bad? The quickcure seemed to help significantly, but seemed as though it couldn't finish off the job.

Thoughts?

[Graham]

Unless Quick Cure has been expoused to high temp or very cold ones it will be fine. Being that it's a chemical and not an antibiotic, it doesn't ''get old''

If the formalin had gone cloudy or has a white precipitate then it's formed Paraformaldehyde and it is toxic to fish and should be deposed of

[ShinShin]

I'm sorry. I just assumed that the discus would be put into its own tank after the salt dip for the Clout treatments. I am not sure I would use Clout unneccessarily on the whole tank.

As Graham mentioned, dispose of any formalin thatis cloudy or has white percipitant on the bottom of the container. This is difficult to see in the QuickCure bottles because they are dark to protect it from the light. If you are unsure if it is good or bad, if it got to 40F toss it.

Mat

[Catch and Release]

I'm sorry. I just assumed that the discus would be put into its own tank after the salt dip for the Clout treatments. I am not sure I would use Clout unneccessarily on the whole tank.

As Graham mentioned, dispose of any formalin thatis cloudy or has white percipitant on the bottom of the container. This is difficult to see in the QuickCure bottles because they are dark to protect it from the light. If you are unsure if it is good or bad, if it got to 40F toss it.

Mat

Unfortunately a separate tank is not possible at this time, so I have held off on the clout for the time being. I've tried a formalin treatment @ 2 drops / gallon with 50% water change afterwards on alternating days, but he hasn't really shown any improvement. He still hides quite a bit, but does come out to say 'hi' while I'm doing water changes and such. He is showing some interest in food (grazing the tank floor and picking at things, eating food from the feeding cone before spitting it out), but I haven't seen much if any poo come out of him either.

I'm starting to wonder if it's possibly HITH. Does HITH cause a fish to scratch their heads on airline tubing, power cords, etc? Because he's still doing that as of today, but he also seems to be developing what appears to be a hole on his forehead.

I have attached a couple photos, maybe they can help. Any ideas?

[ShinShin]

After seeing the pics, formalin is not going to help this poor fish. He look ridden with internal parasites. If it were me and no extra tank, I'd just end its misery. You really ought to have an extra tank around.

Mat

[Catch and Release]

After seeing the pics, formalin is not going to help this poor fish. He look ridden with internal parasites. If it were me and no extra tank, I'd just end its misery. You really ought to have an extra tank around.

Mat

He has spurts of looking like that and spurts where he looks almost back to normal -- he goes in and out of the dark colouration. I can't give up on him.... if I can get him into his own tank, what would I need to do? What meds do I need?

Thanks for your help.

[ShinShin]

Having a microscope, I'd check a fresh fecal sample. I am guessing by looking at your fish that I'd see flagellate protozoans and perhaps some capillaria. I'd use Metro for the protozoans and levamisole for the nematodes. I do not know if the two can be used together or not. I'd ask a vet. I'd treat with levamisole first. One treatment, then do a 50% water change in 2 days and treat with metro. The levamisole needs to be followed up in 2 weeks with a second dose.

You could also run a filter with carbon in it for 8 hrs. before treating with metro. I would run fresh carbon after the metro as well. We need to remove antibiotics from the water before we dump it down the drain. It's a part of being eco responsible.

Mat

[Catch and Release]

Having a microscope, I'd check a fresh fecal sample. I am guessing by looking at your fish that I'd see flagellate protozoans and perhaps some capillaria. I'd use Metro for the protozoans and levamisole for the nematodes. I do not know if the two can be used together or not. I'd ask a vet. I'd treat with levamisole first. One treatment, then do a 50% water change in 2 days and treat with metro. The levamisole needs to be followed up in 2 weeks with a second dose.

You could also run a filter with carbon in it for 8 hrs. before treating with metro. I would run fresh carbon after the metro as well. We need to remove antibiotics from the water before we dump it down the drain. It's a part of being eco responsible.

Mat

I don't have any levamisole or have any idea where to buy it. I tried searching around for it with little luck. I was planning on placing an order at jehmco.com tomorrow, do you know if they have any suitable replacement?

He seems to spit out the majority of the food he tries to eat, so I would guess I need a medication that can be absorbed.

Good call on the carbon before water changes, I have lots of that in reserve.

Thanks for the help.