Bad situation... hex? Need guidance pls.

[scolley]

I've got 9 healthy adult discus in a tank that I added 5 juveniles to a few weeks ago. The juveniles spent 6-7 weeks in quarantine before I put them in my main tank of healthy fish. I did not prophylactically medicate the quarantine tank.

The juveniles have been skittish and prone to hide since day 1. But they did get better in that quarantine and leaned to eat well there. When I moved them to my main tank, one - the most skittish - hid and pretty much stayed there. It's a reasonably well planted tank - there are lots of places to hide.

Initially the other 4 juvies ate well, mixing it up with the adults at feeding times. But over time they began to eat less, and hide more. Now I barely see them. And while some come out at meal time, most of them do not eat at all.

I had thought this was a behavioral issue, until last night, when I turned the light on (to show visiting friends) late at night. One of the juvies was not hiding in the weeds, and for the second or two before it disappeared there was a clear and visible white thread of feces, roughly twice the length of its body. I was not able to discern if it was segmented, nor tell if it had any markings or coloration. The thread (for what I could see) was long, thin (for fish poop) of consistent thickness, and apparently uniformly white. But I only saw it quickly, and cannot find it on any fish now, though the juvies are - as usual - mostly hiding.

The adults seem fine, and eat like pigs.

So I've got a few questions...


Should I assume this is hex and treat for it? Or is more investigation required to see if it is a worm?
If I were to treat for hex, how low a temp can I use? 92 degrees F will destroy my plants - without a doubt. Might kill my other fauna too.
What will metro do to my plants?
What will it do to my inverts (shrimp?)
What will it do to my loaches and dwarf cichlids?


I do not have a quarantine tank big enough to house all of my discus. And I'm assuming that every fish in my tank is exposed now, so I really have no choice but to treat the whole tank.

And advice would be most appreciated. Thanks.

[MSD]

If it is Hex, then you can buy Metro from Jehmco and treat the tank. Call them and ask for John, he has a lot of knowledge and can help you with dosing and length of treatment. I went through this and listened to the advice from this forum and they are eating well and no more white droppings. Good luck. :)

[scolley]

Thanks. I've already got an unused bottle of "Fish Zole" (250mg Metronidazole tablets) sitting on the shelf waiting for just such an emergency. Standard regimens here seem to be 250-500mg/10gal water, dosed from between once and three times a day, for three to five days, with 50% water changes each day. The variations in dosage, frequency, and duration seem to vary by individual making the reccomendation. So I've done my homework, and know how much, how often, and how long I want to dose. But that's only IF I dose.

I'm REALLY interested in my 5 questions from before, because I'm not certains that I SHOULD dose.

And this stuff has got both gram-negative and gram-positive antibiotics in it. It must be HELL on a bio-filter, which is REALLY bad news for a planted tank.

[MSD]

Metro is very mild in terms of antibiotics, good luck with your quest.

[scolley]

Thanks MSD. That's a relief. But I'm wondering if it would be the right thing...

I was reading Al's articale about tapeworms, and what I saw looked very much like these pics (http://www.simplydiscus.com/library/disease_medications/internal/tapeworms.shtml), in a single thread, twice the length of the fish's body. Starting to sound more like tapeworm than hex.

Thoughts? Does hex poop get twice the lenght of the fish's body?

[scolley]

While I suspect this is hex, if only because the fish are off their feed, I went ahead and started a course of prazi. Tapeworm is a possibility, and research on other sites seems to show that prazi doesn't hurt plants, biofilters or inverts.

And while prazi requires multiple courses, that's apparently a life cycle issue. The fish should be free of resident parasites with the first course. So if indeed I do have to turn to metro in a few days, the 2nd/3rd course of prazi at the same time should be no big deal, as they are going through deworming now... Not on the following courses.

[MSD]

Experienced keepers have recommended a course of Prazi first followed by Metro. Good luck.

[digthemlows]

sounds like tapeworms to me too, I've treated my planted tank a few times with it, didn't hurt anything at all and the fish got better.

[scolley]

I witnessed large amounts of tapeworms being expelled today. Long, white, segmented. No doubt about it. And they are definately what I saw - in that brief instant - the other night.

Funny things was, they (as in multiple) were coming out of my healthiest, largest, most normal acting and hungry 3R2. Most of the other 3R2's came out a bit, but I saw no evidence of worms.

So I've definately got a tapeworm issue, and whole treatment will be followed. Would tape worms make the other 3R2's go off their feed? I thought tapeworms didn't do that.

If not, I still have something else bothering these other 3R2s. Maybe it's behavioral after all. :(

[brewmaster15]

Steve,
Tapeworms occur without symptoms in most cases... except when you see the occasional piece of worm expelled.. Though dreaded...Tapeworms are really not a problem and as such are really easy to deal with...Since you've treated once with a prazi med and seen them expelled..I'd repeat again in 2 weeks... Theres little or no chance that tapeworms have been passed from one fish to another...it doesn't work that way ..secondary hosts are needed in almost all cases.

I don't think your issues here with going off the feed and behavior changes are the result of tapeworms... doesn't work that way....I think it more likely..stress induced by the adult fish on the smaller juvies....Aggression doesn't need to be in the form of physically attacking...it can be more in terms of intimidation that alters behavior. Do you have alot of spawning going on in the adults?


-al

[scolley]

No spawing. Once I put in the autofeeder (never did that before) to ensure enough food throughout the day for the 3R2s, the adults all took to hanging out at the feeder. And that changed the tank dynamics completely. Where everyone had their territory before, now they all crowd the feeder. All day.

So I got another feeder, and I'm gonna set it up on the opposite side of the tank to feed at the same time... hopefully spreading the fish out a bit once more.

It is worth noting that today 4 3R2s were out for the evening, manual FBW feed. And it has been WEEKS since I've seen 4 out for a feeding. So while tapeworms aren't supposed to be such a big deal, maybe they are feeling better?

We'll see what tomorrow brings. :)

[packerkid]

good luck, one of my jeuvy's acting weird and like won't even attack blood worms but i guess he likes plants better :confused:

But i hope all goes well and maybe 3 feeders AND have only 2 feeders work at a time... Then they won't fight because not every feeder will have food every time so they'll disperse!

[scolley]

Well here's an interesting development... today all 5 3R2s were out most of the day. Ever since I put them in, I've rarely (if ever) seen all 5 at once. As I stated initially, lately it's been down to 1, maybe 2.

And now there are 5.

The only thing that's changed is the deworming.

So I understand that worms aren't normally supposed to cause a behavioral change like I witnessed. But how else can it be explained?


packerkid - your idea is a good one. Thanks!

[scolley]

Well, the prazi did improve their behavior. I started seeing all 5 of the 3R2's - something I've not really seen since the day I put them in the tank.

But it didn't change their behavior enough.

It could have been behavioral, but they still just hid just TOO much, with zero interest in eating (most of them). Add to that darkening (could be caused by hiding the plants), and often adopting a head tipped downward position. I just had a gut feeling that something else was wrong.

So I continued with the prazi - I'm doing 2 consecutive 1 week courses, and figure I'll do a course again in a week. But I also hit them with 3 consecutive 2 day courses of metro. And that made a BIG difference. I started seeing a change in behavior on about the 3rd day. By the 5th day they were acting like different fish.

They come out. They eat. They swim around with the other fish, and they hang in their own little 3R2 pack too! I'm SO pleased to see this change.

So I can't say this was hex (with worms too!), but I am certain metro made a huge difference in their behavior.

Once they start eating well, I'll be able to put a bit of gel-tek on their TCB to give 'em a bit of a boost every six months or so.

[brewmaster15]

Steve,
Its possible that internal parasites like "Hex " could have been taking hold... that may have been your problem here all along with the behavior and not the tapeworms ...hard to tell..

This often occurs though when discus are stressed... Lowered immune systems from stress are a big player in most diseases issues... Hopefully things continue to improve, just keep it in mind.

glad they are doing better,
al

[MSD]

I needed to use both too so its good to deworm and then use the Metro if the symptoms of not eating and hiding persist. The Metro is like a miracle drug if the fish do have Hex, glad you seem to have things in hand.

[scolley]

The Metro is like a miracle drug if the fish do have Hex, glad you seem to have things in hand.Thanks MSD!



Steve,
Its possible that internal parasites like "Hex " could have been taking hold... that may have been your problem here all along with the behavior and not the tapeworms ...hard to tell..Well, I know few would know more than you do Al on this point. It's silly to argue with an expert. But there was the undeniable "post-prazi" departure from the weeds of the hiding fish. Now they didn't stay out, but I did see them all out at once - on multiple occasions - which was pretty much unheard of since they went in the tank. So some way or another it seemed to have SOME impact. But not like the metro. Now they come out and pretty much stay out - except when they can see me. I definately frighten a few of the 3R2s. But if they don't see me, they are out all the time. And no longer darkened. Nor resting nose tipped down.

But they aren't eating very well. I can see them nibble, which is an enormous change. Before the metro most of them never ate for a few weeks. I can only trust it will pick up with time. I've arranged for multiple - concurrent - feeding points around the tank, so they definately have their chance to get food if they want it.

As for the root cause. who's to say. They were massive skittish before, and clearly stressed in the conditions I had them in. Maybe that brought it out while they were in quarrentine. Or maybe the stress going into the large tank brought out something that had been latent in my main tank. It was there that they stopped eating, so I've got to look at that too.

But all's well that ends well. Yet I do need to figure out a way to pick up their eating. I'm not accustomed to having fish that aren't pigs. Another discus learning opportunity for me. ;-)

[waters10]

So I continued with the prazi - I'm doing 2 consecutive 1 week courses, and figure I'll do a course again in a week. But I also hit them with 3 consecutive 2 day courses of metro. And that made a BIG difference. I started seeing a change in behavior on about the 3rd day. By the 5th day they were acting like different fish.

I was reading your story and I'm glad to see everything worked out just fine!

One question though. You used both Prazi and Metro, but did you dose them at the same time? Did you remove prazi (wc or carbon) before dosing metro? Would you mind detailing exactly when and what concentration you dosed each one? The reason I'm asking is that I believe I have gill flukes and hex problems on my new setup and I'm trying to figure out how I'm going to dose both.

Thanks!

[scolley]

You used both Prazi and Metro, but did you dose them at the same time? Did you remove prazi (wc or carbon) before dosing metro? Would you mind detailing exactly when and what concentration you dosed each one?I'm happy to pass along what I did, but before I do so I've got to say that this board has a wealth of information on dosing both in the disease forum, and Al Sabetta has an outstanding write up on each in the Library section. Please read those before you consider anything I did.

I have no chemical filtration, so there was no carbon to remove. Though I did modify my w/c routine quite a bit.

I began Prazi-Pro at at concentration of 1 teaspoon per 20 gallons of tank water. I stopped water changes for two days, then resumed my normal routine of approx. 30% per day. When seven days had passed, I considered that my 1st course of Prazi.

I began my 2nd course of Prazi with the intention of overlapping with Metro. So I started as before, same concentration, same 1st two days of no w/c. But on the fourth day I stopped w/c's and hit the tank with a whopping 400mg (not 250) or Metro per 10 gallons of water. Because I have a planted tank, and was concerned about my biofilter, algal blooms and possible oxygen reduction, I turned off my lights and put in a big air stone. No feeding of fish.

After two days I did a 90-95% water change. Hit the tank with a normal (though still heavy) 250mg per 10 gallons of Metro. And under the assumption that under a normal regimen including water changes, the Prazi concentrations would have been reduced, I only added 1 teaspoon per 40 gallons. But I did turn on the lights for one day (didn't want to kill the plants), yet they were off the next day, and kept on the airstone. Very, very little food provided for the fish.

After two days, my 7 day 2nd course of Prazi was complete, as was my 2nd 2 day course of Metro. I did a 90-95% w/c and dosed with another 250mg Metro per 10 gallons tank water. Airstone stayed on, no water changes. But I turned my back on lights, and fed as normal. I can't prove it, but I think Prazi has a limited effect on a biofilter (judging by algal growth) but Metro does not.

After two more days a 90-95% w/c and my 3rd course of Prazi was done. Airstone off, light on, water change routine went back to normal.

All that was about a week ago. So because I've got a planted tank, and since there has been a week's break, I'm going to swing back today and do a 3rd - and final - 7day course of Prazi. Then, hopefully, I'll be done.


I've been away on business this week, and haven't been able to observe the fish. But this morning I can say the while one 3R2 is still hiding, four are out and about. And the HUGE thrill I got was upon feeding their FBW, two of the 3R2s that used to hide ALL the time were not just eating, but were battling the big fish to get their mouths on the frozen cube! They were not happy with just waiting for bits to fall. This was actual aggressive eating! It's the first time I've seen that in these fish.

It's hard not to be happy about that. ;)

[wgtaylor]

I'm happy to pass along what I did, but before I do so I've got to say that this board has a wealth of information on dosing both in the disease forum, and Al Sabetta has an outstanding write up on each in the Library section. Please read those before you consider anything I did.


I began Prasi at at concentration of 1 oz. per 20 gallons of tank water.

Hi Steve, interesting post, glad your discus are picking up. Question, did you use prazi (powder) or prazi-pro (liquid) at a concentration of 1 oz per 20 gal, or was that a typo, should be (1 fl oz per 120 gal) or 1 teaspoon per 20 gal?

Bill

[scolley]

Hi Steve, interesting post, glad your discus are picking up. Question, did you use prazi (powder) or prazi-pro (liquid) at a concentration of 1 oz per 20 gal, or was that a typo, should be (1 fl oz per 120 gal) or 1 teaspoon per 20 gal?

BillNo typo there Bill. Good catch! That was a flat out mistake. I've gone back and corrected it, lest it cause any additional confusion.

To make things even more clear, I used Prazi-pro, the liguid for worms. And Fish Zole brand, 250 mg Metronidazole tablets, for Hex. To get the Fish Zole dissolved, I put the tabs between some sheets of paper towels and pounded the heck out of them with a hammer until I had a fine powder. Then I filled a tea kettle with tap water, got it nice and hot, and mixed as much power with hot water as would dissolve in a big bowl, and then repeat. To get the hot water cool enough for the tank, I dumped ice cubes in until proper temp. And I wasn't worried about chlorine because I had just done a huge tap water w/c, so there was plenty of de-chlor (Prime) already in the tank.

[wgtaylor]

Ya Steve I know how easy it is to make a typo or "just a flat out mistake" ha, ha. After I posted my question I had to go back and edit my typo. I heard prazi is pretty safe stuff to use and was curious if a 7x dose was tolerable for discus :) , just kidding. I've enjoyed reading your posts. Take care, Bill

[waters10]

Thanks, Steve.

I have the same stuff you have, prazi pro and fish zole metro 250mg tablets.

I'm still a bit reluctant to use both together, so I'm only using metro to soak frozen food right now. Even though their behavior has improved (more due to prazi, I'd guess) and they are actively looking for food, but they are spitting a lot! Specially FBW. I'm tending to use metro on the water, I just want to wait a little longer. I'm only on 3rd day of prazi. I might start metro on the 5th day ... I'm planning to run 3 weekly treatments of prazi as well. Haven't decided if I'll do metro more than a week yet.

Thanks!

[scolley]

I have the same stuff you have, prazi pro and fish zole metro 250mg tablets.

I'm still a bit reluctant to use both together, so I'm only using metro to soak frozen food right now.Hey, I'm happy to post my own experiences. Problem with that, or course, is that I'm a sample population of one. Anyone with ANY knowledge of statistics will tell you that is NO indicator of future events. That said...

I'm inclined to think that I've got an extreme case. Planted tank (NOT typical discus w/c and/or feeding regimen) with 3R2's (NOT the easiest fish to raise apparently). So, if a given medical regimen worked for me, then given similar conditions (prior fish health, favorable genetics, stable and suitable tank conditions) a similar medical regimen should pose no additional risk for you.

Then again I'm a novice. And my experience is a sample of one. Good luck!

[MSD]

As you said earlier Scolley, Al's posts on the subject in the library, the stickies and the pointed questions he asks to get information helped me to learn what I do to find and administer the best treatment. We all all lucky to have this forum.