Introducing astaxanthin without beefheart... how?

[scolley]

I recently got some nice orange 3R2's that I'd like to "redden" up a bit. So I bought some NatureRose and added it - in recommended dosages - to some beefheart recipes.

I've got a planted tank, so I've not used beefheart in the past. My fear has been that it would be so messy, that is would spike algae blooms. So I tried several recipes in a separate tank, and INDEED it was just too messy. I even tried using a protein based gelatin replacement from aquaticecosystems. It's all just too messy for a planted tank, IMO.

So, if you don't use beefheart, how can you introduce astaxanthin into your fish's diet?

Thanks in advance.

[dpt8]

Try tetra bits Steve. They'll do the trick. David

[scolley]

Thanks David. I'm feeding Tetra Color Bits now. Of the 3R2's that don't spend their lives hiding in my plants - the social, well adjusted ones - tear TCB up. They love them.

But I was under the impression that TCB could not get you near the reddening effect that astaxanthin does. Is that not correct?

Thanks.

[seanyuki]

Hi Steve,

Try making a solution with astaxanthin powder and soak the flake/pellet food in the solution b4 feeding the discus...just my 2 cents


Cheers
Francis

[kaceyo]

Hi Scolley,
Get n touch with the people at www.brineshrimpdirect.com and ask about their flakes with NatuRose. I know they used to have a selection with up to 300ppm astaxanthin that would be perfect for what you want. It should work much better than TetraBits for solid red fish.

Kacey

[Dkarc@Aol.com]

If you really want them red there is always carophyll pink.....

But on a serious note, I have seen some fish farmers down here take astaxanthin powder and mix it with a touch of vegetable oil. Just enough to create a very thick paste. They either feed this as is, or freeze it in sheet form (like BH). Not sure how it would do being in a planted tank though....

-Ryan

[SriAngel]

Steve,

There are some enhanced colorbit products out there by tetra with cyclopeze which are a natural source of astaxanthin:

http://www.bigalsonline.com/BigAlsUS/ctl3684/cp18346/si1591566/cl0/tetramicrocrabsgranules141

http://www.bigalsonline.com/BigAlsUS/ctl3684/cp18330/si3109183/cl0/tetraxtremecolorgranules353oz

[scolley]

Thanks folks! Every once in a while you hit upon a subject that is near and dear to people's hearts. This appears to be one, judging from the great advice here. :)

I'm going to keep your advice in mind sriangel and Francis. In fact, I've already bookmarked the appropriate pages. (BTW the product Francis aluded to appears to be the Plankton Gold Flake).

But since I already have TCB (now renamed TetraColor Tropical Granules) and NatureRose on hand, I decided tried the paste route - since others seem to do that. And rather than mess with feeding the straight paste, I just mixed about 1/8th tsp NatureRose and approx 1/4th tsp of water. It made a nice wet, fairly liquid paste. Then I just mixed that with a tablespoon of TCB. That gave me a good bit of NatureRose tainted, and somewhat damp, TCB. Then I mixed that with another 4 or 5 tablespoons of TCB. That overall mix came our pretty dry - seemed to absorb the moisture fairly well.

So I've put that in my autofeeder, and will see if the fish take it. They LOVE the normal TCB that comes out of that feeder. Hopefully they'll tolerate the occasional NatureRose tainted bit.

For if this works, it looks like a really easy way to do this. And if it doesn't I'll try the other TCB and the flakes.

Thanks for the good advice folks! I'll let you know how it works out. ;)

[seanyuki]

Hi Steve,

I been feeding my RGD with Tetra Micro crab and good for red discus...also just ordered some Sera fish food to try out for red discus.

http://www.drsfostersmith.com/product/prod_display.cfm?c=3578+7927+15535&pcatid=15535


Cheers
Francis:)

[scolley]

Hi Steve,

I been feeding my RGD with Tetra Micro crab and good for red discus...also just ordered some Sera fish food to try out for red discus.

http://www.drsfostersmith.com/product/prod_display.cfm?c=3578+7927+15535&pcatid=15535


Cheers
Francis:)
Thanks Francis. How do they look? Do you think it works?

[ashaysathe]

Hi Steve,

Hope all is well. I have 3R2 too and I bought Naturose as well to mix it. Long story short Tetra bits do as much good as the Naturose would to my observation.
On the other topic of 3R2 hiding, 3R2 is a very "shy" strain or let me rephrase not to generalize, to what I have and grown the strain seem to be less owner friendly than others. I am not surprised that yours hide as well. There are times when my 3R2 is fearless like a godzilla and times when shy like a 3R2 (couldn't think of a shy godzilla)
So to your question tetra bits would do the trick as much as naturose would and for 3R2 - its a beatutiful fish its just has a shy nature (again not generalizing its just my obeservation with what I have)

[seanyuki]

Hi Steve,

My RGD and just sharing

http://i255.photobucket.com/albums/hh127/seanyuki/DSCF1324.jpg


http://i255.photobucket.com/albums/hh127/seanyuki/DSCF1327.jpg







Thanks Francis. How do they look? Do you think it works?

[scolley]

... I have 3R2 too and I bought Naturose as well to mix it. Long story short Tetra bits do as much good as the Naturose would to my observation.Thanks Ashay! I've seen pics of your 3R2's and they look GREAT! If mine ever got that read with TCB, I'd be thrilled!


This is only my 3rd batch of fish. And it is by FAR the youngest I've ever had. But to my understanding, it's older, more settled fish that have trouble with new environments. These are MUCH more skittish than either of the much larger (and supposedly more skittish) batches of fish that I have purchased. So I'm going to assume that it is the strain.

That said, there are a couple (2 of 5) that are pretty "brave". And there is one that is almost fearless - relatively speaking. So I'm inclined to agree with your observations... they are probably just a skittish line. i just hope mine grow to be as lovely as yours!

[QUOTE=seanyuki;465528]Hi Steve, My RGD and just sharing
Thanks Francis. My problem is that I don't really have a good "discus eye". Do these look real red to you? I think the redder of my 3R2s are that red now. But without mistake my paler 3R2s are nowhere near as red as those in your pics. :-(

So I suppose it is a pretty subjective thing. Problem is, I want to blow away subjective. I'm not interested in having fish that we have to debate if they are red. I want RED fish. RED. And the fact is, most "red" discus are only really "orange", or at best "tomatoe red". Either way, it ain't "RED".

And my question in the first post of this thread is because I want to know how to get them there. As long as it does not jeopardize their health, I'm willing to consider any given feeding regimen to get these fish RED.

Thanks for the pics!

[kaceyo]

IMO the only thing that is going to give your fish the red you want is carophyll pink. Tetra bits don't work as well as astaxanthin and astaxanthin doesn't work as well as carophyll pink.
The fish we see that are the very bright red you're looking for are treated to look that way before we ever get them. Beyond that it's largely guess work, at least on my part, as to why one 3r2 looks more orange or less bright red but I believe it has to do with the lineage, the type of carophyll they were fed (there are many "shades" available), and how much of it they were given.
Do some searching and you'll find tons of info on the subject, but the info on it's use with discus is scattered around.

Kacey

[number1sixerfan]

I feed Hikari Discus Bio-Gold and my RGD get extremely red from it. I switch from it from time to time to straight frozen and I can notice a difference with the Hikari Bio-Gold. I also use Tetra Bits, but the Bio-Gold reddens then a bit better. TCB is now my back up food, and a good one.

Good Luck, I love your tanks btw.

[scolley]

IMO the only thing that is going to give your fish the red you want is carophyll pink.Kacey - I'd never heard of carophyll pink until your post. Thanks.

And YES, there is indeed tons of information out there on it. But IMO the biggest problem is not the lack of discus specific info... but rather the apparently WIDE gulf of opinion of whether it's harmless, healthy, or life threatening for discus.

I'm definitely not willing to hurt my fish to be nice eye-candy for me or my wife. But at the same time, I can't say that using carophlyll pink is going to hurt them. But because the jury seems to be out, I'm going to stay away. That is until and unless I see compelling evidence that it does not hurt fish. But thanks for pointing that out. It may well be that without resorting to that, that my fish will never rise above "orange". Bummer.



I feed Hikari Discus Bio-Gold and my RGD get extremely red from it.Thanks for the tip. It looks like that would go well into a auto feeder, so I might give that a shot. Thanks!

And BTW number1sixerfan, I DO appreciate the kind words on the tank. I don't know if it is really possible to be both proud and humble at the same time... but that is how I feel. I feel good about being able to mix discus with plants and come up with something that is usually attractive (and they DO look MUCH better in person). But that "usually" word keeps me humble. The fact is my tanks don't always look so great. And it will only be after I learn a LOT more will i be able to keep them looking good all the time, and avoid all the darned newbie pot-holes I keep stepping into!

But thanks for the encouragement!



ON ANOTHER NOTE...

kaceyo's post above got me researching carophyll pink and it opened my eyes to a host of issues that I had never considered. My ignorance in this space is evidenced by my first post where I referred to "Naturose" as "Naturerose".

(How many of you guys saw that and chuckled, but were too kind to point it out? Thanks for being nice. Really. But if you see me being ignorant in the future, I'll consider it a kindness if you let me know. Really. I'm not into ignorant.)

Anyway... it appears that even Naturose is a problem in the wrong quantities. And I just mixed a bunch of slop up with it, smeared it on TCB, filled the feeder, and walked away fat, dumb, and happy. :( Well I woke up in the middle of the night last night with that realization. Not a happy thought. But I'm away on a biz trip and can't do anything about it for a couple days. I hope I'm not OD'ing fish in the interim.

Can anyone tell me the correct dosing ratio of Naturose, by weight, of Naturose to the supplemented food? I have no desire to cause my fish suffering for my desire to see RED.

Thanks in advance.

[kaceyo]

Hi Scolly,
I;ve never used carophyll pink either. But it is what they use to give the 3r2's there bright color. Of course the fish has to have the genetics to be able to utilize the color. There are definitly health issues with carophyll so it wouldn't be a good idea to experiment with it on your prize show fish.
I have never heard of any health risks associated with NatuRose though. It's a dried algea and has numurous health benefits and the only problems I've had with over using it are that the fish don't like the taste if too much is used and it will give hte fish an unatural look. I use 1 tsp/lb of beefheart and will start cutting back on the amount I feed adults to avoid the over colored look. I have never heard of feeding it straight with only oil to hold it together either. I think that's way too much, but not for health reasons.
HTH

Kacey

[dpt8]

Hey Steve, What did you end up feeding your fish ??? What's the menu look like ?? :9) David

[scolley]

Well David, after deciding the jury was out on carophyll pink, and after reviewing the aparent evidence that Naturose does a good a job as you can ask without carophyll pink, I dedided to use that.

I'm just mixing a little with water to make a paste, and mixing the paste with CTB (or whatever they've been re-named now). I'm uncertain on what ratio will not be damaging too my fish. I can certainly say I'm using very little - 1/8 TSP to 4 oz TCB. The fish love TCB, so this works great.

But I'm gonna try mixing in some Tetra Xtreme Color Granules, as was previously suggested. And I REALLY wish I could find some guidance on how much Naturose was too much, but that infomation seems to be hard to find.

They've been on this for a few weeks, and it's hard to say if it's made a difference. I suppose this is something that has to play out over the course of months if you are not OD'ing the stuff.

[kaceyo]

Hi Scolly,
Going by weight, 1/8tsp per 4oz of food is half the amount I feed my spotteds. I don't know if you could go any higher using TetraBits though since mixing it with pellets is a whole different ballgame. I wouldn't worry about using too much NatuRose. It is just an algea so your fish could probably eat it pure without damaging themselves. Actually, Ryan stated below that some people feed it with only enough oil to make it into a thick paste.
The carophylls are a different story. They are a synthetic version of astaxanthin and is much more concentrated so will damage the fish if overdosed.
It does take awhile for the results to be seen so be patient and keep us updated on how it works on you 3R2's.

Kacey

[lilim10]

Hikari Cichlid Gold has astaxanthin, but the pellets are large and they float. So, I soak them in water for a good 10 minutes and squeeze them gently between my fingers, and voila! They sink! (and by then they are soft enough for the discus to eat)

[limct]

You can soak your pellet in astaxanthin first before feeding to the discus.

[scolley]

Going by weight, 1/8tsp per 4oz of food is half the amount I feed my spotteds. I don't know if you could go any higher using TetraBits though since mixing it with pellets is a whole different ballgame.
Sounds like I'm OK then. Thanks. I'd rather play it conservative. Plus, that is only a ratio of NatuRose to food weight. It doesn't really say how much NatuRose is actually ingested by fish, and my fish's diet is heavy on TCB. So understand the lack of concern about this particular product - and it's aparent safety. But it sounds like in in the ballpark for ratios. Thanks!

[scolley]

Ok, it's been a little while. My 3R2's are definitely orange. Not red. Orange. And they get a daily dose of TCB with Naturose. But I have one that does not like the TCB (which is in itself a problem that I'll have to address, as it's not getting enough food). But that fish is NOT orange, but a pale orangy white. So it appears that the feed is making the difference in the color. But so far, that color is not red.

I got them some MicroCrabs too, as reccomended here. But on the label it says "helps promote development of natural pink to orange-red colors of fish". What? Pink? Orange-red? Not Red? I don't want this. I'm looking for red.

Which leads me to an new "in search of red" problem...

I bought some 3R's from Kenny. Have them in my quarantine now, where they are eating like pigs. And a part of that food is the same TCB with Naturose, but I've more than doubled the dosage I previously mentioned in this thread. And now I'm starting to notice dark spots on their lips, as if their lips are "redding up" while the rest of their faces remain pale.

I've used the search function here to no avail, but I could swear I've read that this is a bad indicator... possibly that I'm providing too much artificial color enhancer. Is that true? And if so, does this imply permanent damage?

Thanks.

[kaceyo]

IMO adding double doses of astaxanthin probably won't do any physical damage to your fish, but it will give the fish an un-natural look and color areas that you don't want colored, like the lips. It won't turn orange into red either. You could try Carophyll color enhancers but you'd need to do some research to determin the proper dose as the only place I know of to get it is through bird supply houses where it's used to color the feathers of certain species of pet birds.
HTH,

Kacey

[scolley]

Thanks Kacey - looks like I need to cut back the Naturose! ;)