Artificial Breeding ? anyone

[stanlee]

I know this has been discussed, but somehow with all the sob stories of parents not being able to bring up the fries and so many spawns being lost, I think we should reconsider the alternative of artificial breeding, other than fostering out method.

I hope someone else has some more ideas to share in terms of method, food etc.
There is something missing somehow which is the milliion dollar question.
Hope forumers will contribute to this exciting subject , at least to me.
Thanks in advance.
Of course I had tried many times but expectedly failed as the essence is the labour involved.
rgds,

[Harriett]

You might research threads or posts by Cliffsdiscus; Cliff is without question one of the US's premier artificial rearing experts of discus. Cliff is a terrific guy and has talked a good deal about his methods candidly here on SD.
Good luck
Harriett

[stanlee]

You might research threads or posts by Cliffsdiscus; Cliff is without question one of the US's premier artificial rearing experts of discus. Cliff is a terrific guy and has talked a good deal about his methods candidly here on SD.
Good luck
Harriett
hi,
yes, i read Cliff's methods both here and in another place (forgot), but I am sure there are other people who had experimented with AB , since J Wardley mentioned it in his book.
But Cliff's method look rather simple, but what I am curious is the food for the first week before introducing the bbs.
This is something I hope other breeders can help me with some info. Things that I not keen to harp on are egg yolk, liquid fry from interpet, bbs during the first week.
I tried all these , but to no avail.
thnks

[crimson cross]

Read the article on Gan in " Singapore Discus". He has an interesting way on AR. using rotifers. You willl need to figure out his entire method, but the frame work is explained in the book. hth.

[kaceyo]

I've done it successfuly using 1/2 raw eggyolk to 1/2 hardboiled eggyolk. But it's supposed to keep the water much cleaner by using bakers powdered eggyolk. Mix it with a bit of spirolina and crushed bbs.
IME it's all about keeping the water and bowles clean.

Kacey

[stanlee]

hi kacey,
i am in siingapore and tried to find the baker's egg yolk, but cannot find a place which sells this product.
i tried hard boiled egg yolk ,but like u said, it fouls up the water pretty quick.
so unless i can have a method of making the water real clean, my work does not allow me to change the water in the bowl 5x per day.
any suggestions to make it a bit less labour intensive in the water changing area.
thks

[kaceyo]

Hi Stanlee,
I couldn't find it either and that's why I used the cooked/raw mix. There is a method that alows clean & fresh aquarium water to drip into the bowl so water stays cleaner. Also, as the bowl fills it sinks very slowly and allows the little guys to get to dried yolk that is placed above the water line.
Need to practice first to see how many drops per min it takes to do without bowl sinking too low and release fry into tank before you get home.

Kacey

[stanlee]

Hi Stanlee,
I couldn't find it either and that's why I used the cooked/raw mix. There is a method that alows clean & fresh aquarium water to drip into the bowl so water stays cleaner. Also, as the bowl fills it sinks very slowly and allows the little guys to get to dried yolk that is placed above the water line.
Need to practice first to see how many drops per min it takes to do without bowl sinking too low and release fry into tank before you get home.

Kacey
hi kacey,
thanks a lot for your patient explanation.
i get a pretty good picture of what u r trying to describe.
i guess the egg yolk combi is still the closest to the parents mucus.

actually i like the experimenting part, not too keen to breed the discus the usual way (although easier by a mile), but i think for the moment i am doing much worse than the parents, but that's me.
will try to imagine a setup whereby this concept of water line rising to increase the food contact with the water to lower the contamination of uneaten food as not to foul the water (which i think is the main cause for the demise of the fries during the first week).
any setup to recommend. a picture would be ideal.
thnks again.
cheers.

[kaceyo]

Sorry, I have no pics of this type of setup. Only a picture in my head. I think you'll need to build it by "trial & error". Try first step, see how it works, make it better. Try again, see how it works, etc, etc.... ;) I'm not much help!
I know some people add small amount of antibiotic (eurithromyacin I think) to the water so it can go longer between wc's.

Kacey

[stanlee]

what i really don't understand is why discus fries cannot take things like interpet liquid fry.
what is the best equivalent to the parents' mucus.
anyone can answer this important question.
thnks

[rowedder]

I too am trying to artifically raise my fry with the raw egg and hard boiled egg with spirulina and crushed bbs. My fry are all swimming like they are drunk. I am thinking more and more water changes! They stopped coming up to feed as well. My set up is in a bowl with formula smeared on the brim of the bowl. I wipe it off after four hours then fill with fresh water. I am feeding them three times a day. I am on day two of feeding them.

[stanlee]

hi,
if the fries are swimming like "drunk" perhaps in a spiral movement, then i think they are in trouble, either water problem or some toxicity of some sort.
my own experience is that if they are not swimming right, then they will eventually die off after the next day or so.
even if u change the water many times per day, it will be too late if they are spiralling.
this is also one of the interesting problems.
imho.

[kaceyo]

I have had to use Epsom Salt for bloat on fry in the bowl, and formalin once for flukes(?), but don't remember them swimming like they were drunk. They either sat on the bottom (bloat) or at the surface (flukes).
I agree with Stan, Swimming problems are usually serious.

Kacey

[stanlee]

just to show u an e.g. of what healthy fries swimming is like, perhaps this vid of one of my experiments will spell it all.
like they say , a picture spells a thousand words.
hope u like this.
cheers.


http://s245.photobucket.com/albums/gg51/wllm2007/?action=view&current=MVI_0343.flv

[Tropical Haven]

Nice video, looks like a lot of fry you have there.

[crimson cross]

You must be joking...those are NOT one day old discus frys...in fact they don't look like discus frys at all...more like convicts...lol...

[stanlee]

maybe i didn't make myself clear. Sorry, it is actually day 1 of free swimming.
think everyone knows day 1 of hatching for discus , all will be sticking on the tile or glass. Guess I was wrong assuming everyone knows this. Sorry.

Perhaps another vid of the fries will be better hopefully.
thnks for pointing out.

http://s245.photobucket.com/albums/gg51/wllm2007/?action=view&current=MVI_0312.flv

[crimson cross]

wow..you are good, your one day old free swimming frys look super big and awesome...let me guess..is it the food ?.

[kaceyo]

Nice batch of fry Stan. Is that a styrofoam bowl they are in?

Kacey

[stanlee]

Nice batch of fry Stan. Is that a styrofoam bowl they are in?

Kacey
hi kacey,
the bowl is actually made of semi transparent plastic material which was placed on top of a piece of styrofoam. That's why you can see the styrofoam through it.

On the food side, this food is actually a powder form which is used for prawn hatcheries. It clumps together when it is moisten with water.
It doesn't seem to make the water cloudy, but because of work wise, the changing of water is much to be desired. So I really need a semi-auto water changing setup to sustain them till I come back from work. This is really my main problem.
And of course the fries love this food, perhaps too much, as they get "bloated" stomachs , another problem.
I am nevertheless still trying to figure out how's best to sustain optimum water conditions.
thnks for the encouragement though.
still trying the experimentation.
cheers.

[CliffsDiscus]

Stan,
What's the status of the aritifical breeding, the auto method of water changes is fairly simple use by some local and commerically use by Don(American Made Discus) in California.

Cliff