"Discus Genetics and Breeding Info and Discussion"

[novice breeder]

Hi Discus Lovers,
I am starting a thread on "Discus Genetics and Breeding Info ." My aim is to learn and channel what breeding techniques creates these amazing beauties. I will also like to hear from both sides i.e novices to the experts from their trials, failures and success. I am a novice breeder with little experience on the genetics of discus. However i have raised other types of ornamental fishes and using my breeding techniques, i have adopted them to breeding discus. Some of the ideas and techniques mentioned here are what i have gathered from articles as well as experience, both from myself and breeders (not in the discus realm), if there are any inaccurate information i humbly apologize.

There are 2 main types of breeding.
-Inbreeding and
-Crossbreeding.
These also have several sub divisions within the main classification.

Inbreeding refers to (“blood-related”) breeding where individuals are closer related than the average population.
Inbreeding is often used when a new breed or strain is created or one of the individuals has perished and one wants to continue the line as it is not available externally. However it has both inherent advantages and disadvantages. This is where one must be vigilant in following proper breeding techniques since recessive genes can become dominant causing more damage than intended. This type of breeding has been used extensively in agriculture i.e. crops and livestock. Inbreeding seldomly occurs in nature but due to man's influence we have selectively breed related individuals for our own fancy and purpose. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

There are different methods of "Ïnbreeding" : parent -sibling, sibling - sibling, cousins - cousins, uncle/ aunt - niece/nephew, and grand parents- grandchildren etc . The list goes on. The main purpose for doing this is to align the scrambled genetic material and channel it into a new breed as well as to create a cloning method where predictable genetics prevail. Hence "back-breeding" (parent to offspring) is performed to ensure a greater amount of one's genetic material is achieved in future generation.
THE GOLDEN RULE I FOLLOW IS THAT THE INITIAL BREEDING MUST BE UNRELATED AS WELL AS THE BREEDS ARE 100% PURE SUPERIOR SPECIMENS.This is easier said than done. Superior individuals must be used since average individuals create average type offsprings or lesser and genetic degradation will occur. Parallel breeding lines are often use with this technique since one may need to reintroduce similar genetic material from an existing line if one fails. The other is that we heavily link breeding with the "Y" chromosome and one should view both "Y"and "X" genetics. Another factor is that crossing of cousins is a better solution since they are not too closely related and both vigor, viability and vitality is achieved.

"Crossbreeding" on the other hand is hybridization. It refers to (“non blood-related”) breeding where individuals are not related. Two sub-divisions are mentioned here. Firstly Crossbreeding with similar individuals of the same breed (not blood related) and secondly Outcrossing matings of completely different STABLE unique individuals. The later results with the more dominant genetics prevailing and is a world of unpredictability. Some rules apply but genetics and DNA is a fascinating topic we have yet to master.

[novice breeder]

What genetics are dominant?
I know some, can the rest be expressed?

White and Pigeon blood are dominant i.e. most of F1 carries their genes.

Golden, blue diamond are recessive i.e most of F1 carries the other type genes. To achieve a recessive gene as dominant, both must have the recessive gene.

Leopards are recessive and future inbreeding causes the spots to merge so back breeding or cross breeding to a strong spotted lineage is necessary for spots to prevail.

Snakeskin and albino is a mutation. Some variations occur but their will be individuals that revert to the base or ancestor form.

Intermediates are F1 generations: 50% resemblence of the two outcrosses. The next step is to localize the genetics or conform to a particular breed. Some times it is used to clean up a breed or unwanted genetics.

[novice breeder]

I will start with this for now, however i would appreciate input from expert breeders as well as critique my methods. Secondly i would like for breeding development of other established breeds.


BLUE WHITE BREED:

For example snow white X blue diamond creates blue white and other intermediates. The F1 which has the desired identical color pattern is either back crossed to parent or siblings to establish a new lineage. If one wants more white or blue on F2 cross with the relevant parent.

Golden Leopard Breed:

Golden (Brown based) X Original Red spotted green (Spots on most of body) results in a hybrid . Cross the siblings (hybrid) with the heavily spots and goldish based together to get Golden Leopard. In this case try using a female with most spots since i believe it is "X" related.
One can replace the red spotted green with a confirmed spotted leopard but watch for spots degradation in Subsequent generations. You could use an uncle/ aunt from F1 to strengthen the spots in F2 and onwards.

Golden Snakeskin Breed:
You can use a Blue snakeskin to create a Golden snakeskin using above technique. Make sure and use those that have proper straitions. Additionally use the ones with the 14 bars, some of the throwbacks results with a goldish sheen turquoise. FACT: one should know that from golden crosses (being recessive) approx 15% (estimated guess) will result in gold coloration.

I don't know what chromosomes are related for the new line and i need advice.

[Rod]

Homozygous- An animal is considered homozygous when they have two identical alleles or DNA sequences at one locus (position on the chromosomes). This can occur for both ressessive and dominant genes.

Heterozygous- An animal is considered heterozygous when they have two different alleles or DNA sequences at one locus.

When 2 discus are bred that are homozygous for a particular gene, you will produce 100% homozygous progeny (except in the extremely rare case of gene mutation) ie blue diamond x blue diamond = 100% blue diamond or in the case of a dominant gene snow white x snow white = 100% snow white.

When 2 discus are bred where one is a dominant homozygous individual and the other a ressessive homozygous individual the dominant gene will be expressed in 100% of the progeny. A pigeon blood x albino is a good example, all the progeny will look like pigeon bloods, but they are not homozygous, they are now considered heterozygous for the pigeon allele and the wild color allele ( wild color because that is the dominant gene for the albino). What this means is if they are then inbred you will get a mix of wild color and pigeons, among the pigeons (which dominates even over the wild dominant gene)some will be homozygous (1/3) and some heterozygous(2/3). All the wild color are homozygous.
In my example here i used the ressessive gene albino to make things interesting and indeed this gene disappears in the 1st generation of the cross, none of the fry will be albino pigeons! All the fry have 1 albino allele at the locus so are called carriers or intermediates. When 2 of these are bred together to produce the f2 generation, 1/4 of the fry will become homozygous for albino, another 1/4 will become homozygous for wild color, and 1/2 will be heterozygous for albino just like the parents.
When we want to combine the 2 desirable traits to make a homozygous strain of pigeon albino, i like to think in terms of 2 different goals to simplify the process in my mind. What i mean is we first need to introduce the genes ie f1 generation so a homozygous pigeon is crossed with a homozygous albino. All the f1 are heterozygous, in the case of the pigeon gene we can inbreed f1's and produce 25% homozygous pigeons, 50% heterozygous pigeons and 25% homozygous wild color. We discard the wild color and heterozygous pigeons (discovered by breeding results) and are left with true breeding pigeons. So 25 % of the f2's are true pigeons and now will produce 100% pigeons in the f3 generation. Regarding the albino gene, when we inbred the f1 generation, we produced 25% homozygous albino's, 50% albino carriers, and 25% wild type's in the f2 generation.
When these results are brought together, it shows that of the homozygous pigeons produced, 25% are also homozygous albinos. A quarter of a quarter is 6.25% so that many will be homozygous albino pigeons.
There will also be 6.25% homozygous pigeons.
12.5% homozygous pigeons carrying the albino gene.
12.5% albino heterozygous pigeons
25% heterozygous pigeons carrying the albino gene.
12.5% heterozygous pigeons
6.25% albino
12.5% wild color carrying albino gene
6.25% wild type

When the f2 homozygous albino pigeons are inbred they will produce 100% homozygous albino pigeons and our goal is reached.

Rod

[novice breeder]

Is SNOW LEOPARD AND SNOW SNAKE THE F2 GENERATION????


WHITE LEOPARD BREED:

For example SNOW WHITE X LEOPARD creates WHITE LEOPARDS and other intermediates. The F1 which has the desired identical color pattern is breed to siblings to establish a new lineage. This F2 generation is what we call SNOW LEOPARD.

For the Snow Snake, replace the leopard with a snakeskin and proceed for the F2 to obtain Snow Snake.

Any Suggestions?

[Northwestcoastdisc]

That is very interested in topic and good educated.

I would like Rod or Novice Breeder can show pictures of the offspring that you cross breed, cross back with the parents, etc. the pictures would help us to better understand.

That is long way to work on breed to make new strains, pure bloodline, etc it takes 4 or 5 or 6 years to make final strain their goals. but depend on what their age to able to spawn.

I have 9 babies gold leopard snakeskin but i have no prove but i guess, because i got the offspring from the leoaprd snakeskin. What I believe that the leopard has gene is carry gold leoaprd or gold leopard snakeskin or golden or golden snakeskin? i need to find out my 9 gold leopard snakeskin to grow out. the golden has 14 to 16 bars. i should take picture of them and post here.

Duncan

[Rod]

Hi Novice, i am not so sure that snow leopard could ever be considered a true strain, let me explain. They are bred from a snow white and a leopard and the results are as you say. But the f2 contains lots of snow leopard, but also wild type and snow whites. The sw and wild looking ones are the homozygous individuals and will breed true if they are bred as sw to sw or wt to wt. But all the snow leopards will be heterozygous and cannot produce 100% snow leopard babies no matter how many generations you breed. So it is possible to then select best patterns for future breeding and you will get a lot of nice snow leopards, but true strain, never!

Rod:)

[ashaysathe]

This is great discussion. I have a few questions:
1. In read earlier I read mutation - These mutations are purposely induced correct? I have also read other terms such as bulldog/standing egg how can are these alterations induced on purpose?
2. What are throwbacks?
3. As we progress thru fx to get more closer to our goal; does that change nature of the fish? e.g. some strains are skittish than the other or is this purely behavioral trait?

[Rod]

Hi ashaysathe,

1. I could well be wrong here, but i believe all mutations in discus are naturally bred. But i don't doubt some breeders have experimented on creating mutants by purposely inducing them...i have read of experiments as far back as the 1950's on xray and siamese fighters....why not discus!

The standing egg, bull dog gene is controlled by a mutant ressessive gene which appears to affect the skeletal structure of the discus. There also appears to be different levels of effect hence the different names for different looks.

2. Throwbacks is a very general term breeders apply to discus that are produced by breeding heterozygous types together. Like in the breeding of snow white and wild type, in the f1 they are all heterozygous snow leopards. But in f2 you will get snow white and wild type babies, these are the throwbacks as they have the pure dominent genes of the grandparents and will look as such. You must breed homozygous individuals to avoid getting throwbacks and in some types this is immpossible. Snow leopard and other white cross strains are a good example of this.

3. Very good question, i wonder about that myself. It is well shown in dogs and cats that what you describe does happen. Do discus have the same capacity for brain function as a mammal?....i think the answer is yes. I believe we breeders should select for behavioural traits, disease resistence , not too aggresive disposition, as well as how the discus looks.
Off course discus can be skittish by water quality or disease, so water and care must always be adequate for the discus.

Rod:)

[ashaysathe]

Hi,

Off-late we have seen majority of shipments with "Red/Orange/Golden" based fish. e.g. Penang Erruption is an instant hit; Albino LSS are instant hit.
Why isn't there a blue genetics ? To my limited exposure I have not seen a blue striated fish for sale in a few shipments. Jeffery Yang used to ship amazing Altum Flora and Blue Turq. But not anymore. Dunno why.. may be a demand/supply thing?
Question to you on this topic is - If my goal is Blue Spotted fish what would be my parents to get that?
Again all variations are golden/red based; why a blue based mutation not tried may be tried but not sold or not as vibrant or appealing. Any thoughts?

[Rod]

Hi,

Off-late we have seen majority of shipments with "Red/Orange/Golden" based fish. e.g. Penang Erruption is an instant hit; Albino LSS are instant hit.
Why isn't there a blue genetics ? To my limited exposure I have not seen a blue striated fish for sale in a few shipments. Jeffery Yang used to ship amazing Altum Flora and Blue Turq. But not anymore. Dunno why.. may be a demand/supply thing?
Question to you on this topic is - If my goal is Blue Spotted fish what would be my parents to get that?
Again all variations are golden/red based; why a blue based mutation not tried may be tried but not sold or not as vibrant or appealing. Any thoughts?

Hi,

There are many blue based discus available, my latest import from Jeffrey Yang included 6 blue varieties if i am following your definition correctly. They are the most popular group and almost all suppliers will have them available.

Penang eruption is not red/orange/golden based as you suggest, they are a wild form of discus but carrying snakeskin genetics. Pattern is manipulated by selective breeding only, not mutation base like red/orange/golden.

many semi royal blue wilds have a spotted pattern, or crosses between browns and royal blues will also give blue spots.

Do you really know what is a mutation? You mention blue based mutation and why they aren't being tried! I wish it were that easy, mutation is not something you can try for, it is pure luck. There have been only around 10 interesting mutated discus varieties out of the many millions of spawns us hobbiests have performed around the world. It is not something that can be 'tried'.

[mcsinny99]

This is a great thread! I have some questions.

1. How do you determine a mutation in a crossbred first generation? Would you need to breed back with the parent or sibling?

2. If I am reading this right, will breeding 2 siblings of desirable traits form a cross result in similar traits of those siblings or will they be more similar to the original cross breed parents?

I recently crossed a blue diamond with an alenquer and am very curious as to the mix of the offspring they will produce and how to get the desirable traits to form a more stable base.

[Rod]

Hi mcsinny,

1. Mutant discus look vastly different and will be clearly so amongst the spawn, for instance if you are breeding 2 red turquoise parents and suddenly some blue diamonds appear amongst the fry, it is because a grandparent or more distant relative was a blue diamond and was crossbred into the strain. This can happen when a mutant discus is controlled by a ressessive gene, it passes the gene to future generations without actually causing them to show the mutation. It is only when 2 carriers of the mutant gene are bred together come bd's from red turk parents.
Inbreeding is possibly the best way to determine genetic traits, but breeding back with parents and other relatives and even outbreeding all have a place in determining genetic makeup.

2. The short answer is most likely no. It depends on what the original cross was and how the genes are controlling.

Crossing with a blue diamond means all the fry are carrying a ressessive mutant gene for the bd. If you were to inbreed the progeny from your cross you will receive blue diamond fry. Or back crossing the progeny with a blue diamond should give you a 50/50 split.

Good luck with your breeding :)

[prolude006]

So what would a Cobalt blue x Red turq give you for fry possibly?
Is it generally considered best to breed discus of the same variety? Do breeders try for unique strands of colors and patterns or go for a more pure bred fish if you can call it that?
Mine paired off and I keep 5 discus together, all of a different color variation! So I had no choice!! lol

[mcsinny99]

I think perhaps a sticky with 3-4 inches into development is in order. Maybe prepare a current list of cross-types and percentages. I will volunteer my cross mix. I will start with these pics...

Parents

http://i429.photobucket.com/albums/qq20/mcsinny99/fryandparents007.jpg

One inch offspring 1st gen, lost a few, 60 left...

http://i429.photobucket.com/albums/qq20/mcsinny99/fryandparents005.jpg

My new quest is whether or not the red pectoral fin can be joined with the blue cover. They won't stop breeding, very healthy couple. They seem very small, but they are workin'.:)

[mcsinny99]

And if the bright red fin can bred in alenquer, how can it be back bred to show as a "dominant gene" when crossed with a BD? I have two (I'm taking a guess at gen) 3rd gen BD's that seem to be bowing, one has black pectorals, other is blue pectoral fins. Is the pectoral fin pigmentation dominant or recessive in BD's (blue or black-and is black considered wild or undesirable-understand all blue:))? Which of the two ideal pectoral colors is more prevalent per gen?

[rfeiller]

it would be much easier to follow genetics if it is graphed or charted out.

by the way, the creators of the Pigeon blood where accused of creating them in a lab.
Blue diamonds took many generations to create, in fact many of the first blue diamonds actually had the vertical bars burned off with UV or so the story goes.

gregor mendal used a very simplistic method of proving his theory of genetics. if you are working with developing one or two characteristics a simple chart will work for you.

by the way exceptional fish have always come out of average fish. by exceptional of course it has nothing to do with other than tweaking the body shape, hi-body, hi-fin, vail fins, round head, color etc. to something we perceive as a superior fish.

remember the superior fish is the brown discus, it is the strongest most fertile, the strongest immune system, and the longest lived.

have fun

[mcsinny99]

my my this pair is pretty small to be breeding. im sure they will and are stressed out by the babies.

the outcome of this cross will surely only be some blue turqoise with varying blue thickness.

I was shocked the first time eggs showed up, for sure.:)
They don't seem stressed at all, however. Still eat from my hand and don't seem to mind moving, imo they seem to like to move when it's time to get the fry off of them. After 2 weeks they look a little haggard, but then they heal up fast and go right back to getting it on. I know most people would love to have the problem, but I really wish they would take a break, my 2 tanks has turned into 6 in a month!

I agree with the out come, but which traits from the 2 are dominant/recessive. Can things like pectoral fin color be treated as a seperate trait?

[mcsinny99]

it would be much easier to follow genetics if it is graphed or charted out.

by the way, the creators of the Pigeon blood where accused of creating them in a lab.
Blue diamonds took many generations to create, in fact many of the first blue diamonds actually had the vertical bars burned off with UV or so the story goes.

gregor mendal used a very simplistic method of proving his theory of genetics. if you are working with developing one or two characteristics a simple chart will work for you.

by the way exceptional fish have always come out of average fish. by exceptional of course it has nothing to do with other than tweaking the body shape, hi-body, hi-fin, vail fins, round head, color etc. to something we perceive as a superior fish.

remember the superior fish is the brown discus, it is the strongest most fertile, the strongest immune system, and the longest lived.

have fun

How would you design a chart as such and is there a link?

Like the blue diamonds, I have started microwaving the fish with bull hair to create a new savage underwater beast the likes of which man will tremble before!:alien:
I am curious as to whether of not any these traits we are talking about have been documented or is this considered trade secret territory?
Out of the two bd's in a seperate tank does anyone know if black or blue pectoral is dominate/submissive? After think about it my guess is the blue is submissive, seeming like the black is more of a "wild" type gene, but again I have no access to records of breeding or any kind of documentation.

Beware the bull fish men. They are coming!

[rfeiller]

the black was bred out of the true blue diamonds. the stripes across the bridge of the nose were also eliminated. if you have black on the diamonds it is a throwback or someone outcrossed it.

the uv light spectrum that was used, i'll have to see if i still have that info. the blue diamond is an old strain by todays standards.

what made the blue diamond special was it was blue and nothing but blue.

the PB was introduced with much fanfare at the Aquarama in the 80's by Kiti from Bangkok. it was a sensation and started a whole rumor mill. Kiti and his organization, which controlled he told me 125,000 discus in 2001 when i visited him. the quantities of discus they have to work with represents a tremendous gene pool.

[rfeiller]

the simpliest graph or chart for genetics is a large square divided into nine equal squares, 3 high by 3 wide. you designate upper case and lower case letters and numbers to represent each trait. the upper horizonat can represent the female's or male's traits and the left vertical side of the large square can represent the mate's traits(a truely homozygos animal is genetically identical, you don't accomplish that outside of twin embreos or by cloning) when you work to set a strain you are working one trait at a time. that is easy to track with this simple chart. in my experience it took six crossings to set the trait i was working with.

[Rod]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Punnett_square

Good info there on how to draw a punnett square and calculate expected outcomes.

Rod:)

[mcsinny99]

Thanks for the tip on the Punnett square. With discus do we use the the 2 letter per side or 4 letter per side version? Also, to determine what is recessive and what is dominant, is the 25% fairly reliable (on 2 letter square, example BB,Bb x CC, Cc = 25% bc)?
How many generations in will the traits reveal themselves as dominant or recessive, or in the case of 2 recessive which of the 2 is dominant recessive?:confused:
On second generation of a crossed pair would the 4 letter per slot box be the best?
Trying to think this all out for the first time is a great way to get a headache. Thanks afor all help.:)

[doc3toes]

, is the 25% fairly reliable (on 2 letter square, example BB,Bb x CC, Cc = 25% bc)?


had a few beers, but : the more offspring, the greater the accuracy of the %ages. considering a spawn of 100 fry, you should get numbers pretty close to this %age. unless one of the genes or alleles carries some lethality. if the numbers dont match, then the said trait is likely to be influenced by more than one gene. Aa is one gene 2 allelea, AaBB is 2 genes 4 allleles, where A is dominant over a and B is dominant over b. Aa is saying the trait is controlled by one gene (animal is heterozygous (mixed - 1 copy dominant allele and 1 copy recessive allele) and AaBB is saying there is 2 genes (heterozygous for A gene and Homozygous (2 dominant) for B)controlling the trait.
feel free to correct ....not sure beer and genetics go together.

[doc3toes]

ps. your avitar is nasty!:sick2:

[mcsinny99]

ps. your avitar is nasty!:sick2:

Have some holiday spirit! :D

[mcsinny99]

had a few beers, but : the more offspring, the greater the accuracy of the %ages. considering a spawn of 100 fry, you should get numbers pretty close to this %age. unless one of the genes or alleles carries some lethality. if the numbers dont match, then the said trait is likely to be influenced by more than one gene. Aa is one gene 2 allelea, AaBB is 2 genes 4 allleles, where A is dominant over a and B is dominant over b. Aa is saying the trait is controlled by one gene (animal is heterozygous (mixed - 1 copy dominant allele and 1 copy recessive allele) and AaBB is saying there is 2 genes (heterozygous for A gene and Homozygous (2 dominant) for B)controlling the trait.
feel free to correct ....not sure beer and genetics go together.

So really, I can record seperate 2 letter squares according to the traits I wish to follow, or breed towards and the 4 letter is merely a record of two seperate traits? Or, do I need the 4 letter square to map the the trait as it can be controlled by 2(or more?) genes?

[MostlyDiscus]

No harm intended naked santa but your Av would scare my kids(I really dont know what to think of it). No bust on your poor fish(they cant help the enviorment you have shackled them with) but they look awfull. I would have destroyed them weeks ago and would never condiser them for breeding. Sorry bud... just the way I see it.

[MostlyDiscus]

Honestly, Mc99, your probally a real nice person. I do bring my childern to this site(I really want to get them into discus) so they can see what its about. And feed the babies while I am at work.:D Here is a cross Im working on atm. Male is the albino. Half the fry on him, the other on the female. I would guess 150 or so babies. Hope to hear from you more. You have great questions. Ed

[Rod]

Trying to think this all out for the first time is a great way to get a headache.

Yep, and if you aren't getting a headache then you aren't paying attention!

[Rod]

Thanks for the tip on the Punnett square. With discus do we use the the 2 letter per side or 4 letter per side version?
i always think in terms of 1 trait at a time, i find it easier on my head.
Also, to determine what is recessive and what is dominant, is the 25% fairly reliable (on 2 letter square, example BB,Bb x CC, Cc = 25% bc)?

Yep, pretty reliable.

How many generations in will the traits reveal themselves as dominant or recessive, or in the case of 2 recessive which of the 2 is dominant recessive?:confused:

1 spawn will reveal ressessive or dominant, dominant traits will show themselves, while ressessives hide. ie cross a brown with a pigeon and you will get pigeon fry....dominant. Cross a brown with a golden and you get 100% brown fry....ressessive.

On second generation of a crossed pair would the 4 letter per slot box be the best?
Trying to think this all out for the first time is a great way to get a headache. Thanks afor all help.:)

that is one method, i prefer 1 trait at a time for simplicity.

Rod:)

[Rod]

Thanks for the tip on the Punnett square. With discus do we use the the 2 letter per side or 4 letter per side version?

i always think in terms of 1 trait at a time, i find it easier on my head.


Also, to determine what is recessive and what is dominant, is the 25% fairly reliable (on 2 letter square, example BB,Bb x CC, Cc = 25% bc)?

Yep, pretty reliable.

How many generations in will the traits reveal themselves as dominant or recessive, or in the case of 2 recessive which of the 2 is dominant recessive?:confused:

1 spawn will reveal ressessive or dominant, dominant traits will show themselves, while ressessives hide. ie cross a brown with a pigeon and you will get pigeon fry....dominant. Cross a brown with a golden and you get 100% brown fry....ressessive.

On second generation of a crossed pair would the 4 letter per slot box be the best?
Trying to think this all out for the first time is a great way to get a headache. Thanks afor all help.:)

that is one method, i prefer 1 trait at a time for simplicity.

Rod:)

[mcsinny99]

No harm intended naked santa but your Av would scare my kids(I really dont know what to think of it). No bust on your poor fish(they cant help the enviorment you have shackled them with) but they look awfull. I would have destroyed them weeks ago and would never condiser them for breeding. Sorry bud... just the way I see it.

Real nice "bud".
They have had fry on them for quite some time, when this happens sometimes they look a little shabby, but perhaps I will consider culling them for mating. As for enviornment, I "shackled" them in a 50% daily water change tank and feed them from my hand with or without fry.

My kids were very upset today as well when you told them the family pets should be destroyed. We always start the day with in depth discussions on genetics while they get ready for pre school.

Great comment.:D

[mcsinny99]

Thanks for the tip on the Punnett square. With discus do we use the the 2 letter per side or 4 letter per side version?

i always think in terms of 1 trait at a time, i find it easier on my head.


Also, to determine what is recessive and what is dominant, is the 25% fairly reliable (on 2 letter square, example BB,Bb x CC, Cc = 25% bc)?

Yep, pretty reliable.

How many generations in will the traits reveal themselves as dominant or recessive, or in the case of 2 recessive which of the 2 is dominant recessive?:confused:

1 spawn will reveal ressessive or dominant, dominant traits will show themselves, while ressessives hide. ie cross a brown with a pigeon and you will get pigeon fry....dominant. Cross a brown with a golden and you get 100% brown fry....ressessive.

On second generation of a crossed pair would the 4 letter per slot box be the best?
Trying to think this all out for the first time is a great way to get a headache. Thanks afor all help.:)

that is one method, i prefer 1 trait at a time for simplicity.

Rod:)

So, and I think I have it, when sticking to the smaller punnett square per trait does that then allow for hidden genes within a cross? Aka ab vs Ab in their repspective squares.

[MostlyDiscus]

99

Sorry about the "bud" thing. Just havent seen a name for you. Please tell me that was not a picture of you mostly naked in the avatar that was banned. My guess is that you are of a unique intellect and sense of humor. Forgive me for being harsh on the picture of your breeders. I have had to destroy many discus in the past that would otherwise be passed on to others that shouldnt be passed on. I have grown a little numb to the hobbyist side of things. Be Well and Merry Christmas to you and your family. Ed

[Rod]

So, and I think I have it, when sticking to the smaller punnett square per trait does that then allow for hidden genes within a cross? Aka ab vs Ab in their repspective squares.
Hidden genes are controlled by ressessive genes, ressessives are always denoted with a small letter. Dominants a capital letter. If we were to use the golden and cross with a wild brown the progeny would therefore be denoted as Wg. This means they look like a wild type, but carry a golden ressessive. Each letter represents an allele from each parent. When we breed the Wg's together, and apply it to the punnett square we would get 1 square with WW, 2 squares with Wg and 1 square gg. Only 1/4 are gg, theses ones look like goldens and are pure breeding. The rest are browns, but 2/3 are Wg just like the parents. And this is how genes can be controlled, lets say i decide to cross the original golden and breed with a daughter or son. That would be gg x Wg, apply that to the punnett square and you can see the results are dramatically different.

Rod:)

[doc3toes]

Have some holiday spirit! :D
actually i was just joking. i sould have said that. reminds me of the rugby party days. nasty - in a funny way.

[mcsinny99]

Hidden genes are controlled by ressessive genes, ressessives are always denoted with a small letter. Dominants a capital letter. If we were to use the golden and cross with a wild brown the progeny would therefore be denoted as Wg. This means they look like a wild type, but carry a golden ressessive. Each letter represents an allele from each parent. When we breed the Wg's together, and apply it to the punnett square we would get 1 square with WW, 2 squares with Wg and 1 square gg. Only 1/4 are gg, theses ones look like goldens and are pure breeding. The rest are browns, but 2/3 are Wg just like the parents. And this is how genes can be controlled, lets say i decide to cross the original golden and breed with a daughter or son. That would be gg x Wg, apply that to the punnett square and you can see the results are dramatically different.

Rod:)

Thanks Rod,

I think it is starting to make some sense to me, but I am still thinking about about this. My issue is since it is a cross and not previously mapped on a punnett square I am thinking it will take at least 3 gens to truely understand which traits are dominant or recessive between the two strains. And then I can back check the squares to see which percentages are what thus giving me the dominant genes and the recessive, correct?
The fish are from Hans, and one thing he mentioned is with his alenquers the red pectoral fin shows up in around half of them. So this doesn't really give the dominant or recessive gene.
To throw a big wrench in this project, what will sex do this?:crazy:
I realize it is pretty well impossible to sex fry.
I'm getting some advil.

[mcsinny99]

actually i was just joking. i sould have said that. reminds me of the rugby party days. nasty - in a funny way.

No offense taken. Just glad someone enjoyed it.:D
No, it is not me.

Anyone can google christmas avatars and find some good stuff.

Your team was the "Fighting Santa's" I take it?

[mcsinny99]

So they did it again, I am running out of tanks.
mom

http://i429.photobucket.com/albums/qq20/mcsinny99/allfish12-12-2008mom.jpg

Dad still kinda shabby, he will be good before hatch time...

http://i429.photobucket.com/albums/qq20/mcsinny99/dadallfish12-12-2008039.jpg

How may I mark traits from these two? Any ideas to start?

Note the red anal fins on "mom"...

[Eddie]

Those are some seriously stunted discus. How big are they? They look like they are about 2.5". :o

Eddie

[MostlyDiscus]

Better pics 99,

You really need to know where the backround on the pair first. Looks like a nice red maybe alanquer or inca. Blue cant really tell but maybe a turq or diamond. Its best to have a goal in mind though as to what your trying to achieve, ie albinoxTangerine line in BD and see if I can a pink or violet discus. My thought is cut your teeth on these guys and if it works for you then you may want to check out some of the vendors put known bloodlines thus giving you a starting point. LMAO about it now. I really thought that might be you in the av. That was kind of scary,funny now but scary. :D Ed

[Rod]

Thanks Rod,

I think it is starting to make some sense to me, but I am still thinking about about this. My issue is since it is a cross and not previously mapped on a punnett square I am thinking it will take at least 3 gens to truely understand which traits are dominant or recessive between the two strains. And then I can back check the squares to see which percentages are what thus giving me the dominant genes and the recessive, correct?
The fish are from Hans, and one thing he mentioned is with his alenquers the red pectoral fin shows up in around half of them. So this doesn't really give the dominant or recessive gene.
To throw a big wrench in this project, what will sex do this?:crazy:
I realize it is pretty well impossible to sex fry.
I'm getting some advil.

I think the pectorals are always clear on a discus? Maybe you mean the pelvic/ventral fins which can be yellow, orange or red on wild forms?
Anyway, this is a dominant wild trait and all that is needed is strict selective breeding to concentrate the red pigment cells in that area for improvement. I do not think a punnett square can help you very much here. If you cross breed whatever strains, and you want super red as a feature, then you simply select for that trait, the reddest with the reddest each generation. :)

[mcsinny99]

I think the pectorals are always clear on a discus? Maybe you mean the pelvic/ventral fins which can be yellow, orange or red on wild forms?
Anyway, this is a dominant wild trait and all that is needed is strict selective breeding to concentrate the red pigment cells in that area for improvement. I do not think a punnett square can help you very much here. If you cross breed whatever strains, and you want super red as a feature, then you simply select for that trait, the reddest with the reddest each generation. :)

Yes you are right my bad, ventral.
I agree they are stunted, but they are 3.5 inch. I think the lfs did it to them, the fish are orgininally from Hans, which I am sure he didn't cause the stunt.

[mcsinny99]

Better pics 99,

You really need to know where the backround on the pair first. Looks like a nice red maybe alanquer or inca. Blue cant really tell but maybe a turq or diamond. Its best to have a goal in mind though as to what your trying to achieve, ie albinoxTangerine line in BD and see if I can a pink or violet discus. My thought is cut your teeth on these guys and if it works for you then you may want to check out some of the vendors put known bloodlines thus giving you a starting point. LMAO about it now. I really thought that might be you in the av. That was kind of scary,funny now but scary. :D Ed

What is the av? I am a hobbiest. It is an alenquer.
Just interested in genetics and breeding. I am currently running 8 tanks, one is planted for show, rest are for the breeding.
The goal again is blue bodied, red pelvic fins.

[Eddie]

Hey, more power to you my brother. If you got them breeding, make some awesome babies with them. I'd love to see the babies development so keep up with updates. It's definitely interesting to see some 3.5" stunted fish throw some top notch juveniles. Lets see if they can do it. Goodluck

Eddie

[mcsinny99]

You know, I don't think I really care if they are stunted, now that you mention it. The juvies eat like crazy and grow like crazy. The parents breed way too fast, but I found a wild card to keep the populations at bay-harder water. They spawned in those last pics and all the eggs were duds. To make them hatch all I do is add a water softener pillow to the setup. Thus, giving them longer healing times.
I do alot reasearch on this stuff (obviously) and it seems most of the time that show fish aren't usually the breeders, besides, growth stunts aren't a product of genes, they are the product of enviornment (yes I know there are exceptions). And, really, 3.5 inch just takes up less space than say 8 inch:). Something to think about.
Just fyi, they are the only stunted fish I have, I don't want to sound like a discus slumlord.

[Eddie]

No, not at all. I'm not giving any negative feedback to your fish or how they were raised. I totally understand where you are coming from. I am excited to see how the babies turn out too. Thanks

Eddie

[mcsinny99]

No, not at all. I'm not giving any negative feedback to your fish or how they were raised. I totally understand where you are coming from. I am excited to see how the babies turn out too. Thanks

Eddie

Didn't think you were. All good here!

[Eddie]

Hey there MC, how's the babies and pair doing these days? Any picture updates?


Eddie

[mcsinny99]

Well, I sold some, which messes up this project a little...
They are showing color in finage, cover is slower, I will try to get pics tonight.
They don't like to pose.:confused:

[Eddie]

Well, I sold some, which messes up this project a little...
They are showing color in finage, cover is slower, I will try to get pics tonight.
They don't like to pose.:confused:

Yeah, I want to see what them 2 discus threw. Like the colors, shapes. Thanks

Eddie

[mcsinny99]

They all look like this...
http://i429.photobucket.com/albums/qq20/mcsinny99/rosie2.jpg

[mcsinny99]

White t
hairy back should have known...:D

[mcsinny99]

JK
Give me a week or two, maybe three, starting to show colors...
http://i429.photobucket.com/albums/qq20/mcsinny99/fish2021.jpg
http://i429.photobucket.com/albums/qq20/mcsinny99/fish2022.jpg
http://i429.photobucket.com/albums/qq20/mcsinny99/fish2033.jpg

All pics by Larry, supporter of homeless santa's
http://i429.photobucket.com/albums/qq20/mcsinny99/kpottertour003.jpg

[mcsinny99]

I think, (it is hard to see in photo's because my camera sux, red fins are apparent, blue seems to come in after.
To early to say.:confused:
Sorry, at least I culled the rosies!

[mcsinny99]

They need time yet, BD's from all I have read take time to show cover. Alenquer pattern is obvious.


Why am I the only guinea pig here?
Some one else should have a cross...
If we are going to learn something from this, mine should not be the only example.

Some one else pony up.

Larry demands it,
http://i429.photobucket.com/albums/qq20/mcsinny99/rosie2.jpg

[mcsinny99]

lol
I mean Larry...
http://i429.photobucket.com/albums/qq20/mcsinny99/kpottertour003.jpg

[Eddie]

Thanks for the pics, gotta see how they turn out. Nice dog;)

Eddie

[AquatiCreations]

Hey Guys,

Does anyone have the break down on face coloration, Such as in the Red Melon strain? What factor(s) determines whether it has solid body color,or seperation of face from body?

Thanks!

[wanderingfish]

very interested
how are these discus developing?

[RLorts]

I have a pr of Snakeskins and the fry are divided into 14 bar, 9 bar and no bar. Both parents are 14 bar. I have read on this forum that Snakeskin is not set and has 14 bar, the 9 bar are throughbacks to Red Turq and no bar is Blue Diamond in the past. BD is recessive, right? I assume 9 bar( Turq ) is dominant. My question is how to setup the square for something like this scenerio? Would it be something like sTb for both parents and the outcome would have {ss, sT, Ts, sb, bs, TT, Tb, bT, bb} Would I be correct in assuming {ss, sb, bs} all be 14 bar, {bb} be no bar and the rest 9 bar. Have I assumed too much and have it wrong? Comments please?

[Rod]

Hey Guys,

Does anyone have the break down on face coloration, Such as in the Red Melon strain? What factor(s) determines whether it has solid body color,or seperation of face from body?

Thanks!

Face color in red melons i believe is controlled by a process called Polygenic inheritance. Very similar to how skin color in humans is inherited. Subtle variations occur even within the same breeding group and can be manipulated by selection. This in essence is the real secret to producing great discus, controlling quantative traits.

But foods fed will also have a strong determining effect on face color, in my experience red enhancers will make the face less white, along with the genetic traits.


I have a pr of Snakeskins and the fry are divided into 14 bar, 9 bar and no bar. Both parents are 14 bar. I have read on this forum that Snakeskin is not set and has 14 bar, the 9 bar are throughbacks to Red Turq and no bar is Blue Diamond in the past. BD is recessive, right? I assume 9 bar( Turq ) is dominant. My question is how to setup the square for something like this scenerio? Would it be something like sTb for both parents and the outcome would have {ss, sT, Ts, sb, bs, TT, Tb, bT, bb} Would I be correct in assuming {ss, sb, bs} all be 14 bar, {bb} be no bar and the rest 9 bar. Have I assumed too much and have it wrong? Comments please?

I believe the dominant snakeskin gene is controlled in a heterozygous manner ie 2 differing dna sequences at the locus of the chromosone. For labeling of the punnet square normal practice dictates it would be labelled, say, S & W on each side. S represents the dominant snakeskin dna sequence, and W represents the wild type non-mutated dna sequence. The calculated results would be 25% homozygous snakeskins, 50% heterozygous snakeskins and 25% homozygous wild type (9 bar). But in reality this does not occur with snakeskin, to the best of my knowledge homozygous snakeskins are not produced and it is unusual to get 75% snakeskins/25% nine bar split in practice (more like 50/50), suggesting the dna sequence for snakeskin is controlled in a differing manner, or perhaps there is a destructive component to the gene affecting only homozygous snakeskin, therefore not allowing them to develop into healthy discus.

Concerning the barless ones being produced,they could well be coming from an earlier introduction of the ressessive blue diamond gene. If both parents are carriers of the blue diamond dna sequence then it is entirely possible to produce a quantity of bds in each spawn. The punnet square in this case would be labeled as W, representing the wild type non mutated dna sequence, and b, representing the mutated ressessive blue diamond dna sequence. (Capital letters are always used for dominant genes and lower case letters for ressessive genes) The barless ones are the likely result (bb), they would be in both snakeskin and 9 bar form, though off course we can't see the bars and could only discern them from breeding experiments.

[RLorts]

Thanks for responding and make it clearer to me. However, that leaves me with even more questions. My parent snakeskins are siblings. The ratio of fry is as you thought for snakeskin and wild type, about even with no more than 10% barless. I am wondering about the barless genetics. Is the barless a recessive trait that happens to also be a blue diamond trait? If I follow what you are saying, then if I cross two of these barless I will get 14 bar, 9 bar and barless fry. Or will they all be barless because it is recessive?

[Rod]

The blue diamond barless type is just one variation of barless genes. I am not certain if all types are controlled in a ressessive way or not, and even if your barless guys are from the bd/barless variety. Normally this type is easy to tell even from a young age, as they are solid silver/blue, even when quite small.
If you breed 2 barless one together, you should get all barless ones if they are bd type. But one time i bred an albino alenquer (original type) with a golden based melon discus. All the fry were browns as expected, but an unusual thing happened with these discus, they were also barless. Inbred they produced as expected albinos, goldens and browns. But all the browns then have bars as normal......so, i backcrossed a female barless brown from the f1 ,with her golden melon father, and they produced 50/50 golden/browns. But all the browns again have normal bars....i'm still breeding with these and have not given up with the barless type but so far it is proving difficult to hold onto in this case.

Rod:)

[RLorts]

Thanks again for your response. I was told that my strain of snakeskins had blue diamond heritage. So I assume that is where the barless came from. I have several spawings and the ratios are pretty much the same in each spawn. The largest group, what I kept, is between 3" and 4". The barless ones are the smallest and haven't colored up in the body but I can tell they are not going to be solid blue. They have some red patches/areas in the fins but no lines or pattern. In one of the spawns, I had a golden fry that appeared to be barless, but I lost it at about the 1 month stage.
I find it very interesting that the Snakeskin and barless genetics do not seem to follow the rules, so to speak. I have heard that Snakeskins are considered a mutation. Is barless considered to be a mutation as well. What are some of the other genetic mutations that are difficlut or impossible to set?

[Rod]

Those barless ones sound very interesting, any chance of a photo? They almost sound like they might be ghost discus!

Yes i think the snakeskin is a proper mutation, and i think barless is as well. My take on mutation is any trait that deviates from normal/usual wild type discus is a mutation.

[RLorts]

I am definitely not a photographer but here is the threee types of fry.

46669

[Daniella]

What would I get from a female flamingo (yellow face red melon) and a pigeon blood checkerboard male (nearly no peppering)?



Those barless ones sound very interesting, any chance of a photo? They almost sound like they might be ghost discus!

Yes i think the snakeskin is a proper mutation, and i think barless is as well. My take on mutation is any trait that deviates from normal/usual wild type discus is a mutation.

[Rod]

What would I get from a female flamingo (yellow face red melon) and a pigeon blood checkerboard male (nearly no peppering)?

Hi Daniella,

A few possibilities there. flamingo is golden based, it also has the stripeless gene (no face pattern). The cbpb is pigeon based with broken pattern.

If the cbpb is homozygous pigeon, then all pigeons. The stripless gene will cause about 50/50 stripeless/patterned ratio. The pattern will be highly variable but i think still mostly broken up like checkerboard. all will be golden carriers.

if the cbpb is heterozygous pigeon, then about 75% pigeons and 25% brown based. Stripless gene influence will be the same. all pigeons will be heterozygous and all progeny will be golden carriers.

if the cbpb is heterozygous pigeon and golden carrier, then 50% golden based and 50% pigeon based. all pigeons will be heterozygous carrying golden gene. Stripeless gene, again the same.

Other possibilities can occur depending on what genes your discus has hidden away.

hth

Rod

[Rod]

Ah Daniella, i noticed you repeated the question elsewhere with a picture. That red is no flamingo discus and is genetically different. Results above will not be accurate in this case.

Have a nice day

Rod

[Rod]

I am definitely not a photographer but here is the threee types of fry.

46669

Very interesting looking barless. I think it may be a hairline discus, extremely rare but will occasionally appear from breeding 2 14 bar snakeskins together. They are slow growing and slow coloring, and also barless except for a peduncle bar, which your guy appears to have as well. They don't develop any pattern on the face but at about 12 months tiny bits of pattern will begin to show in the fins and increase very slowly with age. The pattern is hair thin. I have bred a few from a pair of 14 bar web leopards i had, and i have included a pic of one. Notice no pattern on the face. From what information i can find, the breeding of 2 hairlines will produce all hairlines, but are incredibly difficult to raise. If you post more photos as they mature, i would love to see.

[kaceyo]

Hey Rod,
That's an interesting looking fish. Looks like my "X" before she put her make up on in the morning.
Would the hairlines be useful in creating a line of spotteds with very small numerous spots, or more for eliminating stress bars? Have they been used in creating any strains that you know of?
Thanks,

Kacey

[Eddie]

Hey Rod,
That's an interesting looking fish. Looks like my "X" before she put her make up on in the morning.
Would the hairlines be useful in creating a line of spotteds with very small numerous spots, or more for eliminating stress bars? Have they been used in creating any strains that you know of?
Thanks,

Kacey

LMAO, so funny.....

Kacey, do you have Andrew Sohs second book? It mentions a little about the hairline type.

Eddie

[kaceyo]

Hey Eddie,
I don't have the second book, only the first. I've seen references to hairlines on the asian forums but didn't know what they were refering to. Seems like they would be useful in creating barless strains at the very least.

Kacey

[Eddie]

Hey Eddie,
I don't have the second book, only the first. I've seen references to hairlines on the asian forums but didn't know what they were refering to. Seems like they would be useful in creating barless strains at the very least.

Kacey

Could be, I pretty sure in Andrew's book it talks about hairlines being very weak/slow to develop. I'll have to confirm that but I am pretty positive.

Eddie

[Rod]

Hey Rod,
That's an interesting looking fish. Looks like my "X" before she put her make up on in the morning.
Would the hairlines be useful in creating a line of spotteds with very small numerous spots, or more for eliminating stress bars? Have they been used in creating any strains that you know of?
Thanks,

Kacey

Mate,

Interesting is being kind, she's pretty darn ugly don't you think? Your ex can't be that bad....lol. I'll try and find a better shot but it took me over half an hour to find this one as i never really aimed the camera at her...lol. She just kinda appears in the background of a few shots of nicer tankmates.

Regarding the breeding of them i could never get one to spawn. Just never seemed interested in doing the deed. I guess they will be incorperated into other strains in asia, but the slow growth and slow coloring doesn't sound viable as a commercial strain. They have been around for a long time now, and are still super rare.

[kaceyo]

Rod,
No, they wouldn't be worth breeding as a strain, but who knows what their genes, injected into other SS lines, might bring out.

Kacey

[poconoboss]

Ok, let me see if I can understand this ( I have zero knowledge with discus breeding)....Unlike humans in which a baby will look like both parents, are you saying when you breed Discus 1 with Discus 2, you will get some fry that look like 1 and some that look like 2 based on the dom. gene? They won't be mixed?

Do I have this right?

I have a Red Dragon (my avatar) that has paired up with a blue cobalt and they lay eggs frequently but the wrigglers get eaten. I would like to move them to a breeding tank. If I am successful, what type of fry would I get?

[Eddie]

Ok, let me see if I can understand this ( I have zero knowledge with discus breeding)....Unlike humans in which a baby will look like both parents, are you saying when you breed Discus 1 with Discus 2, you will get some fry that look like 1 and some that look like 2 based on the dom. gene? They won't be mixed?

Do I have this right?

I have a Red Dragon (my avatar) that has paired up with a blue cobalt and they lay eggs frequently but the wrigglers get eaten. I would like to move them to a breeding tank. If I am successful, what type of fry would I get?

I am not an expert but if your red dragon is pigeon based as it seems to be, I believe the fry will basically turn out to be very heavily peppered pigeons. Thats just knowledge from reading posts on the forum.

Take care,

Eddie

[Rod]

Ok, let me see if I can understand this ( I have zero knowledge with discus breeding)....Unlike humans in which a baby will look like both parents, are you saying when you breed Discus 1 with Discus 2, you will get some fry that look like 1 and some that look like 2 based on the dom. gene? They won't be mixed?



When i like to think about genetics, i prefer to think in traits. For example, i have green eyes, my wife has blue eyes. Our children, one has green eyes, the other blue. They do not have greeny blue mixed eyes. This trait is controlled by a genetic process whereby we can use mendels law to calculate possible outcomes.
When we look at the big picture in genetic terms, yes i agree with you that our children are a blending of the parents, and the same holds true for fish.

Rod:)

[RLorts]

I have kept several of the barless (hairline?) fry and after 9 months they are half the size of the rest. About 2" vs 4" -5" for the 9 and 13 bars. I would like to grow some out just to see what they become.
I should add that I feed them a beefheart mixture and blackworms.

[K22]

This thread has fried my brain! I'm trying desperately to understand possible colour combinations resulting from crossbreeding, yet after all that reading I am still no closer to understanding :( Some threads/books on cross-breeding/strain 'fixing' have made it sound a little too simple I think...

I have beautiful SW Male which I'm looking to breed with a Pigeon Blood Silver. I ordered the SW from Malaysia as a AA grade, The PB is Stendker and although a fantastic fish, is HEAVILY peppered. The peppering on the fish is green.

From my readings, I was of the understanding that breeding these two, the SW could potentially eliminate the peppering, giving me a much better Pigeon Silver. Is that possible or way off the mark? What are the possibilities, which parent/grandparent would I need to breed the appropriately coloured siblings with to 'fix' the strain?

What other colour combinations could I expect to see?

[Rod]

Both snow white and pigeon are controlled by a dominant gene. Snow white is also homozygous (meaning it has 2 identical mutant dna sequences). Pigeon can be either homozygous or heterozygous (only 1 mutant dna sequence)

When we breed these together, the resulting fry will all be snow white based as this gene dominates over pigeon, every single one of them. But they will be heterozygous offspring.

I'll try and explain a little better. The discus egg gets 1 dna sequence from each parent at conception, to make a pair of dna sequences on each position of the chromosomes of the new baby. This determines what the fish will look like. Homozygous = identical pairing of dna sequence. When we cross this does not happen, we are getting 2 different dna sequences so this is called heterozygous.

Lets assume your pigeon is also homozygous. This means the fry will be both pigeon and snow white based. Both dominant genes struggling for exposure. We already discussed above that all the fry will be snow white based, and indeed this is true. But none will look like a snow white, there will be markings and pattern inherited from the pigeon gene. And the white won't be the crisp white of the snow white, but more a greyish tint. Essentially it is trying to look like both, with neither quite succeeding.

When we inbreed these discus, we will receive a dna sequence from each parent to the f2. The sequence will be either pigeon or snow white from each parent, quite randomly. Each sperm will be either a pigeon sperm or a snow white sperm, NOT a mixed sperm as many believe. The same goes for the egg, it is either a snow white egg, or a pigeon egg as the mother is both a pigeon and a snow white (remember she is heterozyous). She makes both types of eggs because she has both genes. We use a punnet square as a math tool for statistics, to calculate the results when sperm meets egg. In this case it will be 25% snow whites(homozygous), 25% pigeons (homozygous) and 50% will be just like the f1's (crossed looking heterozygous)

In the case where your pigeon is heterozygous (unlike snow white, the heterozygous and homozygous pigeon look identical), this means it has both the pigeon dna sequence, and the wild type dna sequence (wild because that is what the pigeon mutated from) so when we cross with snow white you will receive all white/grey based babies as above, 50% will also be pigeon and 50 % will be wild based as well. They will all in likelihood look similar to each other. But when we breed the f2 many results are possible depending on the pair combination. In all cases snow white fry should be 25%, but there will be more crossed heterozygous individuals, some pigeon fry (both hetero and homo are possible depending on parent combination), and some brown/turk type fry as well, again depending on parent combination.

Whew, i need a coffee after that. Hope that makes sense and helps you out. Could be a very exciting cross. :)

[Eddie]

Excellent break down Rod! Very interesting read for everybody.

Take care,

Eddie

[RLorts]

Ok, I've got a funny mating. I was rearranging tank space and thought I'll just throw this one in with those for a few days until I decide what to do with it, guess what? A Blue PB male mated with a wild red Uatuma female. The fry are free swimming and feeding off the female. What are these fry going to look like?
I haven't had any PB fry but I assumed they would be lighter colored fry. All the fry look the normal dark color, but they are just now free swimming. I would think that the wild genes would dominate over PB and the fry would somewhat resemble the female. I would also assume any PB now or future generations would be heavily peppered and pretty much worthless.
Any comments on my assumptions or ideas on what else I might expect?

[RLorts]

One day later and the fry are much much lighter. After rereading this thread, it seems all fry will be PB.

[Rod]

One day later and the fry are much much lighter. After rereading this thread, it seems all fry will be PB.

Yes most likely all pigeons, perhaps some brownish ones too depending on how the pigeon gene is carried. Not all pigeon crosses are heavily peppered, some are, some aren't.

Good luck with the cross, sounds interesting :)

[MostlyDiscus]

I should send a picture of BSSxRing Lep. Sorry but Im too lazy to go down to the room right now. The babies are mixed. Some really kewl striped Blue turks. Some pure RLs. A RedSS. A really nice BSS. You really get a mix. I did cross a Albino with A tangerine. All came out PB As Rod Stated. I have green eyes and the Mrs. has brown. 3 kids have brown and one has green.


Ed

[kaceyo]

I used to get browns and Rose Reds out of my yellow Crystal pair. As Rod said, it's all in the genes. Untill you see the outcome, you don't know what you'll get.

Kacey

[K22]

Rod,

Just wanted to drop you a thank you for the reply.

As it happens the SW has now paired up with a BT and are nearing the end of day 2 with their spawn, not what I had intended, but hey-ho, it's good practice for him after the 4 odd months of egg eating he's enjoyed!

BTW, is Turq dominant or recessive :confused: Thanks, K22

[Rod]

Rod,

Just wanted to drop you a thank you for the reply.

As it happens the SW has now paired up with a BT and are nearing the end of day 2 with their spawn, not what I had intended, but hey-ho, it's good practice for him after the 4 odd months of egg eating he's enjoyed!

BTW, is Turq dominant or recessive :confused: Thanks, K22

Your welcome.


BT is dominant, simply replace the homozygous pigeon X SW explanation with the BT and the results will follow the same sequence.

Rod :)

[Bigfishes]

Hi all. Does anyone know if there's a guide (preferably with photos) or a flowchart that shows the outcomes of different crosses? Thanks.

Greg

[babers]

Has anyone crossed a Tangerine and Red Marlboro?...Just wondering what they will look like.
Thanks.

[Rod]

Hi Joel,

Do you have a pic of the Tangerine? There have been a few types over the years with Tangerine in the name.

Rod

[valery]

Hi Joel,

Do you have a pic of the Tangerine? There have been a few types over the years with Tangerine in the name.

Rod

Hello Rod, I too have a tangerine pigeon blood discus, that I am breeding with a checkerboard pigeon blood.

I was wondering about inbreeding. In order to eventually end up with the cleanest possible PB discus, would I be able to keep inbreeding from this pair and their fry? and achieve a clean result? (limited peppering)

Also, how far can inbreeding really go until you start coming up with undesirable results?

Heres a photo of the pair:
Front: Tangerine PB
Back: Checkerboard PB
http://i40.tinypic.com/59sugh.jpg

Thank you

[Rod]

Hi Val,

Yes you could inbreed the fry from this pair and achieve good clean fry. This pair already has some slight peppering and likely the fry will as well in varying amounts. Keep selecting the cleanest with the cleanest and the majority will become cleaner as time goes on.

Regarding inbreeding, inbreeding essentially aligns genes. This can be both a good and a bad thing. It tends to make strains more homogenous and desirable for many collectors, but any faults inadvertently bred into the line will quickly become a feature of the line as well. Inbreeding with strict selection should allow you many years of problem free discus culture :)

Regards

Rod

[valery]

Hi Val,

Yes you could inbreed the fry from this pair and achieve good clean fry. This pair already has some slight peppering and likely the fry will as well in varying amounts. Keep selecting the cleanest with the cleanest and the majority will become cleaner as time goes on.

Regarding inbreeding, inbreeding essentially aligns genes. This can be both a good and a bad thing. It tends to make strains more homogenous and desirable for many collectors, but any faults inadvertently bred into the line will quickly become a feature of the line as well. Inbreeding with strict selection should allow you many years of problem free discus culture :)

Regards

Rod

Thats great Rod. Thank you for the post! Very helpful for understanding the hobby that much more :)

[AirCapital]

hello there I do not currently have discus but have and will again but rather angelfish so the genetics interests me and it seems the discus genetics are not near as mapped out as angels. so here are my questions.

this may sound like a stubid question but is crossing fish of different strains frownd down upon? do most like to keep there strains'PURE:. or do you like veriaty in the spawn?
if one was wanting to either create a new strain or outcross a weak strain would you use a wild or domestic discus for the out cross ?
I have amillion more but dont want to flood my mind I just see such bright coloration on some and wonder if I was to cross this to a wild of say the brown veriety how hard would that be to get the color back with seletive inbreeding. on avarage how many generations does it take to get the bright coloration when crossed with wilds. thanks you quys Evan

[Eddie]

hello there I do not currently have discus but have and will again but rather angelfish so the genetics interests me and it seems the discus genetics are not near as mapped out as angels. so here are my questions.

this may sound like a stubid question but is crossing fish of different strains frownd down upon? do most like to keep there strains'PURE:. or do you like veriaty in the spawn?
if one was wanting to either create a new strain or outcross a weak strain would you use a wild or domestic discus for the out cross ?
I have amillion more but dont want to flood my mind I just see such bright coloration on some and wonder if I was to cross this to a wild of say the brown veriety how hard would that be to get the color back with seletive inbreeding. on avarage how many generations does it take to get the bright coloration when crossed with wilds. thanks you quys Evan

This would actually depend entirely on the strains used. Some strains are not compatible, especially when using pigeon bloods. I'd say crossing 2 different strains without a purpose may be frowned upon but if its for experience, then there is no harm in that IMO. But crossing incompatible strains and selling them is like fudging the gene pool. Generally people want to know what they are getting, not some half breed with unstable genetics. Reason being, is because the people will most likely end up breeding those fish and it will be quite a unpleasant surprise if the outcome is something totally different than what you were expecting. There has been so much studying of domestic hybrid genetics and some EXCELLENT resources are Andrew Soh's first and second book. Both these books are excellent with regard to genetics and possible outcomes.

I like the idea of injecting wild forms into domestics, the results can be something very interesting with selective breeding. This is where you may come up with something new IMO. To me, its like the wild card in UNO. ;)

Take care,

Eddie

[darkknight87]

That actually bothers me. I don't think I could ever destroy a discus..if it died of natural causes thats one thing..but I know I could never purposefully destroy some just because of how they looked.


No harm intended naked santa but your Av would scare my kids(I really dont know what to think of it). No bust on your poor fish(they cant help the enviorment you have shackled them with) but they look awfull. I would have destroyed them weeks ago and would never condiser them for breeding. Sorry bud... just the way I see it.

[AirCapital]

That actually bothers me. I don't think I could ever destroy a discus..if it died of natural causes thats one thing..but I know I could never purposefully destroy some just because of how they looked.

when breeding you must always cull anything that doest met the standard and the bar should be set very high if the parents are an 8 you want to chose nines never let the line go down.I have a sump pump with a brass impeler because when I flush my culls into the sump the plastics ones jusr didnt CUT IT. when you want to better a breed you cant have heart when it comes to selection that is why it must be done. sometimes yes it is hard because maybe that cull had something the others did as fair as good unusual traits but it will only weaking your project.:angel: it for the greater good thats all

[AirCapital]

This would actually depend entirely on the strains used. Some strains are not compatible, especially when using pigeon bloods. I'd say crossing 2 different strains without a purpose may be frowned upon but if its for experience, then there is no harm in that IMO. But crossing incompatible strains and selling them is like fudging the gene pool. Generally people want to know what they are getting, not some half breed with unstable genetics. Reason being, is because the people will most likely end up breeding those fish and it will be quite a unpleasant surprise if the outcome is something totally different than what you were expecting. There has been so much studying of domestic hybrid genetics and some EXCELLENT resources are Andrew Soh's first and second book. Both these books are excellent with regard to genetics and possible outcomes.

I like the idea of injecting wild forms into domestics, the results can be something very interesting with selective breeding. This is where you may come up with something new IMO. To me, its like the wild card in UNO. ;)

Take care,

Eddie
eddie, thank you fro the great relpl and info. I know hwta you meen about hidden genes some of my fish I just dont cross with others because it would be a big let down for someone to get a halfblack angel that had a hidden smokey gene and find out they will have a nightmare to deal with when they breed them because they look so similiar but are so different.
eddie I believe your from okinawa I was stationed there for yr in the Marine Corps great place I did alot of cleaning and sweating there so yea...lol

[valery]

Hello again Rod,

I was wondering at which point PB fry develop their PB characteristics?? The fry are now 13 days old, and there are no red eyes visible. The eyes are white, the bodies are white, and are just developing the white pattern from the parents.

[Rod]

Hi Val, Another few weeks and the eye color will be more obvious, also the body color should be more yellow, or orange/red if you feed color foods. Have you got a pic of the fry?

Rod:)

[valery]

Hi Val, Another few weeks and the eye color will be more obvious, also the body color should be more yellow, or orange/red if you feed color foods. Have you got a pic of the fry?

Rod:)

Thank you for the reply Rod. Today I actually started to see some orangy/red appear on the top and bottom fins. I guess the color will fill in from the fins?? here are some pics of them from 2 days ago. The body is still just as white :)

http://i44.tinypic.com/2qibtys.jpg

http://i40.tinypic.com/2ppn5lh.jpg

http://i43.tinypic.com/zkopxj.jpg

[Rod]

Hi val,

I wouldn't worry about the color too much at this stage, the fry look very healthy and happy. You will find over the coming weeks there will significent changes to the way they look. The white body color is actually base color rather than pattern color, the redish color you are noticing in the fins will gradually spread through the body. Normally from about 4 weeks pattern will start to develop, generally in the fins and head first and gradually through the body (depending on strain). Some strains take 12 months or so before full color and pattern is finalized. Well done with these fry, they really do look good. :)

Rod

[Iggy]

Hi folks...relative newbie here as far as discus breeding goes. I have been trying to find some info on discus genetics but so far it seems pretty sparse (trade secrets belonging to the Eastern mass production farms, from what I have been told )...

ANyhow...I have a SantaRem from Hans Discus that has paired up with a blue snakeskin of unkown origen, and am wondering what the fry will look like...this is the first batch of fry that they have raised beyond free-swimming(probably because I kept the lights on) and I separated them at 3 weeks into a grow-out tank.

I gather the wild type is more dominant...so would most of these fry show up as Santa Rems? or will I get a mix?

[valery]

Hi val,

I wouldn't worry about the color too much at this stage, the fry look very healthy and happy. You will find over the coming weeks there will significent changes to the way they look. The white body color is actually base color rather than pattern color, the redish color you are noticing in the fins will gradually spread through the body. Normally from about 4 weeks pattern will start to develop, generally in the fins and head first and gradually through the body (depending on strain). Some strains take 12 months or so before full color and pattern is finalized. Well done with these fry, they really do look good. :)

Rod

Thanks very much Rod. The red color in the fins is becoming a little more and more nitoceable. Quite amazing to see them grow. :)

[Rod]

Hi folks...relative newbie here as far as discus breeding goes. I have been trying to find some info on discus genetics but so far it seems pretty sparse (trade secrets belonging to the Eastern mass production farms, from what I have been told )...

ANyhow...I have a SantaRem from Hans Discus that has paired up with a blue snakeskin of unkown origen, and am wondering what the fry will look like...this is the first batch of fry that they have raised beyond free-swimming(probably because I kept the lights on) and I separated them at 3 weeks into a grow-out tank.

I gather the wild type is more dominant...so would most of these fry show up as Santa Rems? or will I get a mix?

Hi iggy, you are pretty close regarding color, many will indeed look like santarems and some will have more blue and some may even develop a full blue pattern. But you have one mutant gene to consider, the snakeskin is a mutation controlled by a heterozygous dominant gene. Results with crossing will likely produce from 10% to 50% snakeskin babies. You will get santarems colored snakeskin and blue colored snakeskins. Good luck with the fry. Rod:)

[Iggy]

Thanks Rod!

What would be the allelles for doing a Punnet square for this cross? Or is there too much unknown? For example, SR for Santa Rem, SS for snakeskin...(scratching head)?

[Rod]

The allele symbols i would use for the punnett square on this cross would be WW & WS. W meaning wild type, S referring to the heterozygous snakeskin gene.

Rod:)

[Iggy]

So, I would then have a WW x WS, giving me 50% WW and 50% WS:

W

[Iggy]

*aaargh* pressed the wrong button LOL

Where was I? Oh yeah:


W S
W WW WS

W WW WS

[Rod]

Yes, should be 50% heterozygous snakeskins Iggy. % produced does vary quite a bit in practise however.

[Iggy]

The fry are running about 1/2" to 6/8" long...4 weeks old...water temp is 82-85*F, 50% water change every day, fed 3x daily with "Better than Brine"(from "UncleRick" on AquaBid)...most show evidence of the stress bars, and some have a bit of metallic blue/green sheen to them, some lighter, others darker...

Is their size OK for 1 month olds, or should they be bigger?

[mmorris]

Tail included? 1/2 inch, tail included, is pretty small. Mine are an inch + at a month. If you are concerned, you might want to post pics. I feed six or so times a day with bbs, bh, flake, chopped white worms, ground fdbw, etc.

[rdlee]

Very interesting topic. I bred this pair 1.5 year ago.

http://i647.photobucket.com/albums/uu199/rdlee100/IMG_0048.jpg

Now some of their offspring are 6".

http://i647.photobucket.com/albums/uu199/rdlee100/IMG_0002-3.jpg

My question is if I continue inbreeding these offspring, what will be the best ones I can get? possible Albino??? :p

[Eddie]

No, no albinos. Was the entire batch pigeons or did you have some SS that were culled?

Disregard LOL, the pigeon gene is dominant so you couldn't have had any SS, had a brain fart. LOL


Eddie

[rdlee]

No, no albinos. Was the entire batch pigeons or did you have some SS that were culled?


Eddie

They are all PB. I didn't cull any and sold most of them. I noticed some no checkboard pattern. (see three on the right) They look like SS but no bars and with red eyes too.

[Eddie]

They are all PB. I didn't cull any and sold most of them. I noticed some no checkboard pattern. (see three on the right) They look like SS but no bars and with red eyes too.


LOL, I figured that in between your post, all pigeons since it is the dominant gene. Although interesting that the ones you are pointing out are Pigeon Snakes. Very nice fish and arent these the ones you artificially raised?

Eddie

[rdlee]

LOL, I figured that in between your post, all pigeons since it is the dominant gene. Although interesting that the ones you are pointing out are Pigeon Snakes. Very nice fish and arent these the ones you artificially raised?

Eddie

Yes, Eddie. I raised them in a low tech planted tank. Now I transfer them to a 75 g with white substrate, much much less peppering. Some of them can hardly be noticed.

[rdlee]

No, no albinos. Was the entire batch pigeons or did you have some SS that were culled?

Disregard LOL, the pigeon gene is dominant so you couldn't have had any SS, had a brain fart. LOL


Eddie

So there are only these possibilities for me to get Albinos.

1. Keep inbreeding and Wait for genetic mutations occur. or
2. Exposing the eggs to heavy metal.

hahah, That is hard. :D

3. Just get a Albino breeding pair.

[Eddie]

So there are only these possibilities for me to get Albinos.

1. Keep inbreeding and Wait for genetic mutations occur. or
2. Exposing the eggs to heavy metal.

hahah, That is hard. :D

3. Just get a Albino breeding pair.

LOL, item 3 is the only way IMO. Or get some Albino Intermediates.

[Rod]

Very interesting topic. I bred this pair 1.5 year ago.

http://i647.photobucket.com/albums/uu199/rdlee100/IMG_0048.jpg

Now some of their offspring are 6".

http://i647.photobucket.com/albums/uu199/rdlee100/IMG_0002-3.jpg

My question is if I continue inbreeding these offspring, what will be the best ones I can get? possible Albino??? :p

No albinos as Eddie said. They will produce lots more pigeons, and also some turquoise. If you select snakeskin pigeons to breed with you will get pigeons, pigeon snakeskin, turquoise and snakeskins as well. Great looking group, well done. :)


No, no albinos. Was the entire batch pigeons or did you have some SS that were culled?

Disregard LOL, the pigeon gene is dominant so you couldn't have had any SS, had a brain fart. LOL


Eddie

Eddie, a pigeon can still be a snakeskin and indeed i can see at least 2 pigeon snakes in that group. The gene that is mutated to produce pigeons is not the same gene that is mutated to produce snakeskins, so it is entirely possible to be both a pigeon and a snakeskin. Incidently the snakeskin is also a dominant. Neither one dominates over the other, this is not how genes work. They become both types.

HTH

Rod

[Eddie]

Thanks for the breakdown Rod. Still trying to learn about genetics. ;)


Take care,

Eddie

[Rod]

Hey no worries Eddie,

Dominant genes can be homozygous like the parent pigeon to this group. rdlee said all the fry were pigeons, so what this means from an inheritence point of view is the 2 alleles on the locus of the chromosome where the pigeon gene is located, they are both mutated. Where you cross with a homozygote animal all the progeny will become mutants because when you breed, 1 allele from each gene is passed to the fry from each parent. This is a random occurence, it could be either of the 2 allels. But since both alleles are pigeon, the result is all the fry will inherit the pigeon gene.
In this case a non pigeon was used to breed with the pigeon homozygote, so what happens here is a pigeon allele is inherited by all the fry as i discussed above, but importantly a normal allele is inherited on the other side of this particular gene. This is termed heterozygote. Because the pigeon is a dominant gene, it will be expressed. (in the case of recessives it would hide, that in a nutshell is what differenciates dominants and recessives. the albino is a great example of a recessive, it only shows where both alleles are albinos. Where only 1 allele is an albino such as in a cross it will completely hide). Have a look at this link from wiki, it explains it all much better than i can. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zygosity

[Aries]

Hi Rod,

First, thanks for your valuable information about Discus genetics and breeding. I'm sure it helps much for all discus enthusiastic.

Could you give me information to create clean pigeon base discus (such as Pigeon Blood, Pigeon Snakeskin, Red Melon, Marlboro, etc) since most of them have peppering sign, especially in the tail & fins.

FYI, I have tried in-breed a pair of Pigeon Snakeskin (sibling) to get better clean fry, but the result is not like what i expected.

Kindly waiting for your reply.

Cheers,
Aries

[Rod]

Hi Aries,

Firstly, thankyou for your kind words. I certainly do hope other breeders find the information useful.

My experience with pigeon bloods and peppering sounds much like your experience. No matter what i have tried and no matter how pepper free the body, i still get some black on the edge of the dorsal and anal fin, and a black tail. It seems the black pigment in these areas is very difficult to remove by selective breeding. what we need is a genetic mutation to be found where the black pigment is removed. Perhaps that is why many professional breeders are using the albino gene with the various strains to create pepper free discus. I have an albino red pigeon male, he is beautiful and pepper free, and is my largest albino discus. The strength of the pigeon blood is how easy they are to keep and the size they grow and this doesn't seem to be affected by the albino gene. My golden and brown based albinos do not have the same size or growth rate. Sorry i cannot be more helpful here, but i think the only other way is selective breeding. The pigeon blood has been around for 20 years or so now, and they are much much cleaner these days than in the beginning, but still not perfect....maybe another 20 years?

Rod:)

[rdlee]

No albinos as Eddie said. They will produce lots more pigeons, and also some turquoise. If you select snakeskin pigeons to breed with you will get pigeons, pigeon snakeskin, turquoise and snakeskins as well. Great looking group, well done. :)


Rod

Thank you very much for your info.

[mmorris]

Do red covers breed true? I asked the person I got them from but he didn't respond. My pair of rc's are on their first batch and they are almost 1 1/2 weeks old. Most of the fry have dark bars and look like turq fry. I assume, since rc's are barred, that those are the rc's. About 25% are white and translucent and appear to be barless. I'm afraid to hope the parents are intermediates. The fry are too small and young to tell if the eyes are grape. I tried to get a close-up flash photo but decided after one or two poor shots that close-up flash probably wasn't a good idea at this age.

[kaceyo]

That's interesting Martha. Being a brown based strain you would think that they would breed relativly true with some alanquer throwbacks. Why would there be any RT in the mix?

[mmorris]

I don't expect turqs; I said they looked like turq fry as a way of describing them to people. Not the best way, I suppose, but I've never seen red cover fry before. Do they look like turqs? Or, are they the white ones? I assumed the former. Hope that makes sense. :)

[kaceyo]

Sorry, I misunderstood. They probably would look like turqs before any color develops. Or like any other nine bar wild form.
I'd love to see a pic of the lighter colored ones when you get a chance. Maybe you have a new mutation there.;)

[mmorris]

LOL I bet not. I think it would be pretty cool to have two variations that I can differentiate so young, but albinos would put me over the moon. I'm sure that surprises you. :D There is no difference in growth rate, attachment behavior...nothing.

[chaoslite]

I have two blue turquoise that have paired up. If the offspring get past the wriggler stage will they be blue turquoise?

Mishka

[mmorris]

I took a couple of pics. I hope they are clear enough to see the difference.

[kaceyo]

Easily clear enough. Could you see a difference when they were wrigglers? I'm thinking either albino's or pigeons.

[mmorris]

I didn't notice when they were wrigglers, and the parents were quite expert at keeping them out of view until a few days ago. Why would there be pb in the genetic line? Are goldens barred? I thought not but I don't know...it would make more sense to me if there was golden in the line than pb...

[kitykatfunkiehat]

Oh my god, does this thread count towards a science credit?!

[mmorris]

LOL Only if you correctly guess what the barless fry are.

[kitykatfunkiehat]

Not a chance...but seriously. I wish I could print this out and hand it to a counselor.

[kaceyo]

I didn't notice when they were wrigglers, and the parents were quite expert at keeping them out of view until a few days ago. Why would there be pb in the genetic line? Are goldens barred? I thought not but I don't know...it would make more sense to me if there was golden in the line than pb...

There could be PB in the line to bring out a brighter, more full body red. Not enough to over do the RC traits, but to bring out the red a bit.
Goldens don't have bars, at least they're not supposed to.

[Rod]

i'm guessing golden Matha, the percentages are right and the growth rate is the same as the browns. Albinos as you know are normally smaller, even from intermediate pairs, but i wouldn't completely rule it out.
No chance of pigeons Kacey, pigeon gene doesn't hide as it is a dominent gene. Only recessives hide.

[mmorris]

Thanks Rod. :)

[Rod]

Be interesting to see what color they develop as they grow, being from red cover maybe they will look like rgd's.

[mmorris]

I suppose I ought to grow some out but I'm in a bit of a space crisis here. :( I will be growing out some red covers so perhaps I'll keep a few of the goldens for a bit.

[kaceyo]

Thanks for the info Rod.
I'd have to raise the best few, just out of curiosity. I love getting fry that can't be ID'd and don't look like their siblings/parents.

[Rod]

I suppose I ought to grow some out but I'm in a bit of a space crisis here. :( I will be growing out some red covers so perhaps I'll keep a few of the goldens for a bit.

Be worthwhile to keep a few Matha. Quite a lot of the red cover siblings will be carriers, or you could use either parent to breed with the golden, as they are proven carriers. If you bred them as golden over red cover (golden carrier) you will get 50/50 in the fry. And you can still select for best red color, best shape etc to improve both lines at once. More bang for the buck :D


Thanks for the info Rod.
I'd have to raise the best few, just out of curiosity. I love getting fry that can't be ID'd and don't look like their siblings/parents. Me too :D

[mmorris]

If you bred them as golden over red cover (golden carrier) you will get 50/50 in the fry. And you can still select for best red color, best shape etc to improve both lines at once. More bang for the buck :D

D

I never see just 'goldens' any more; they seem to be 'golden this' and 'golden that'. Would you expect these fry to be simply 'golden', or 'golden this or that?' I read that the original goldens were weak, and so they tended to be used for crossing. I don't know if that is the case, or if 'golden this or that' has more market value.

[Rod]

I never see just 'goldens' any more; they seem to be 'golden this' and 'golden that'. Would you expect these fry to be simply 'golden', or 'golden this or that?' I read that the original goldens were weak, and so they tended to be used for crossing. I don't know if that is the case, or if 'golden this or that' has more market value.

Well they will be solid colored golden i expect, and being bred from red cover should be solid red goldens. My thoughts on this is the red covers you have are likely throwbacks from breeding experiments trying to make red goldens. Some breeder has crossed his red golden with solid red normal discus to improve the red color or some other feature. In my own case i use the golden for solid red ring eye color, nothing beats a golden for eye color imo. My albino alenquers had very very poor eye color, as did many of the original albinos. By crossing with the golden within 2 generation, pure red eyes will be found among the fry.

As for any problems this golden gene can impart on the fry, i don't see any negative affects like slow growth, weak fry, small spawns or any of the other problems we have read about. Perhaps in the beginning this was true, i don't know, but now i think those thoughts are very much outdated.

Market value, well they are not worth any more, similar priced from what i see in asia. Most strains no longer have the name golden in them, even if they are clearly of golden origins.

[mmorris]

Lots to think about! I've never had a pair throw fry that I don't know what they will look like, relatively. I have no idea what a red golden looks like. Any clues? Striations? Both red cover parents have amber eyes but a sibling has red. I was told that red is dominant over amber. Is this true? It doesn't make sense if I can expect the goldens to have red eyes. What could I cross with the red covers to bring out the red a bit more? One is really quite gold (surprise surprise) and the other is quite brownish.

[Rod]

The only impact the golden gene makes will be on the base color. Face striations etc will be no more prevalent among the goldens than among the normals. I have attached a pic of what a red golden looks like, this particular version has the common name of flamingo.

But if your pair is not so red, more golden brown, then likely the fry will also be more golden brown, and the golden gene ones more yellow to orangish. This may sound a little contradictory, but do not think of the golden gene as a golden colored fish. Indeed many golden gene fish have a yellowish base, but many more do not. The original golden gene mutation had a beige base but has been selectivly bred to come in many varieties many of which have no or little golden color at all. This is the problem with common names, personally i'd like to see a code given to different gene mutations rather than a silly common name. We could say for arguments sake, this fish has a gd4 mutation which i think would be far less confusing.

Red eye color is dominent?? I don't think eye color in discus is controlled in the normal mendal's genetics fashion. If this were the case then it would be extremly easy to manipulate the eye color. Yet how rare are really good eyes in modern strains? Blue diamonds and thier kind, leopards and leopard snakeskins and thier kind, really good red eyes are very hard to come by, particularly in mature specimens. If your pair are throwing red eye specimens then i would definatly put them aside for further breeding if they are otherwise quality specimens. But i don't think it is as easy as crunching the numbers in a punnett square to get future red eye results.

If you want redder fish, then you will need to either selectively breed for red color, or buy redder fish and cross into your line. Red color is built up by accumulation, breed the reddest with the reddest and keep selecting each generation the reddest. Overall the whole line will improve in red color. Again i don't think a punnett square is of much use here.

HTH

Rod

[mmorris]

Thanks for your thoughts, Rod. I'm pleased to hear my understanding of eye color was misinformed. I certainly think these red covers are worth working with, and I'm very curious to see what the goldens will turn out like. Love the flamingo! I haven't been adding any red enhancers to the bh because I have blues and albinos but perhaps I'll add some and set it aside for these.

[Rod]

I don't add any enhancers to my beefheart mix either. For the red fish, browns and turk tanks i add tetra color bits to the diet along with all the other foods.

[mmorris]

I feed tetra bits but sporadically. I felt a bit foolish admiting that I don't add color enhancers after commenting on color...nice to know you don't as well.

[Rod]

I used to add all kinds of foods for color, but since i import yellows and i don't want to make extra food specifically for them, i deleted it all. Since i have done so i have seen no noticeable drop off in color or health. Just the tetra bits every 2nd day for the large fish and once a day for the growing ones seems to maintain great colors.

[mmorris]

I used to add all kinds of foods for color, but since i import yellows and i don't want to make extra food specifically for them, i deleted it all. Since i have done so i have seen no noticeable drop off in color or health. Just the tetra bits every 2nd day for the large fish and once a day for the growing ones seems to maintain great colors.

A good plan for me to follow. :)

[mmorris]

Does it look like a golden? Am I seeing pepper? :confused: I swear I can see faint bars though.

[Eddie]

Does it look like a golden? Am I seeing pepper? :confused: I swear I can see faint bars though.


It looks pigeon based, like a Red Melon fry.

[Rod]

Does it look like a golden? Am I seeing pepper? :confused: I swear I can see faint bars though.

I can see black pigments, but i can't see pepper as in pigeon blood pepper. None on the nose or the caudal peduncle/caudal base. Brown based, golden based and pigeon based all have black pigments on them and it is entirely possible for them all to express it in the places we can see it like the lips, fin rays etc. Do all the golden based ones look like this? With the pigeon based gene we are likely to see much variation in the expression of black pigments, some will have quite heavy expression in area's while some won't, whereas with golden based they will be very similar to each other, if not virtually identical within the one particular type. The faint bars do point towards a golden i believe.

[mmorris]

I can see black pigments, but i can't see pepper as in pigeon blood pepper. None on the nose or the caudal peduncle/caudal base. Brown based, golden based and pigeon based all have black pigments on them and it is entirely possible for them all to express it in the places we can see it like the lips, fin rays etc. Do all the golden based ones look like this? With the pigeon based gene we are likely to see much variation in the expression of black pigments, some will have quite heavy expression in area's while some won't, whereas with golden based they will be very similar to each other, if not virtually identical within the one particular type. The faint bars do point towards a golden i believe.

Thanks Rod. I didn't think they were pb, particularly considering what appears to be very faint bars. Yes, I think most, if not all, have this pigment, particularly on the lips and on the top of the head.

[Melissa]

I cant believe... I just read this entire thread,...... In one sitting.

My eyes hurt....

Any update Martha? I'm very interested to find out what those golden babes turned out like!

[mmorris]

Wow! One reading! The golden ones are slow growers, although one recently shot ahead. Any ideas now, Rod? Perhaps it is still too early to tell because their colour hasn't changed much.

[Melissa]

I really like the look of it Martha!! Very pretty :-D

Its like an Orange Cover... or a Tangerine Cover! lol It looks like its getting that lovely halo and everything. Very nice looking fish IMO.

[mmorris]

Thanks! Tangerine had crossed my mind but then they are not being fed any color enhancers to bring out the red.

[Rod]

Wow! One reading! The golden ones are slow growers, although one recently shot ahead. Any ideas now, Rod? Perhaps it is still too early to tell because their colour hasn't changed much.

Hi Martha, They do look golden based. Interesting color, be great to see as they mature more. Thanks for the update.

Rod

[Keith Perkins]

Since my male marlboro decided to jump out of the tank yesterday and not be found until he had already gone stiff I have the opportunity to upgrade my breeding stock. I really like the looks of san merahs, but was wondering what their offspring would be. I seem to remember it's something different than san merah, or at least partially so.

Keith

[Rod]

Since my male marlboro decided to jump out of the tank yesterday and not be found until he had already gone stiff I have the opportunity to upgrade my breeding stock. I really like the looks of san merahs, but was wondering what their offspring would be. I seem to remember it's something different than san merah, or at least partially so.

Keith

Hi keith,

I am wondering about your question...do you mean replace the male marlbro with a san merah (ie sans x marlbro) or do you mean a completely new pair of sans and you were wondering if they breed true?

Sorry to hear about the jumper, always a sad lose.

Rod :)

[Larry Bugg]

Good luck finding San Merahs. I searched the last couple months and could not locate any. Finally gave up. Both Kenny and Mike Beals said they haven't seen any available for some time now.

[kaceyo]

I'd guess their gold based cousins are now taking up the niches once filled by San Merah's, Virgin Red's and Fuji Reds (etc).

[Keith Perkins]

Hi keith,

I am wondering about your question...do you mean replace the male marlbro with a san merah (ie sans x marlbro) or do you mean a completely new pair of sans and you were wondering if they breed true?

Sorry to hear about the jumper, always a sad lose.

Rod :)

Talking about getting a whole new pair of San Merahs if I can find them.

[Keith Perkins]

bump

[Rod]

I'd guess their gold based cousins are now taking up the niches once filled by San Merah's, Virgin Red's and Fuji Reds (etc).

Goldens not so much Kacey, they don't seem to be commonly available at least not from Jeffrey Yang. Certainly not rare, but not as easy to get as a few years ago. Albino's however, the export lists can be 1/3rd albinos these days.


Good luck finding San Merahs. I searched the last couple months and could not locate any. Finally gave up. Both Kenny and Mike Beals said they haven't seen any available for some time now.

I import from the same guy as Mike, the san merahs have not been available lately though Mike had Virgin reds recently i think. They would have made a good 2nd choice, quite similar discus.


Talking about getting a whole new pair of San Merahs if I can find them.

Hi Keith,

Sorry for the delay in replying, been hectic here the last few days.

Sans breed more or less true, i have a pair that i breed from now and again and the babies are quite consistent. Probably the main flaw is a few develop a blue sheen on the face from each spawn, which is usual for this and closely related types.

Rod

[kaceyo]

Goldens not so much Kacey, they don't seem to be commonly available at least not from Jeffrey Yang. Certainly not rare, but not as easy to get as a few years ago. Albino's however, the export lists can be 1/3rd albinos these days.


Rod

Hi Rod,
I was refering to the gold based solid red discus such as RGD's. I see alot of red fish that are crossed with gold based (RGD's, 3r2's etc) reds and given a designer name but very few of the old brown based red's like San Merah's and Virgin Reds.

[Rod]

Hi Rod,
I was refering to the gold based solid red discus such as RGD's. I see alot of red fish that are crossed with gold based (RGD's, 3r2's etc) reds and given a designer name but very few of the old brown based red's like San Merah's and Virgin Reds.

So was i Kacey, i was referring to 'all' golden based fish. From my experience, they are not so common today as a few years ago. I can only go by what Fish Trade Zone is supplying, my other general tropical fish suppliers almost never have golden anything or albino for that matter. Just the turks, pigeons etc., but i never buy discus from these suppliers.

Rod:)

[Keith Perkins]

Rod, something tells me shipping San Merahs from Australia might be a bit tough. :) Guess I'll just have to see what happens with availability on a pair. And to think I saw a pair 2 months ago and decided to pass on them thinking I could find a nicer pair. So far that's worked out about as well as my fantasy football did.

[mmorris]

There must have been something about that pair that you didn't care for if you passed them up to continue looking for a nicer pair. It was probably a wise thing to do. It takes time to find a nice pair of a specific color. In the meantime, you might want to keep your eyes open for juvies too.

[Rod]

Rod, something tells me shipping San Merahs from Australia might be a bit tough. :) Guess I'll just have to see what happens with availability on a pair. And to think I saw a pair 2 months ago and decided to pass on them thinking I could find a nicer pair. So far that's worked out about as well as my fantasy football did.

Well, like Martha said, there must have been something about them you didn't like. I would have passed too. Be patient, really good ones will eventually surface. :)


There must have been something about that pair that you didn't care for if you passed them up to continue looking for a nicer pair. It was probably a wise thing to do. It takes time to find a nice pair of a specific color. In the meantime, you might want to keep your eyes open for juvies too.

I like Juvies too, you can buy 10 for the price of an adult pair. And its a lot of fun watching them grow and become more beautiful with age.

[Keith Perkins]

Good thoughts, it's been a bit since I've bought juvies to grow them out. I'll have to keep my eye out for some.

[mmorris]

Gorgeous fish, Rod. :)

[gwrace]

So I have three pairs from Kenny that have decided to cohabitate. I was wondering what kind of off spring I can expect from these pairings. The first are two high back turqs so no questions there. The 2nd pair is a red checkerboard and blue diamond. The 3rd pair is a red checkerboard and blue snakeskin.

Thanks!

[Rod]

So I have three pairs from Kenny that have decided to cohabitate. I was wondering what kind of off spring I can expect from these pairings. The first are two high back turqs so no questions there. The 2nd pair is a red checkerboard and blue diamond. The 3rd pair is a red checkerboard and blue snakeskin.

Thanks!

2nd pair will be all/mostly pigeons with a large variation in the pattern and colors. Any non pigeons will be turquoise looking.

3rd pair, the same as 2nd pair except you will also see pigeon snakeskins and possibly some blue snakeskins along with the rest.

Most likely the fry will have increased pepper and black coloring compared to the pigeon parent.

Rod

[gwrace]

2nd pair will be all/mostly pigeons with a large variation in the pattern and colors. Any non pigeons will be turquoise looking.

3rd pair, the same as 2nd pair except you will also see pigeon snakeskins and possibly some blue snakeskins along with the rest.

Most likely the fry will have increased pepper and black coloring compared to the pigeon parent.

Rod


Thank you Rod. Wigglers showed up this morning from the checkerboard-blue diamond cross. Now the fun begins again...:)

[Rod]

Nice one gw, good luck with the fry :)

[mmorris]

Do cobalts breed true? Should I expect some turqs in the batch? If so, is it possible to tell the turqs from the cobalts at an early age - say, 2 inches?

[Rod]

Do cobalts breed true? Should I expect some turqs in the batch? If so, is it possible to tell the turqs from the cobalts at an early age - say, 2 inches?

Hi Martha,


Blue color in cobalts is controlled by epistatic inheritance [ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epistasis ] and is very difficult to control. It takes many generations to align these genes and is what breeders mean when they 'purify' a strain. To answer your question Martha, some cobalts breed pretty true, others not so much. Some strains only the male will become solid, it really varies a lot between types. I don't think you can tell with very young 2" discus.

Rod:)

[mmorris]

Thanks for that, Rod. Do you know the cobalt's genetic background and what gene is modifying what? I knew that the striations on the body did not always disappear. Is that what you are referring to? If the striations do not disappear, are they not still cobalts? Or are you talking about the possible appearance of other strains entirely, like turqs and blue diamonds?

[Rod]

Do you know the cobalt's genetic background and what gene is modifying what?

No genetic mutation Martha, not in the sense of a single dominant or recessive gene anyway. It is controlled by quantatative traits, many genes interacting with each other on different loci. Basically with this type (and other "wild" forms like red turks, rsg etc etc) it is a matter of accumulation of genes that express lots of blue. Nature gave us this information. You keep "steering" the wild genes towards blueness, from each generation you would choose the bluest, and little by little more of the progeny will be this blueness. A good analogy would be evolution by natural selection EXCEPT we are the selectors instead of nature.


I knew that the striations on the body did not always disappear. Is that what you are referring to? If the striations do not disappear, are they not still cobalts?

I have always considered the cobalt as a solid pattern with iridescent blue color. A solid colored version of brilliant blue. But there are no rules with discus classification and i think different keepers would have different definitions for this. I would still consider them as cobalts, but of a lower grading. A good strain is a homogenous strain and those strains that show a mixture of forms are not at fixation and not really a true strain. When the type is not at fixation it is common to have reversion towards a more wild type. In this case some may look more like brilliant blues and some may even look like normal blue types without the iridescence. ie blue turk.


Or are you talking about the possible appearance of other strains entirely, like turqs and blue diamonds?

Turqs are possible as discussed above, but not blue diamonds. Bd's, contrary to popular opinion, are not the result of breeding for blue color per se. They are a true mutation controlled by a single gene and are recessive. This makes them utterly different, and the fact they were originally developed from cobalt types does not make this statement false. Some breeders have crossed bd's with cobalt types, and owing to the recessive nature of the gene it is possible to produce bd's from cobalts, but genetically they are very different. They will not show up in a spawn of cobalts that are at fixation.

Hope that helps Martha, and i explained myself adequately.

Rod

[mmorris]

Good stuff, Rod. I would think that since Cobalts have been around for so long, they would be a fixed strain by now. As I understand you, the likelihood of my pair producing mostly cobalts with solid bodies and iridescent blue coloring depends on whether the pair come from a relatively fixed lineage, and not all cobalt lines are that far along. Is that right?

[Rod]

Good stuff, Rod. I would think that since Cobalts have been around for so long, they would be a fixed strain by now. As I understand you, the likelihood of my pair producing mostly cobalts with solid bodies and iridescent blue coloring depends on whether the pair come from a relatively fixed lineage, and not all cobalt lines are that far along. Is that right?

Yes, spot on Martha. :)

When i first started with discus the cobalt was one of the must have strains. They were carefully bred by the top breeders and relative to todays strains, i believe were of a higher quality. Not to say there are not good strains about today, but certainly less interest is shown by the top breeders and i feel there are many strains that have reverted somewhat.

[mmorris]

Pity that. The cobalt blue is beautiful!

[xoxpebblesxox]

to all you clever people who are in the know about Discus breeding.

I have had 3 Discus for about 5 months now. I only keep them because i think they are gorgeous! I had no intention of breeding them, they all have fantastic colours, but the are all a little peppered. I have one that i know as a Red Map although no one seems to know what i mean by that on here! i have a yellow diamond and a red melon.

the last few weeks the map and the melon have started laying eggs on my filter. as it is a community tank all the other little fish i have soon gobbled up the eggs.

last night i caught the discus laying their eggs so i separated them off from the rest of the tank. they seem to be doing well, although i know nothing about it personally but i thought they at least deserve a fighting chance at raising their babies!

anyone my big question is... when you mix a red melon with a red map what colours are you likely to get? i realise that as i dont have really high quality fish they are not going to be high quality fry... but it would be nice to know if anyone knows.... i have trawled the net for hours in search of an answer.... still no further forward! x

[Rod]

Hi Pebbles,

A red map is just a variation of a checkerboard style/striated pigeon blood, from memory an Indonesian strain. There was a local importer in my city bringing them in a few years ago, so i have seen plenty of them. Crossing with a red melon which is also a pigeon blood strain, you will get all or almost all pigeon bloods depending on how the gene is being carried by your adults. If you get non pigeons, they will look like typical brown based crosses. The other gene you have to consider is the gene which controls the solid pattern of your melon. This is a co-dominant gene so you will likely get 25 to 50 percent with a solid pattern like your red melon. The rest will be highly variable in terms of pattern and black peppering. Good luck :)

[Silver]

Wow it took me long time to read most of the postings here... but I do have one question, my pair laid eggs yesterday and its their first time so I was wondering what color of the fry would it be? here is a picture..... Thanks...

http://i259.photobucket.com/albums/hh300/Doming275/blue%20snakesking%20red%20torquesa/1.jpg

[xoxpebblesxox]

Hi Pebbles,

A red map is just a variation of a checkerboard style/striated pigeon blood, from memory an Indonesian strain. There was a local importer in my city bringing them in a few years ago, so i have seen plenty of them. Crossing with a red melon which is also a pigeon blood strain, you will get all or almost all pigeon bloods depending on how the gene is being carried by your adults. If you get non pigeons, they will look like typical brown based crosses. The other gene you have to consider is the gene which controls the solid pattern of your melon. This is a co-dominant gene so you will likely get 25 to 50 percent with a solid pattern like your red melon. The rest will be highly variable in terms of pattern and black peppering. Good luck :)

Hi Rod

Thanks so much for the reply! massive help! i have to admit though I am very excited at the thought of even one of them growing up! I also realise that they are more than likely to turn out as some sort of "mongrel", but seeing as I am not in it for money or anything all I care about is that they are happy and healthy! fingers crossed that I do get a stunner of a fish though! I will try to keep everyone updated and hopefully I will learn a thing or 2 about discus at the same time.

thanks so much for the help

Pebs xx

[willyhunt]

Hi everybody, as with many others i have read the entire thread and my minds now a blurr. I'm down in New Zealand and am keen to try to breed some of my Discus with an end result, through a few generations, to come up with Albino Blue Diamonds.
We never see them down here but I have seen a few pic's of them on this forum and they have really taken my fancy.
In one of Andrew Soh's books he talks about how to do this and I think he started with an Albino Alenquer & a Blue Diamond.

I have a Blue Diamond (male) and an Albino Leopard (female) who are keen on each other. Can anyone tell me please, if I start by substituting the Albino Alenquer with my Albino Leopard after a few generations will I eventually end up with a few Albino Blue Diamonds?

Cheers and thanks in anticipation.

[Rod]

I have a Blue Diamond (male) and an Albino Leopard (female) who are keen on each other. Can anyone tell me please, if I start by substituting the Albino Alenquer with my Albino Leopard after a few generations will I eventually end up with a few Albino Blue Diamonds?

Yes, you will receive some abd's and it will occur in the 2nd generation, 3rd generation and you can make both the albino and blue diamond gene homozygous. But it will make no difference if you substitute the albino alenquer with the albino lep. Your intent is to transfer the bd pattern onto an albino, not hold onto the alenquer, nor the leopard pattern. So for this purpose, it matters not what the albino is, as you will be removing it anyway. What sexes each are will also make no difference. Good luck!

[willyhunt]

I thought as much, thanks for the confirmation Rod. Now here's hoping I get a few successful spawns.

Cheers

[mohamed toka]

i want Discus Genetics LAB(map) for all collors with Pictures of her

[ajvdiscus]

i want Discus Genetics LAB(map) for all collors with Pictures of her ???????????

[ajvdiscus]

Ok here we go, i have a white and gold female and a white and red male that started fooling around with each other :)) . I , never had couples that werent from the same stripe.

Am i going to have a mix between the 2 ? wil it be possible to have some fry that are al l3 colors ? these os course in F2..

[Rod]

Ok here we go, i have a white and gold female and a white and red male that started fooling around with each other :))

Do you have photos of these discus, or a name at least, to try and figure out the genes involved? White, gold and red could mean anything in discus terminology.

[Kanari_Discus]

Hi Everybody, I'm a beginer discus breeder from Indonesia.
I'd like to share my litle experiences with you all.

[Kanari_Discus]

Does anybody knew Yelow-white discus bred from?

[Kanari_Discus]

I wonder what would come from this pair? 74191

[vicdiscus]

The yellow -white discus.. I believe the Snowflake white or White diamond etc no pigeon blood gene crossed with Yellow strain If the yellow strain is no pigeon blood gene or pigeon blood gene. It is smailar as the white-red discus.

HTH

[vicdiscus]

I wonder what would come from this pair? 74191

That would be very interested in the offspring will turn out and look like...

[Kanari_Discus]

yes, I'am hoping that i'll get white base (white skin) from their mother and thick white patern from their father also in the same time red color from booth of them.

[Kanari_Discus]

yes, I'am hoping that i'll get white base (white skin) from their mother and thick white patern from their father also in the same time red color from both of them.

would it be like this one
74192

[nc0gnet0]

I believe the Snowflake white or White diamond etc no pigeon blood gene crossed with Yellow strain If the yellow strain is no pigeon blood gene or pigeon blood gene.


This would not be correct, at least not for the ogon yellow white which indeed does have a pigeon blood gene.

Rick

[dpete9]

This Red Cover

http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d33/petee33/RedCoverX.jpg

plus this Blue Turq
http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d33/petee33/FemBT.jpg

Produce (never mind some little culls from later batches swimming around.. will take care of that today)

All fry with a variation of this
https://fbcdn-sphotos-h-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-snc7/388008_10151166853521388_362064168_n.jpg

https://fbcdn-sphotos-c-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/292435_10151166853741388_164652491_n.jpg

https://fbcdn-sphotos-b-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/551015_10151166854451388_678883221_n.jpg

https://fbcdn-sphotos-e-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-snc6/183759_10151166855431388_461072491_n.jpg

with the exception of one or two of these:

https://fbcdn-sphotos-d-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-snc7/427191_10151166855126388_696412724_n.jpg


I thought i read somewhere that the Red cover or the brown based was dominant? Seems if that were the case these would all be predominantly brown without marking like the father?
Is that in line with what would be expected? Not sure it's the prettiest cross I've done.

[Rod]

I thought i read somewhere that the Red cover or the brown based was dominant? Seems if that were the case these would all be predominantly brown without marking like the father?
Is that in line with what would be expected? Not sure it's the prettiest cross I've done.

It is dominant, and you have proved it with this spawn. If it was recessive, then not 1 single baby would look like your red cover. When the mutant dominant gene is homozygous for that trait, then ALL the babies will carry the trait. If the gene is only carried in heterozygous form, then only a percentage will express the trait as in this case.

HTH

Rod

[dpete9]

Ok thanks Rod! Genetics is a very fascinating subject for me but I will be the first to admit very confusing. The Brown Base is dominant, which they all are brown based.. But the spotting/ striations (the blue ) are a separate allele from the base coloring? And then the striations are dominant over no striations? is that correct? :fried: <--- my brain at the moment trying to understand

[nc0gnet0]

But the spotting/ striations (the blue ) are a separate allele from the base coloring? And then the striations are dominant over no striations? is that correct? <--- my brain at the moment trying to understand

These traits are not neccesarily controlled by one gene, rather a combination of genes, making it harder to predict. And your brown based red cover might have been the result of a crossing with a Virgin Red type fish to a spotted/striated type fish.

For instance I crossed a Virgin Red with a Albino Red spotted green. All the offspring (F1's) were solid brown based reds, simular to a red cover. Now, when I cross those offspring with a spotted/striated fish, then the offspring of the second pairing(F2's) are much more likely to inherit spots and striations. The key is the underlying genetics of the Red Cover, which is an unknown until you start to breed it.

Rick

[dpete9]

These traits are not neccesarily controlled by one gene, rather a combination of genes, making it harder to predict. And your brown based red cover might have been the result of a crossing with a Virgin Red type fish to a spotted/striated type fish.

For instance I crossed a Virgin Red with a Albino Red spotted green. All the offspring (F1's) were solid brown based reds, simular to a red cover. Now, when I cross those offspring with a spotted/striated fish, then the offspring of the second pairing(F2's) are much more likely to inherit spots and striations. The key is the underlying genetics of the Red Cover, which is an unknown until you start to breed it.

Rick
Very good information. The breeder I purchased him from said that he is an albino carrier. I know this to be true from a later batch with a albino. he produced some albino fry. I guess the point of my rambling is to say you are correct I do not know his ancestry. :-)

[Kal-El]

What do you get if you breed a Marlboro Red + Ring Leopard. How would the offspring look like? Would you get a Red Discus with white Rings patterns on it? Thanks

[dpete9]

These traits are not neccesarily controlled by one gene, rather a combination of genes, making it harder to predict. And your brown based red cover might have been the result of a crossing with a Virgin Red type fish to a spotted/striated type fish.

For instance I crossed a Virgin Red with a Albino Red spotted green. All the offspring (F1's) were solid brown based reds, simular to a red cover. Now, when I cross those offspring with a spotted/striated fish, then the offspring of the second pairing(F2's) are much more likely to inherit spots and striations. The key is the underlying genetics of the Red Cover, which is an unknown until you start to breed it.

Rick

Well some of the solid ones like in the last pic are becoming a copper colored base with a full blue body. These are the ones I am interested in at the moment.

[ajvdiscus]

Know i have a question also,,,
heheh

this is my male http://i1064.photobucket.com/albums/u369/lcosta2/pairs/RGD.jpg

know should be arriving on friday a female like this one, http://i1064.photobucket.com/albums/u369/lcosta2/pairs/albino.jpg

both are albinos will the san merh stand our more or the RGD ?

[jokerman]

Hi friends, please, "I want you to see the below photo that is a Typical of breeding,Who can introduce me to a site that is completely about the breeding of discus
77038
Thanks

[jokerman]

Hi Merry Christmas
What do you think of the combination between two DISCUS in the following photos in a race in first and second generation Can be raised
77058

77059
TANKS

[Eddie]

Not good at all and a mix to stay away from. Very heavily peppered pigeon bloods.

[jokerman]

thanks Eddie I have another question
Do you mean that the F 1-F 2 F 3 hybrid is first-generation and second-generation and third-generation?Do you need to get the F 1-F 2 to coupling brother sister pair discus?

[jokerman]

thanks Eddie I have another question
Do you mean that the F 1-F 2 F 3 hybrid is first-generation and second-generation and third-generation?Do you need to get the F 1-F 2 to coupling brother sister pair discus?

No one could answer my question

[Rod]

What do you get if you breed a Marlboro Red + Ring Leopard. How would the offspring look like? Would you get a Red Discus with white Rings patterns on it? Thanks

Hi, Probably all pigeon bloods with highly variable pattern. Ring patterns appear to be controlled by multiple genes, and the chances of any rings showing on a cross would be extremely small. Problem with this cross, is most of the babies will be peppered, and not popular.

Rod

[Rod]

both are albinos will the san merh stand our more or the RGD ?

Hard to say. They are close phenotypes, and i think will make a good breeding pair. Probably be fairly variable regarding red color, though i suspect some will have a lot of it. :) The albino gene should effectively mask base color differences (genotype) from this cross.

[Rod]

Hi friends, please, "I want you to see the below photo that is a Typical of breeding,Who can introduce me to a site that is completely about the breeding of discus
77038
Thanks

https://www.coursera.org/course/geneticsevolution

Take a look at this course. The first half is specifically on genetics and will answer the questions you have. It is free and a lot of fun.

[nc0gnet0]

Not good at all and a mix to stay away from. Very heavily peppered pigeon bloods.

As Rod pointed out, this should NOT be an issue due to the fact both are albino's.

[Eddie]

As Rod pointed out, this should NOT be an issue due to the fact both are albino's.

You quoted my response Rick? I was referring to the Blue Turq and Pigeon Blood. What are you implying.

[nc0gnet0]

My bad then Eddie :) Your post (number 223) appeared to me to be a response to post numbr 220. Now that I look it over I missed post 222 sorry.........

[Eddie]

My bad then Eddie :) Your post (number 223) appeared to me to be a response to post numbr 220. Now that I look it over I missed post 222 sorry.........

I wasn't sure. No worries. I read the previous threads and noticed the albino posts and thought you might have been referring to them.

[MancPaul]

Been reading this thread for a while now and am in the process of setting up a tank that I intend to fill with discus
Anyone got any suggestions as a good starter for a cross to make and therefore what lines might be good to start with?

[84mos]

http://i1321.photobucket.com/albums/u560/84mos/discus%201-29-13/9C2DDFA5-3C72-43E3-8590-F4F9BFF37437-1244-0000030226B23CBC_zps5b2d6d33.jpg
what would come from red scrible male x spotted leopard female

[Kanari_Discus]

Hi friends, please, "I want you to see the below photo that is a Typical of breeding,Who can introduce me to a site that is completely about the breeding of discus
77038
Thanks

http://www.discus.tv/forum/showthread.php?17-By-Martin-NG-Discus-Catalogue

[DLFL]

This is a Firered, would it be considered a throwback?

http://i191.photobucket.com/albums/z97/DLFL/Discus/5-24-2013/eed7577c-85fe-454e-83f7-b5a977f76b32_zpsea750da6.jpg (http://s191.photobucket.com/user/DLFL/media/Discus/5-24-2013/eed7577c-85fe-454e-83f7-b5a977f76b32_zpsea750da6.jpg.html)

[DLFL]

Come on, someone has to be able to answer this. It goes along with talking about breeding.

[nc0gnet0]

What makes you think it is a throwback? To me it looks like a fire red that has a bit of striation.

Rick

[DLFL]

I had no idea but it seemes that they are advertised as being a solid fish. That is why I asked.

[John_Nicholson]

Normally they are solid but it is not completely unheard of for them to have a few striations.

-john

[Kerrie]

Hi guys, I am new here and thinking of buying a pair consisting of a reflection D and a ring leopard, what would these 2 likely produce?
Thanks Guys

[Reulandjr]

http://youtu.be/oSawh_L31yE
The red turq and the large PE are in iniitial stages of mating, cleaning, fluttering,etc.
What could I expect in offspring from them? Would any be Penang eruptions?
Plz excuse the algae bloom, was gone for a week and came back to that, so odd an 80% WC and its back in 2 days in full force. had to hit it with chefs this time...

[zachrabbit15]

Hello so one set of colors I am still very confused on is the Ogon's I have 3 white faces red Ogon's that are supposed to albino carriers. I also have a couple yellow ogon's. Now from a couple past post Some say all yellow Ogon's are PB based? Does that hold true for the red based too?

[Rod]

Hello so one set of colors I am still very confused on is the Ogon's I have 3 white faces red Ogon's that are supposed to albino carriers. I also have a couple yellow ogon's. Now from a couple past post Some say all yellow Ogon's are PB based? Does that hold true for the red based too?

Ogons are heterozygotes. White is one of the genes and it is posible pb is the other. An ogon could also be produced using brown based and golden based genes. If you are successful with your breeding, post the percentages found among the fry and we may be able to deduce the parentage from that.

[James Yangzon]

Barely three months in discus keeping, started with 6 PB 1.5 inch and 6 BD 2inch in a 75 gallon tank and they are now approximately 4 to 4.5 inch. My goal in the next few months is just to let them grow healthy maybe up to six inches or more, however, I know that in the future a few pairs may happen.

And this thread will surely come in handy, and as a newbie I will try my very best to ask the right questions. If my inquiry seems out of the mark, pardon my ignorance on a subject that is not that easy to digest. Please allow me to try to establish my queries on the very basics as I learn to crawl before I learn to walk.

First question: Are there only four species, blue, brown, green and the heckel?

Related queries: Are all four been domesticated? (pardon my scant knowledge on this guys)
If all four bred in captivity, were there instance/s that there were documented color mutations attributed
directly to a certain specie? I mean when a certain mutation appeared, lets say blue diamond, was it
from a blue or green, etc.?

[Rod]

Hi James,

Probably 3 species, depending on who you ask. Most people classify blue and brown as variation within the 1 species S. haraldi.

Heckel has not been domesticated successfully, Both greens and blues have been domesticated.

The mutations do not appear to be restricted to species, and in the case of the blue diamond, were probably hybrid blue/green types that mutated. From a genectics point, it doesn't seem to matter.

HTH

Rod

[James Yangzon]

Don't know if I make sense Rod, let me put it this way: A color mutation is a deviation from the original color of the wild if I may assume, (unless the mutation occurred in an already mutated form).

In other words, the best way to identify or describe a mutation or strain (help me on this one also as I try to differentiate a strain from a mutation, a definition of terms is in the agenda so to speak) is to describe what color traits it deviated from the original, the normal or what we may call the wild.

Let us take an old and simple mutation, the blue diamond. If this comes from the blue then the bd gene can be described as a mutation that inhibits the bars of the fish as well as eliminating other secondary color and what is left is the primary color which is the blue.

From this approach we can put every color mutation in its proper perspective. We can now differentiate accurately what a certain mutated gene does.

Hope it make sense and I was able to ask the right questions.

[Rod]

Don't know if I make sense Rod, let me put it this way: A color mutation is a deviation from the original color of the wild if I may assume, (unless the mutation occurred in an already mutated form).

Mutation in simple terms refer to change in the dna. Most traits, ie color for example, are controlled by a segment of dna comprising of many genes. The amount of color, the intensity of color, the variations in color are all controlled by many genes. In the wild, perhaps 1 in 1000 discus collected will have extraordinary color. This is a change (mutation) of sorts because the normal variation in the wild have somber colors (makes sense for camauflage for example). Think of genes as on/off switches. For the sake of argument, if we assume 10 genes control color, depending on how those genes are orientated will control the amount of color. All genes in the off position gives a discus with very little color, and to the position where all 10 are switched on, in which i would equate with the 1 in a 1000 discus. All combinations of how those genes are switched will give a variation on the color. Nature "selects" the most suitable for survival, it will be the ones that have the most fit combination of traits. In the aquarium, we don't have to play by natures rules. Color is easy to manipulate as all we need to do is line up all 10 genes. Mostly this is acheived by linebreeding of one fashion or another.

The bd gene is a different gene altogether, probably more in line with what most people call mutation. It appears to be controlled by 1 gene change. As you noted it has different effects to normal genes, instead of subtle and continous gradation of traits, the bd gene is a monster, a freak.


In other words, the best way to identify or describe a mutation or strain (help me on this one also as I try to differentiate a strain from a mutation, a definition of terms is in the agenda so to speak) is to describe what color traits it deviated from the original, the normal or what we may call the wild. Let us take an old and simple mutation, the blue diamond. If this comes from the blue then the bd gene can be described as a mutation that inhibits the bars of the fish as well as eliminating other secondary color and what is left is the primary color which is the blue.

I don't think any color traits deviated from the original blue/ green type that bd mutated from. That 10 gene example i think, still holds water with the bd. The change in a bd is more related to the way the color is distributed, rather than the actual color.

I don't know what a strain is. At one time i would have said all traits at fixation. But there are heterozygote discus that produce 2 lovely homegenous forms from the one breeding, and are demonstrated to consistently do this. The water is pretty muddy on this issue.


From this approach we can put every color mutation in its proper perspective. We can now differentiate accurately what a certain mutated gene does.

I agree :)


Hope it make sense and I was able to ask the right questions.

Yes, made perfect sense. I really like these types of questions.

[James Yangzon]

This is what I gather, color deviations may be controlled by multiple genes or a straightforward color mutation which appears to be controlled by one gene.

Is it correct to assume that deviations from multiple genes are a bit difficult to establish as we have to do linebreeding, etc., whereas those that are controlled by one gene (like the bd?) can be established by simple pairing (though the gene is recessive and should be homozygous for the phenotype to appear).

Is it correct then for a newbie to try to establish what are the colors that are controlled by one gene and those that are controlled by multiple genes?

In this way a newbie will know that when he tried to pair a certain color that is being controlled by multiple genes, the newbie breeder should have some patience to do linebreeding, inbreeding etc.

And if he wants instant result a breeder should go for color deviations that are controlled by one gene (and is dominant for this purpose) to get instant results.

Is this an efficient way of doing things, particularly if you are a newbie?

[Rod]

This is what I gather, color deviations may be controlled by multiple genes or a straightforward color mutation which appears to be controlled by one gene.

I think control of the color genes is essential in every breeding situation, wheather we are also breeding with a one gene mutation.


Is it correct to assume that deviations from multiple genes are a bit difficult to establish as we have to do linebreeding, etc., whereas those that are controlled by one gene (like the bd?) can be established by simple pairing (though the gene is recessive and should be homozygous for the phenotype to appear).

It's not that it is difficult to establish a more colorful line, but it is a rather slow way of doing it. When aligning genes a general shift towards better color will be observed from each generation. Wild type royal blue/royal green strains take more than 5 generations before the majority of the discus have this royal quality. Maybe more or less, it depends on the initial wild discus, and your selection procedure. But even after 5 generations, you can still expect some of those somber colored ones, just less of them. It is the same process with any trait (other than single gene mutations) and is the reason why i think aligning the desireable genes is an essential process in all breeding situations. Essentially, all i am saying is breed with the best quality specimens you can find.

For single gene mutations, yes it is easier for sure. If you perform a "sensible" cross, ie blue diamond and solid blue turquoise, by backcrossing an F1 with the bd parent you will have 50% bds. One more generation establishes the gene to homozygosity. That is for a recessive gene. For a dominant gene it takes the same amount of time, but as the heterozygotes and homozygotes look the same, you have the added complexity of experimental breeding to find the "correct" ones to breed with. But while all this is going on, you will still need to pay strict attention to muiplle gene alignment, or else the line will not be attractive.


Is it correct then for a newbie to try to establish what are the colors that are controlled by one gene and those that are controlled by multiple genes?

Absolutely, easier to get somewhere if you have a map. Fortunetly there is only a handful of single gene mutations, the complication comes when you have several going on in one animal. ie an albino pigeon blood. The albino gene removes the outward appearance of pigeon blood.


In this way a newbie will know that when he tried to pair a certain color that is being controlled by multiple genes, the newbie breeder should have some patience to do linebreeding, inbreeding etc.

Yes, breed the best fish you have and keep selecting each generation for the best. I don't think you have to inbreed to acheive this, the German breeder Gobel showed that it is possible to do so with outbreeding each generation. But for most of us, getting access to that level of quality stock is a dream, so we inbreed to make things easier.


And if he wants instant result a breeder should go for color deviations that are controlled by one gene (and is dominant for this purpose) to get instant results.

There are some crosses that work extremely well, but remember that the more radical the cross is, the more shuffling there will be of the multi gene traits.


Is this an efficient way of doing things, particularly if you are a newbie?

I advice newbies to buy an established strain, or better yet buy 2 strains that have very similar features and mix them. My own personal fav from the past was breeding wild type blue discus with red turquoise discus. With this combination you get a variety of splendidly colored fish, that can be used to establish your own personal variation.

[James Yangzon]

Crucial info you have given here Rod, I appreciate this much.

But to avoid information overload, I have always believe that setting the basics straight will do us good. And so I will come back to definition of terms so there will be alignment in every term we used or being used in this forum.

I have noticed that queries all over this forum starts with a breeder's question of: If I cross this strain with this strain what will happen? What are strain then? Is a single allele mutation considered a strain? Or desired color enhancement caused by multiple alleles are called strains?

I believe that if we are clear on this it will give the breeder an idea on how to do 'sensible' crosses
if you may.

TIA