My first discus! - not eating

[New to discus]

I need some help.I have been keeping fish for 15 years and 6 days ago I obtained my first discus.

58 gallon
5 discus, 3 inches big.
Temp 31 degrees,
nitrite 0,
nitrate 0,
ammonia 0.
15% WC every other day.
PH 6.8

The tank has been cycled for 6 months, fully planted, substrate, wood. Some cory's and cardinal tetra's etc.

The tank is suspended from the ceiling, is visible from both sides and hangs in our office. I previously posted about this tank and the response was that the discus could handle it.

To date the discus have not eaten much/at all. Over the last few days some of them have started picking at food but they seem to be spitting it out. They are swimming out in the open about 50% of the time, the other 50% they stay close to the wood and plants. They have good color (although one of them is a little paler then when I first got him/her). Their fins are erect most of the time. The fish seem to bicker amongst themselves without actually beating up on each other. The fish are a bit thin, slightly sunken stomach's. They are beathing a bit faster than I think they should be but I think that may be because I have the temp at 32 (less oxygen in hotter water). One of them had a dark brown poop, some of the others have had white stringy pooh. The fish have basically looked this way since I bought them.

A few days after I got them an airconditioning issue at our office dropped the temp from 30 to 25 overnight, I have this fixed now but got an ick outbreak 4 days as a result. The ick is pretty much gone today (only one white spot left) partly because I raised the temp to 32.

I have noticed the fish shuddering every now and then (lasts only a few seconds). One of the fish (subordinate) has turned a little paler and seems to every now and then tip over a bit.

Right now I am on the third day or medicating with Metro and Medic (I think they may have internal parasites of some sort).

My questions:

1. Are these discus normal/sick?
2. Why are they not eating?
3. Are they still acclimitizing?
4. How long can they go without food?
5. Medication ok?

[amyandlars]

The white stringy poo is not normal for discus, the dark red is fine. Is it stringy or slimey, b/c stringy means worms, and slimy means I think a bacterial infection. The disease and medication forum is excellent here and covers that that exact topic in a sticky.

You didn't say how big your discus are, if they are older, chances are good for them. If they are smaller babies, I would be worried about stunting with a week of no food.

Also where and how did you acquire your discus?

[New to discus]

The white stringy poo is not normal for discus, the dark red is fine. Is it stringy or slimey, b/c stringy means worms, and slimy means I think a bacterial infection. The disease and medication forum is excellent here and covers that that exact topic in a sticky.

You didn't say how big your discus are, if they are older, chances are good for them. If they are smaller babies, I would be worried about stunting with a week of no food.

Also where and how did you acquire your discus?

They are 3 inches (babies). Got them from the LFS (not ideal I know).

If it helps, their eyes are clear, red, but a tad big (stunting?). Their slimecoat is good. I recently found out the supplier kept them at a PH of 7.4 (mine is 6.8). I have tried to feed them everything from signature series, blood worms, spirulina, etc. I have tried garlic guard and entice. Nothing works. They perk up when I put food in the tank and seem to get excited. They just don't close the deal.

[brewmaster15]

Hi,
Congrats on your first discus!:) Aside from any health issues that these fish may have picked up while at the LFS Theres going to be some acclimation / settling time here with them.. Odds are they were raised in a large group , bare bottom tank... They may or may not have seen too many people... You've set them up in a planted tank thats open on all ends if I understand the concept right from the picture.... and its in the middle of the room? Next you have some pretty active tetras as well...The whole effect is probably a little overwhelmingto the discus... I'd guess in time they will settle in and get used to it....but the not eating and off colored feces is worrisome...

Can you post some pictures of these fish?

-al

[New to discus]

Hi,
Congrats on your first discus!:) Aside from any health issues that these fish may have picked up while at the LFS Theres going to be some acclimation / settling time here with them.. Odds are they were raised in a large group , bare bottom tank... They may or may not have seen too many people... You've set them up in a planted tank thats open on all ends if I understand the concept right from the picture.... and its in the middle of the room? Next you have some pretty active tetras as well...The whole effect is probably a little overwhelmingto the discus... I'd guess in time they will settle in and get used to it....but the not eating and off colored feces is worrisome...

Can you post some pictures of these fish?

-al

I have tried to post pics before but they are too big and won't load (I'm not good with computers). I can e-mail some to you though. They are pigeon and today they are showing some stress bars appearing. They some are also at a slight angle with their head downwards.

[aquagal]

to post pics, go to a web site like photobucket.com, upload your photos to that site and then copy the link into your message.

[White Worm]

An easy way to shrink your photos is to use the microsoft paint program that comes on most computers. Do the ..image..sketch and skew.. change both to 50% and save it. You may have to do it 2 times to shrink it down to the appropriate size.

[New to discus]

An easy way to shrink your photos is to use the microsoft paint program that comes on most computers. Do the ..image..sketch and skew.. change both to 50% and save it. You may have to do it 2 times to shrink it down to the appropriate size.

I will post some pics as soon as I get home from work tonight. I took some pictures just now. Thanks guys!

[New to discus]

to post pics, go to a web site like photobucket.com, upload your photos to that site and then copy the link into your message.


Here are some pics.

http://s301.photobucket.com/albums/nn67/cmaurik/

So, the fish have not eaten for a solid week. They definately looked better when I first got them. In one of the pictures you can also see that some of them have their head down a bit. They have declined in the way they look and act since I first posted this thread.

[brewmaster15]

HI,
I think alot of your issues here stem from getting used to the tank set up...However, the fish you posted has several health issues...Its definetly got a stunted look to it...large eyes and Beaky so its likely its never been a stellar performer in the first place...but It looks like its stomach is very narrow and its not a very stout specimen. looks thin...I'm guessing that it hasn't been eating for alot longer than the one week you had it.... I'm also concerned by the way its fins are held to its sides....are any other fish "clamped" like this? do their fins look whitish or opaque? How about the sides of their bodies where the fins are resting...do you see any excess slime coat?

Pics of the rest of the discus would also help.

-al

[New to discus]

HI,
I think alot of your issues here stem from getting used to the tank set up...However, the fish you posted has several health issues...Its definetly got a stunted look to it...large eyes and Beaky so its likely its never been a stellar performer in the first place...but It looks like its stomach is very narrow and its not a very stout specimen. looks thin...I'm guessing that it hasn't been eating for alot longer than the one week you had it.... I'm also concerned by the way its fins are held to its sides....are any other fish "clamped" like this? do their fins look whitish or opaque? How about the sides of their bodies where the fins are resting...do you see any excess slime coat?

Pics of the rest of the discus would also help.

-al


Those pictures are actually of the worst two discuss. The other 3 look a bit better but pretty much the same. I figured it would be most helpful to see the worst two discuss because from observing the fish it looks like those two are just a bit more advanced than the other 3 but essentially have the same thing wrong with them. Over the last 24 hours those 2 have been tipping over to their side a lot more (almost completely on their side, but then right themselves) and when the other 3 pick on them they are not moving or resisting like they did before. The fin clamping has been happening more progressively over the last several days (but interestingly only one fin at a time). There is no excess slime coat. They have definately lost weight since I got them. They did not look this skinny when I got them but their stomachs were sunken when I got them. The fins are a little bit opaque but the actual spines in the fin are black.

Is there any way for me to bring these fish back from the brink? Is it better to just get rid of all of these and buy good stock? If that is the way to go where would I buy them from? Do you sell any? Is my tank just too stressful or would good adult stock work?

[brewmaster15]

HI,
I'm sorry about these discus...but what you need to do is decide what you want in a tank of discus... These fish will probably never be show fish if thats what you wanted for your display tank....If thats the case..then I'd try any of our sponsors...
We have several in canada... April's in Vancouver... http://www.petsbeautiful.com/

and Bob Garside at http://www.uppercanadadiscus.com/index.html

is another good option to try. Adults usually do better in planted tanks IME,.



Can these fish be saved healthwise ..probably... It sounds like you may have introduced parasites or a bacteria to your tank.....Its hard to tell which... possibly both are occurring now.

I'd probably try Formalin+malachite green...but becareful ..it can stain silicon... not sure what it will do to your tanks...and the tetras may not take it well....if you are worried about that staining... just formalin treatments can be tried... follow that up with antibiotics like furan 2 and theres a good chance you can turn them around.

Unfortunately the Basic problem here is what happens when a quarantine isn't done....and I don't say this to lecture....but just because I hope others read this and can learn as well...

One thing I would also do go back to the LFS you got them from...I really think these fish were in decline before you got them... a week without eating doesn't account for what the pictures show ...:(

hth,
al

[New to discus]

Thank you so much for all your help. Lots to learn.

I don't necessarily need show quality discus, so I will start medicating as you suggest. However, I don't want these fish to suffer so if they don't pick up soon I will need to reassess. If I don't end up sticking with this batch for one reason or another, how would you recommend I deal with any parasites or bacteria that may be remaining? The rest of my fish look great like ususual. I also have some bamboo shrimp and they are doing great. Should I just leave the tank for a month and if all is well I can try some of April's stock? Would 5 inch fish be old enough to deal with the stresslevel in my tank?
Would I still quarantine the discus if I got them from someone like April?




HI,
I'm sorry about these discus...but what you need to do is decide what you want in a tank of discus... These fish will probably never be show fish if thats what you wanted for your display tank....If thats the case..then I'd try any of our sponsors...
We have several in canada... April's in Vancouver... http://www.petsbeautiful.com/

and Bob Garside at http://www.uppercanadadiscus.com/index.html

is another good option to try. Adults usually do better in planted tanks IME,.

Can these fish be saved healthwise ..probably... It sounds like you may have introduced parasites or a bacteria to your tank.....Its hard to tell which... possibly both are occurring now.

I'd probably try Formalin+malachite green...but becareful ..it can stain silicon... not sure what it will do to your tanks...and the tetras may not take it well....if you are worried about that staining... just formalin treatments can be tried... follow that up with antibiotics like furan 2 and theres a good chance you can turn them around.

Unfortunately the Basic problem here is what happens when a quarantine isn't done....and I don't say this to lecture....but just because I hope others read this and can learn as well...

One thing I would also do go back to the LFS you got them from...I really think these fish were in decline before you got them... a week without eating doesn't account for what the pictures show ...:(

hth,
al

[brewmaster15]

Hi,
If you have bamboo shrimp or other inverts....you'll need to remove them while treating......most antiparasitic meds will kill inverts like shrimp..... Formalin products should not be used onthem.:(

The problem is if you have introduced something... it needs to be dealt with so I would in this case use th existing fish as test fish...try and get them healthy ...I would not add any new fish until this group have started eating and behaving as normal.

On the Quarantine... it doesn't matter who you get fish from..... you should always QT them...Some do so for a few weeks...I like 6 weeks before I add them to my existing stock. Even plants can bring pathogens in. Its far easier to deal with any issues in QT tank than in a beautiful display tank such as yours.

hth,
al

[New to discus]

Hi,
If you have bamboo shrimp or other inverts....you'll need to remove them while treating......most antiparasitic meds will kill inverts like shrimp..... Formalin products should not be used onthem.:(

The problem is if you have introduced something... it needs to be dealt with so I would in this case use th existing fish as test fish...try and get them healthy ...I would not add any new fish until this group have started eating and behaving as normal.

On the Quarantine... it doesn't matter who you get fish from..... you should always QT them...Some do so for a few weeks...I like 6 weeks before I add them to my existing stock. Even plants can bring pathogens in. Its far easier to deal with any issues in QT tank than in a beautiful display tank such as yours.

hth,
al

I just spoke with April on the phone. She has some 3.5 or 4 inch fish right now. She has had them for about a month, they are eating well, up at the front of the glass, and in a busy area with customers coming in and out. Keeping them in a BB. She suggest I get rid of the current fish (they are getting worse and worse every hour that passes), sterilize the tank with potassium promagnate and hrydrogen peroxide, then introduce stock into the tank. Your thoughts?
I don't have a QT tank big enough to hold 5 discus (just have a 10 liter hospital tank for individual treatment).

[aquagal]

I basically did the same thing. I got rid of all my fish, bleached my tank and introduced six junvenilles from the same breeder. That was 7 months ago and they are doing great.

Good luck!

Sherry

[judy]

If I were you, I would contact the LFS that sold you these fish and insist you be allowed to return them. Those fish are very clearly badly stunted and had major issues before you bought them. Take them back before they die on you. I agree wholeheartedly with April.

[New to discus]

Well... I have decided the following... I work on the aquarium together with a friend of mine. My friend has taken the discus and will try to revive them. Its not something I want to do in the showtank. I will let the aquarium breathe for 4 weeks to 6 weeks and check to make sure there is no illness in the tank. In the meantime I am going to be dealing with April to get together some good stock so I can start fresh. At the same time we are learning with the crappy batch. Thanks so much. If anyone has some nice adult discus they know about that would do well in my tank let me know.