Barebottom problems

[DiscusChris]

Ive had my fish for about 6 months. I wasnt satisfied with my gravel because it was really hard to keep as clean as I wanted.

I finished changing the fish over to a 55g BB tank about 2 weeks ago and theyre mega stressed. Not from water quality, but from the reflection of them swimming and me walking up. Short of painting my tank, is there anything else I can do? Ive lowered the lighting and it seems to help a little, but when I first turn it on in the morning they all go completely insane and crash into the heater and filter intake.

Thanks in advance for any advice.

[dwilder]

tape paper or card board to the bottom and back

[Graham]

The fish see no more reflection than you would looking out a window, there is no mirror affect being in the tank............. painting or cardboard will do zip. Add a very thin layer of gravel back to break up that glare.


G

[Autumn Wind]

I had the same problem. I tried a thin layer of gravel and found it more trouble than it was worth. After a lot of expirements this is what made my discus comfortable; cover the back and sides with paper, bottom too if you have a stand like mine that is not solid on top, I stuck some long fake plants under the top so they hang down (they really love this, think it's a toy) and the biggest help was I bought a small LED light, I got it at Walmart it's sold as an undercabinet light. I just sort of proped it underneath my flouresent hood. Before I turn off the hood lights I turn on the LED and leave it on all night. In the morning switch on the hood lights and turn off the LED's, no more panic and slamming into the sides of the tank.
I could have invested in a lunar light and probably will for my planted tank but this is my grow out tank and you can't beat the $8.00 I spent on the LED.
vanessa

[Darren's Discus]

Shadows and reflections are caused by having bare bottom tank's imo i would not add gravel i would find the shadows that are being thrown also make shure once again that your water is ok and don't tip toe around them,they are like babies and will get used to their new surounds.


cheers

[DiscusChris]

Well thanks guys, I really appreciate all of the help. I think ill try taping some cut cardboard onto the bottom and maybe a picture or something along the back.

Ill update when its done. Thanks again.

[Ed13]

The fish see no more reflection than you would looking out a window, there is no mirror affect being in the tank............. painting or cardboard will do zip. Add a very thin layer of gravel back to break up that glare.


G
People always talk about reflection on BB tanks, but I've always wondered about this G. Glass or acrylic is translucent, meaning unless there is something underneath the tank mirror like or light in color then light cannot bounce of it and in this case create reflection;) . Especially when not looking at it at an angle, which is why WE see a reflection. Do you see a reflection on your mask when you dive/snorkel?;)
So I wonder if the "odd" behaviour people always talk about is because the fish is concerned about the "what could be down there" natural instinct rather than the so called reflection.

[Graham]

People always talk about reflection on BB tanks, but I've always wondered about this G. Glass or acrylic is translucent, meaning unless there is something underneath the tank mirror like or light in color then light cannot bounce of it and in this case create reflection;) . Especially when not looking at it at an angle, which is why WE see a reflection. Do you see a reflection on your mask when you dive/snorkel?;)
So I wonder if the "odd" behaviour people always talk about is because the fish is concerned about the "what could be down there" natural instinct rather than the so called reflection.


http://www.fototime.com/4384ED057BEF901/standard.jpg
Nope no reflection:D clear through to the lobster.

Ed it's quite possible that a fish needs a ''bottom'' to feel secure...mind you I don't think that a discus would be classed as a bottom dwelling fish so it could/would naturally have predators below, being in mid-water. As you and I both know the fish sees no more reflection than we would standing in a window looking out.

While most of the fish kept are tank raised, their natural physiology, which can't be bred out of them, has them coming from dark water with tons of branches, leaves, roots etc.....what do we do with them but, put them blue backed, smooth glass boxes, in bright light...no wonder they feel insecure:)

I think dumping some gravel, large rock or driftwood in would have a greater affect than painting the bottom of a tank....it gives them a sense of security

[Wahter]

If there's nothing beneath your tank (ie. you can see through the bottom and into the area below), you can also tape some styrofoam to the bottom. :)



Walter

[Discus-n00b]

I find that the fish freak out the most when a shadow passes the tank. Like me walking infont of my SW tank across the room putting an eclipse on the metal halide for a second facing the discus tank.

I've just begun painting my tanks and its great so far. If nothing else it helps them be more accurate going for food. With a solid bottoms under it it makes the food stand out rather then it appear to be floating in midair with nothing below the tank. At least thats what i've noticed with my fish in the past.

[Graham]

''...when a shadow passes the tank...''

Matt when a shadow passes that means that something bigger than you are is passing overhead...things that are bigger than you are will eat you:(

Generally all fish, fresh or salt are dark on dorsal and light on the ventral area. If you're predator looking into water dorsally, dark fish are hard to see...if you're a bottom predator looking up at the bright surface of the water then a light silvery belly is harder to see...........

Painting the tank is for us, not the fish

G

[dwilder]

im not sure about all tanks i just know that in some of mine i have had fish like bettas and gourami even my discus posturing and trying to fight a reflection on the tank wall.not sure if the water or furniture ,walls etc are causing a reflection or what but covering sides and bottom does seem to help with the glare of the glass which imo helps keep discus calmer but your fish will usually calm down quite abit if you dont baby them to much they get use to you and their tank surroundings

[Graham]

Covering the walls and bottom does nothing more that stop the distance they can see into the room or to the floor...is that any different than if they were in a 12' long tank or a 6' deep one.

Any reflection that the fish would see is from the inside of the pane of glass...just like you standing at a window. The reflection that you see is from the inside and the glass is clear. There is no more mirror effect than that, very minor at best.

[Darren's Discus]

Why can we use a piece of glass to magnify the suns rays and start a fire ? imo light is enhanced through glass at certain angles and distorts vision and changes light fragmentation,so with the angles of a tank it is quite possible that the light is bouncing of the glass and throwing the shadows at diffrent angles in the tank that cause the spooking out of the fish,so tank placement is very important in relation to incoming light.


cheers

[Ed13]

Why can we use a piece of glass to magnify the suns rays and start a fire ? imo light is enhanced through glass at certain angles and distorts vision and changes light fragmentation,so with the angles of a tank it is quite possible that the light is bouncing of the glass and throwing the shadows at diffrent angles in the tank that cause the spooking out of the fish,so tank placement is very important in relation to incoming light.


cheers
A flat pane of glass, filled with impurities is hardly equal to a clear(not even high quality), shaped and polished lens(even 99 cent magnifying glass). But yes, position does greatly impact the inhabitants. However when talking about a flat piece regular glass it actually blocks light. Think of a glass shield on a double ended MH pendant, it's only regular tempered glass yet its capable of blocking UV rays.
When looking straight into a pane it's unlikely that there is a reflection, but the panes at angles might.
The question then is the field of view of the fish?
Covering sides and bottom works, no doubt about it. My doubt is wether is because of reflection or shadows outside the aquarium triggering instinctual behaviour.

[Graham]

Darren isn't that what a fish grows up with, be that in the wild or a fish room with a incandescent light or a window. It's physiology is designed for it, from the surface. This is back to shadows and possibly be eaten. Keep in mind also that fish aren't designed to take light from a side souce....There is no sunlight pouring in from the side in nature.

While the light rays are enhanced through the ripple effect on the surface of the water, as every reef hobbyist knows, it really doesn't distort vision coming through the sides of the tank. The sunset pans across my 175 every night, this time of the year and there is no ripple effect....but in the early morning the light coming through the back door of the fish room hits the surface of the tank and it light ripples like crazy.

This comes down to a sence of security and bare glass blue boxes filled with water...not silly reflections

G

[Graham]

A prefect example...no paint here is obivous and the fish look fantastic

A bit of gravel and driftwood

http://forum.simplydiscus.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=37265&d=1219794841

[Darren's Discus]

Graham,
that tank and heckels look fantastic ! the light reflections i talk of are my personal experiences in my fishroom as certain tanks in the room are effected diffrently to others.


cheers

[trebor69]

while I wont disagree that a BB tank doesnt exactly work like a mirror

I do believe its more than just the fish's field of view....or the fish's perception of depth

a BB tank near a window where the sun comes in will 'reflect' the light and cast shadows of the fish clear up on the ceiling...so I dont doubt at all that the reflection of light off of a BB messes with their vision. The light may even bounce around inside the tank off of every pane of glass who knows.

Ever been driving down the road and come around a curve only to get blasted in the eyes by the sun....and start to get nervous because you cannot see where you are going? lol

Someone mentioned that fish see no more reflection than we do looking out a window in our house. That may be true but in the world of predator vs prey I say that is PLENTY enough reflection to scare the scales off of a fish who thinks hes about to become lunch. In fact catching only a glimpse of something you thought you saw is often more frightening than when you KNOW you saw something. While its true the reflection is of what is on the same side as you....who knows maybe shadows being cast into the tank from outside sometimes get reflected

The amount of reflection you see is also dependent on the amount of light on both sides of the glass. When you are standing on the brighter side looking out into the darkness you can see quite a bit of reflection....such as at night time when you have all the lights on in the house.

My dads house has a large picture window in the family room. At night time when its dark outside and the lights are on inside the house.... I can sit on the couch and see everything going on in the room behind me...not quite as good as a mirror....but still a very clear 'reflection' of the entire room. While looking at this reflection I can also see the figures and forms of people walking outside in the street....but the reflection on the inside prevents me from having a clear view of what is on the outside. Again.... a fear of the unknown. Maybe they see something moving outside the tank but cannot identify it because of the reflection inside.

[Ed13]

Trebor, I agree with you. But, remember there is an element not present on your comparisons and that is water pressed against the glass. How does this affect the equation?
I think of a diving mask or an underwater camera.

Shadows vs reflection

[Peachtree Discus]

there seems to be good arguments on both sides. i am no physics expert and its pretty hard to figure out what the fish might really thinking. :cheesy:

i wonder if this is simply about the fish becoming accustomed to their environment. i have tanks with backs and bottoms covered, tanks with just the bottom covered and tanks with back and bottom uncovered. my fish are generally not that skiddish. i only have 1 fish that panics...be he panics no matter what tank he's in.

In addition, i have a tank of fry that seem to show less peppering with the bottom uncovered. haven't proven it...but it seems to be the case

[trebor69]

I will see if my dad will let me fill his living room up with water as an experiment to see how that works :p hehe

the water may be the x factor....water itself bends the light?

I am not up on on my fish physiology/anatomy...but I think its safe to say that fish are better adapted to see under water than us. Maybe they see reflections under water much the same as we do in air? Heck I dunno

I'd be skittish too if I was a 8oz fish and saw my big ugly 240lb mug comin at me haha

[DiscusChris]

Shadows and reflections are caused by having bare bottom tank's imo i would not add gravel i would find the shadows that are being thrown also make sure once again that your water is ok and don't tip toe around them,they are like babies and will get used to their new surroundings.


cheers

Alright guys,

It seemed like this is the thing that worked the best. I tried the cardboard thing and they were still freaking out. So I got tired of sneaking around, and just started walking right up to the tank in the morning, cranking it up, and throwing in the food. The first few days they went crazy but they're used to it now. They just associate me with food again like when the tank had gravel.

Thanks again for everyones input.

-Chris

[Esquire]

A prefect example...no paint here is obivous and the fish look fantastic

A bit of gravel and driftwood

http://forum.simplydiscus.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=37265&d=1219794841


WoW,
Those are the fish i want, Beautiful.
Can you give me a little more info on them..
Maybe a lot more info....:)
Thks

[Apistomaster]

DiscusChris is correct about being more deliberate in your motions around the tank, making a bigger deal out of feeding and even spending more time with your hands in the tanks will all reduce the flightyness of Discus better than pussyfooting it around them.

Even domestic discus bred a hundred generations still find side lighting entering the tank unnatural and disturbing so covering the sides and backcan greatly improve Discus sense of security.

I prefer to use a very thin layer of sand or fine gravel substrate over a bare bottom. Partly out of aesthetics and partly to give Discus a natural frame of reference and provide them with something to do. Discus are natural substrate sifters. The published studies of wild discus stomach has proven to what considerable extent they sift food from the benthic zone. My thousands of hours of observations of discus in aquariums has further confirmed they spend a great deal of their time searching for bits of food from the substrate.

Discus do not see their mirror image on the glass looking out nor bare bottom. They do notice a slight disconnect between the apparent bottom and the real bottom but they get used to it. Since searching through sand is normal and something their gills are designed to do I thin it is a good idea to let them have some sand. Even heavily domesticated discus must become bored not being able to do what their instincts have programmed them to do.
How less tah 1/4 inch of sand could make keeping a tank any more difficult to keep clean enough for the Discus is difficult for me to understand but then I'm not one who is obsessed over ever string of discus feces or speck of algae that I see. To each his or her own. My way:
http://i157.photobucket.com/albums/t41/apistomaster/HeckelWS029.jpg
Here is a different tank which is typical for my fish room. Maybe 3/16" of FloraBase. Peruvian Scalare searching for live black worms on the substrate.
http://i157.photobucket.com/albums/t41/apistomaster/PeruScalareWS005.jpg

[Graham]

Esquire those fish belong to another member on the site and I just linked back to his pic to use as an example...........

[chitak]

I have the same problem. There is a black foam underneath that came with the tank and I think it was causing reflection. I have 3 vietnam piegon bloods, and they mostly hid under the driftwood all they, and would get extremely scared when someoen walks into the room. One of them even stopped eating completely for almnost 2 weeks now and had white feces, treated with metro and nothing changed.
The guy from the LFS told me the BB isnt a big issue when they are crowded, and since there are only three of them he suggested me to put some gravel and I also covered the sided and back of the tank. I put only 3/8 thick of gravel and waiting to see if it is gonna do any better.

[chitak]

Forgot to mention something, all the examples everyone is giving is from real life stories. I mean we can't know for sure if there is reflection or not unless we are in a glass container looking down. I am not saying there is reflection with BB or not, I am just saying as the medium for us is air, it is hard to tell if there is a reflection going on inside.
The reason why light reflects is because the speed of light changes for different mediums, slower in water and glass so as it changes the mediums makes an angle towards the nomal the the surface. so either one of us get our dusted up physics book and start doing calculations, or hopefully there will be a volunteer to put their eyes in the aquarium JJ.
BTW I think (just an idea ) even the colour of what we have under the tank might make a difference. For mirrors, for instance, very dark layer of paint is used to provide reflection.

[Graham]

:) Your fish's problem has nothing to do with reflections but everthing to do with insecurity. A lot of fish don't like being in a glass box, especially if thier numbers are low.....there's always security in large numbers.

Metro is only good for hex and not much else and white feces can be from any number of things, including stress

There is no mirror effect in an aquarium...no more reflection than what you and I see looking out a window.

[GrillMaster]

Point taken Graham. :thumbsup:

Bottom line lies with the fish getting comfortable with you. Spend as much time as you can with them and they will soon calm down. :)

[Don Trinko]

IMO; Fish feel more secure with places to hide. Fake plants work for me.
Your fish also need to get used to all the normal activity. This can take a long time. I have 4 BD that would not eat while I was in the room for several months. Now I can touch them when I clean the tank. Don T.