Question .. My Fishless tank cycle

[Esquire]

Ok I'm going on about 6 - 7 weeks with this cycle.
I'm feeding ammonia at .5 ppm ever 2 days and my ammonia goes from .5 - 0 in that 2 day period. Ammonia is being used.
My Nitrites went up to about 5. and have now fallin to .8

My Nitates started at 7. and have dropped to 5.

I think this is all normal so far, i think.
Now I'm still waiting for my Nitrates to rise.

Q....How high do they need to go before this tank is ready for a water change and fish.

Thanks

[Don Trinko]

The nitrates should increase unless you are doing water changes.
The amount of ammonia you add will determine the size of your biofilter. You can have a cycled tank that will only suport a few small fish and get a mini cycle untill the biofilter builds up or you can have an enormous biofilter that will die down when you stop adding ammonia and put in fish.
Someone out there will know how much ammonia per gallon but I don't.
Don T.

[Valik]

You are right about the size of the biofilter however that shouldn't be a huge issue since once you have a established cycle going it should be able to adapt very quickly to a new waste load. It is usually just getting the initial colony going that takes the time. That is assuming the waste load isn't HUGE or the colony isn't super TINY.

Matt

[Valik]

Sorry and to answer your question you should be fine to do a WC and add fish as long as you have nitrates and zero or near zero on your ammonia and nitrites. Do you have plants in the tank? Something must be eating some of the nitrates if you keep adding ammonia and your nitrates are dropping a little and not rising.

[Esquire]

No plants, this is a empty grow out 55 gal tank with a Aquaclear 110 filter with glass bio and foam only, no carbon being used.

So i'm ok to do a water change and add fish now?
I thought my nitrates had to go off the the chart first? Then water change and add fish.

thanks for any help.

[Don Trinko]

Nitrates are only poisonous in very large values but most discus keepers try to keep it under 20. As long as ammonia and nitrites are 0 adding fish is fine. It is always a good idea to test water parameters often during the initial phases of an aquarium and whenever you add fish. If yo do get an ammonia or nitrite spike WC and/or chemicals can be used to control it untill your biofilter catches up.
Without WC (water changes) or plants the nitrate should gradualy grow. If yours is decreasing I would wonder why. Some resins will also remove nitrates. Don T.

[susantroy1]

Ok I'm going on about 6 - 7 weeks with this cycle.
I'm feeding ammonia at .5 ppm ever 2 days and my ammonia goes from .5 - 0 in that 2 day period. Ammonia is being used.
My Nitrites went up to about 5. and have now fallin to .8

My Nitates started at 7. and have dropped to 5.

I think this is all normal so far, I think.
Now I'm still waiting for my Nitrates to rise.

Q....How high do they need to go before this tank is ready for a water change and fish.

Thanks

Esquire,

I think .5ppm is really on the light side for NH4. Normal fish less cycles shoot for 4-5ppm NH4 levels. This will really get your bioload off to a solid start. My concern would be that you add your fish load to the bio filter and then all the food that has to be introduced and I would not be surprised if you end up with NH4 spikes along with poor H20 quality, simply because your filter is not at optimum capacity. (which is less than desirable by the way IMO). I went through a fish less cycle for my 140 and added 12 ml pure NH4 to obtain my 4-5 ppm of NH4. Once my N02 came back down (it was in fact off the charts by the way) I would test My Bio load by adding another 12ml of NH4 and 6-12hrs later it was back to 0-.5ppm, as soon as my N02 fell back to 0-.5 as well in the same time frame I NEW my cycle was complete. I continued to add N04up until the day before I added my livestock. Now I never had even a hint of a spike in either NH4/N02 If you overdue your bio load the bacteria that isn't required simply dies off to support only the levels of NH4 that your fish are currently producing. Thats why you can add ALL your livestock at once instead of slowly adding livestock to allow your Bio filter to "catch up" Thats the beauty of a fish less cycle. IMO due yourself a favor and test your bio load by the method above if it takes longer than 12 hrs to see dramatic reductions in both NH4/N02...continue to feed your filter until you do. You won't be sorry.

[Esquire]

Esquire,

I think .5ppm is really on the light side for NH4. Normal fish less cycles shoot for 4-5ppm NH4 levels. This will really get your bioload off to a solid start. My concern would be that you add your fish load to the bio filter and then all the food that has to be introduced and I would not be surprised if you end up with NH4 spikes along with poor H20 quality, simply because your filter is not at optimum capacity. (which is less than desirable by the way IMO). I went through a fish less cycle for my 140 and added 12 ml pure NH4 to obtain my 4-5 ppm of NH4. Once my N02 came back down (it was in fact off the charts by the way) I would test My Bio load by adding another 12ml of NH4 and 6-12hrs later it was back to 0-.5ppm, as soon as my N02 fell back to 0-.5 as well in the same time frame I NEW my cycle was complete. I continued to add N04up until the day before I added my livestock. Now I never had even a hint of a spike in either NH4/N02 If you overdue your bio load the bacteria that isn't required simply dies off to support only the levels of NH4 that your fish are currently producing. Thats why you can add ALL your livestock at once instead of slowly adding livestock to allow your Bio filter to "catch up" Thats the beauty of a fish less cycle. IMO due yourself a favor and test your bio load by the method above if it takes longer than 12 hrs to see dramatic reductions in both NH4/N02...continue to feed your filter until you do. You won't be sorry.

I started off with 4. ppm but as the cycle progressed it was reduced to .5 as most of the "current" articles suggest when doing a fish-less cycle. Many of the older articles I read said to maintain the higher ppm but current articles suggest those high levels after the cycle starts are toxic and to reduce the AM ppm.

[susantroy1]

I started off with 4. ppm but as the cycle progressed it was reduced to .5 as most of the "current" articles suggest when doing a fish-less cycle. Many of the older articles I read said to maintain the higher ppm but current articles suggest those high levels after the cycle starts are toxic and to reduce the AM ppm.


Toxic to whom??? if in fact your bio load is digesting that amount within a 12 hr period than how can it be toxic? See my logic? All I can tell you is I fed my bio filter 4-5 ppm every 6-12 hrs or so (indicated by a reduction to 0-.5 ppm NH4/N02 levels) up until the introduction of livestock.
Here is the trick, you have to be religious about feeding your Bio filter after you achieve these results or the N-Bacteria falls off very rapidly... Ever hear of folks on these sites claiming they thought their cycles where complete only to add fish and have a spike?? You miss one shift in the feeding of NH4 to your filter and it will lose its bio filtration capacity. If in fact you reduce your NH4 levels as indicated by these "articles" you are effectively cutting your bio filtration capabilities. I would suggest you add to prior levels and let the Bio filter build back up and every time it drops add more....back to those levels. Watch the N02 levels sky rocket as they should. If they drop rapidly with in 8-12 hrs than you can rest assured your ready for livestock.

all the best

Troy

[Esquire]

That makes sense,
Now let me digest this......

[Esquire]

Looking at my test records i can see that my tanks ability to eat ammonia has dropped off to about .5 ppm a day or less where before it was eating about 1 per day.
I guess this is due to me dropping the amount of ammonia to .5 ppm every 2 days. When I did this I was ending up with a 0 ppm reading before adding more ammonia.

So are you saying I should slowly increase the amount of Ammonia to say 1.0 and wait until it almost reads 0 then increase to 1.25 until it again almost reads 0 then to 1.5 and so on until i get up to 3 - 4 and then I will be ready for WC & fish?

thks

[Graham]

Remember that the size of the bio-film is directly related to it's available food source.........low food = low nitrifier levels.

[susantroy1]

Looking at my test records i can see that my tanks ability to eat ammonia has dropped off to about .5 ppm a day or less where before it was eating about 1 per day.
I guess this is due to me dropping the amount of ammonia to .5 ppm every 2 days. When I did this I was ending up with a 0 ppm reading before adding more ammonia.

So are you saying I should slowly increase the amount of Ammonia to say 1.0 and wait until it almost reads 0 then increase to 1.25 until it again almost reads 0 then to 1.5 and so on until i get up to 3 - 4 and then I will be ready for WC & fish?

thks

There are two different methods that you can choose from:

1, Force feed your Bio Filter 4-5 PPM every 24 hrs regardless of your readings until you see a drop in NH4 levels within 12 hrs or less (0-.5 ppms)

2, Feed your Bio Filter 4-5 PPM NH4 then Wait until you see you levels drop to .5-1 ppm before dosing again up to 4-5 ppm

The first method will force your Bio load to increase faster than the second However, I would choose the second for you, sense you already have N-bacteria started. any level higher than 4-5 ppm may harm your Bacteria.

REMEMBER!! do not let your NH4 levels fall to 0 otherwise they will begin to die off again. once you see your levels drop off in a 12 hr or sooner period you can then double check your N02 levels to ensure you have enough N02 bacteria as well. once both NH4/N02 levels decrease with each 12 hr period then, time the introduction of your livestock to replace the NH4 that you have been adding and your done. I would suggest a 50% WC just prior to introducing your livestock just to make sure you have flushed you NH4 and the livestock can begin their production.

All the Best

Troy

[Esquire]

Thank You for the help

[Esquire]

Update:

Sunday I dosed my tank to 4-5 ppm mh4

Monday it read 3.7 ppm No2 was .5

Tues 2 ppm

Wed 1.5 ppm

Thurs 1.5 ppm

Fri 1.2 ppm

Is this normal for it to slow down stall around 1.5 or is there something I need to do?

thks

[Esquire]

punt?

[susantroy1]

I'm sorry Esquire, I had not checked back sense your last post. I would continue to up your NH4 to 4-5 ppm and continue this as it falls back. keep an eye out for your N02 to spike if it does, watch for it to drop... Don't rush this stage make sure your bio filter is working effectively. Don't worry about WCs as you don't have any livestock in there anyway. You will know your N-Bacteria is fully kickin butt when NH4 falls to 0

All The Best

Troy

[Esquire]

Thanks,

I have dosed back up to 5 ppm.
I will post progress.

[Esquire]

Friday 12th I dosed back up to 5. ppm

today Tues

Amm 3.5 ppm

No2 1. ppm

No3 7. ppm


This seems to be moving very slow?

[dan3949]

I would agree. It is taking a long time to cycle this tank.

I am wondering if you have adequate filtration?

I recently finished cycling a 125 gallon tank with 2 Emperor 400 bio-wheel filters. It took 4.5 weeks to fully cycle the tank. I also used a fishless cycle.

I spiked ammonia to 3 ppm. After 1 week, I could not get the ammonia above 1 ppm, even after adding 2X the theoretical amount required to hit 3 ppm. The ammonia would be back to 0 ppm in less than 12 hours. However, it took 3 weeks to get the nitrites to 0.

[Apistomaster]

Remember that the size of the bio-film is directly related to it's available food source.........low food = low nitrifier levels.

Esquire,
Graham has made an important point here.

The nitrifying bacteria colonies develop into a biofilm over every surface exposed to your water and these lifeforms need a constant and sufficient source of food.
There are many ways to accomplish feeding the fishless tank but my problem with the ammonia only method is that it takes so much diligence. It really doesn't hurt to add a small salad shrimp or two along with ammonia solution to ensure a constant source of ammonia. I happen to think a biological source like shrimp meant helps create a more diverse range of nitrifying bacteria a little quicker than an ammonia only method does.

I have never found the fishless cycle method satisfactory but I keep many aquariums so I always have places to break in new filters which I just move to newly set up aquariums along with some fish. Seems to me like you could add some fish at this point and manage any blips with water changes and just begin enjoying your aquarium.

[Esquire]

Thanks guys.
This tank cycle has been going on for 2 months, Grrrrrrrr.
It's been about 30 years since my last tank ( discus ) and the info has changed so much. I have never cycled a tank with ammonia before,

My filtration is a Aqua clear 500 on my 55 gal tank at 90 F.
I doubled the bio glass and left the sponge in the filter. No carbon is being used. It's running all the time.
I also have a air-stone at the far end of the tank.

I decided to do a 50% water change yesterday Tues.
Moved my ammonia to 2. ppm and added a shrimp.
This is a bare grow-out tank so any mess the shrimp makes can be easily cleaned up.
I agree that this should make for a better bio mix and should also jump start this difficult tank. After 2 days or so I'll remove whats left of the shrimp.
When my tank eats 1 - .5 ppm in 8 hrs and my nitrites are .5 or less I think it will be ready for a 50 - 75 % water-change and temp drop to 86 F then fish.

Does this sound like a good plan to you guys?

[susantroy1]

Thanks guys.
This tank cycle has been going on for 2 months, Grrrrrrrr.
It's been about 30 years since my last tank ( discus ) and the info has changed so much. I have never cycled a tank with ammonia before,

My filtration is a Aqua clear 500 on my 55 gal tank at 90 F.
I doubled the bio glass and left the sponge in the filter. No carbon is being used. It's running all the time.
I also have a air-stone at the far end of the tank.

I decided to do a 50% water change yesterday Tues.
Moved my ammonia to 2. ppm and added a shrimp.
This is a bare grow-out tank so any mess the shrimp makes can be easily cleaned up.
I agree that this should make for a better bio mix and should also jump start this difficult tank. After 2 days or so I'll remove whats left of the shrimp.
When my tank eats 1 - .5 ppm in 8 hrs and my nitrites are .5 or less I think it will be ready for a 50 - 75 % water-change and temp drop to 86 F then fish.

Does this sound like a good plan to you guys?

Sounds right by me... I think your filter is ready to tackle just about anything you could toss at it. Good cycle Esquire, Doubt you will ever see a spike of any kind:) Just be careful with the meds if you have to ever use em... I'm always scanning the meds dept to see which one hurt the Filter and which don't.

All The Best

Troy