Is lowering water level really necessary?

[ShinShin]

Only a discussion:

Not wishing to hijack another thread, nor to challenge or discredit another's methods, I ask myself this question everytime I see this suggestion offered. Is lowering the water level in a breeding tank really necessary?

I fully understand the thinking behind the statement and the theory on which it may be based, but is it at all more than just a thought. Looking at my own experiences in breeding discus in tanks from 18 gal to 55 gal, I have never found lowering the water level to be practical, nor a need. The thought really never entered my mind.

What attracts the fry to the discus? Many say that the fry are attracted to a dark body in the tank. Maybe so, but I have always had a Hydo Sponge or other black sponge in the tank. While a dark form may be part of the answer, another source of attraction, and I believe to be the main reason fry attatch, is vibration from the parents. Hence, if an attatchment problem exists in a breeding tank, lowering the airflow to the sponge makes more sense to me.

I have had pairs spawn in full 55gal tanks and attatchment was never a problem. If one thinks about natural spawnings and applies the "lowering the tank level" principle to that, a natural spawning in the wild could never take place. How do the fry find their parents in the vastness of the flooded rivers in which they inhabit. It would seem impossible.

What do you think? Why do you think it?

Mat

[vera]

i agree with u90% ,fry of snow white in my tank had no problem to attach to a parent in my 20gal

http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o192/vera80/snowwhite.jpg

,but must admit it takes an effort and wiliness from the parent to take them on "board" and fry looking for food -i was watching my blue Discus on a first day of a free swim -dad was passing near each and every fry almost on his side so their ltl hooks on the back of their heads will stick to mucus of the parent-they repeat it every time

http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o192/vera80/IMG_0238-1.jpg


but if the volume of the water is too big fry can be over exhausted keeping it straight and fall lifeless at the bottom-so if such is about to happen i reduce the water level

[brewmaster15]

Beautiful Pics Vera!

Mat,

Lowering the water is something I find very useful with albino fry...Its pretty much the only time I've used it.. The conventional thoughts on it are that the albino fry eyes don't see as well as non-albino at least in the beginning... by lowering the water they BUMP into the parents easier to start feeding.... is it true?????...can't tell you except in my case, that when I raised the alenquer frys...The wild type had no problem finding the parents.. but the albinos were swimming aimlessly until I lowered the water until the Adults were practically on their side...then the albino fry attached. FWIW.....those albino fry see fine as juvies and on into adults....just seems like theres a delay eye development.

As an unrelated side note.,.. when I bred albino angels...getting them to eat involved loading that tank with so much BBS that fry literally bumped into it...again they just don't seem to see as well as wild type...this eye problem I believe is a well documented issue with albinism in general.


hth,
al

[Graham]

would it not be possible that the closer the parents are to wild phenotype the more pheromones that they would be giving off to attract the fry.

[vera]

Thank u Al:)

[brewmaster15]

Hi Graham,


would it not be possible that the closer the parents are to wild phenotype the more pheromones that they would be giving off to attract the fry. Theres always the possibilities that discus behavior is affected by pheromones....but in the case of my alenquers... The parents were wild type, F1 cross from an albino and alenquer... The fry that were wild type had no problem finding the parents...Their albino siblings did..

Mat asked earlier what attracted the fry to the parents... I believe its largely visual... Adults shimmy alot...they tremble and thats signal to the fry both visual and thru other sense...... I think when my albino fry were swimming aimlessly..they just couldn't find the parent sending the signal...less water volume forces them into closer proximity to dinner.:)

Maybe other strains have a a similar developmental lag in visual accuity which is why it may be helpful.

I have another wacky theory on it though..Might as well share it it.... This applies to Non- albino fry...The whole thing may have to do with slime coat and PH.. Often times when Fry don't attach its noticed that the parents are not making slime to feed the off spring.. In the old days there were some breeders that would actually use Tetracycline to get the parents to make slime......Its an irritant and does cause them to make more slime. This was used reportedly on Pigeon based fish.

Its also thought that acidic water necessitates a heavy slime coat...so if the hobbyists fish is in non-acidic water the slime coat may be insufficient to get the fry attached...... Now the hobbyists by chance lowers the water thinking the fry will find the parents and attach better.....This forces the fry to feed on the parents or starve... and guess what the act of fry feeding does...Irritates the parents and stimulates them to make more slime.... The whole fry feeding off discus may have evolved as nothing more than a response to an irritant..

I'd love for people to share their pH levels when they are having trouble getting fry to attach.

Okay...so theres my hypothetical Ramble of the day.:D:D:D:D

-al

[Peachtree Discus]

While a dark form may be part of the answer, another source of attraction, and I believe to be the main reason fry attatch, is vibration from the parents.


i would agree with this statement. have you noticed, if u generate current fish will automatically swim against the current. i believe this is related.

i have a excellent pair or blue parents that generate a pulse in the water about every 1 second that seems to attract the fry. they always have a pretty good yield. i also have a less experience pair of red that do not generate the pulse and their yield is usually not as good.

I think lowering the water just helps out a bit. maybe lowering the water increases amount of current that is generated by the parents constant fin movement...i would guess that the fry also go by sight.

[Rod]

al, you may well be on the right track there mate re the slower developing eyes on albino discus, my results are the same as yours. Normals straight on, albinos wandered a bit for the 1st day. But i never lower water level or remove dark objects or slow down filter flow etc, the next day the albinos find there way and attach just fine. Same with pigeons and other strains they normally attach well enough without any intervention from me. I like to use dark tinted glass bottoms in the breed tanks of pbs and goldens and light colored discus, it causes the parents to look much darker making them more visible to the fry.
My normal breeding parameters are ph 6, 100ms conductivity. Slime production never seems to be a problem with my discus, you can actually see the thick grey coating of it on my pairs.
Vera, i think you are right on there too, the parents do have to be willing to do the whole raising thing. I've seen babies wandering in corners not because they can't find the parents, but because the parents are attacking and killing them. They are fleeing for there lives. Beautiful fry pics Vera :)

[ShinShin]

A side thought on the albino fry - perhaps that's nature's way of culling the weak (in a natural setting).

Mat

[CARY_GLdiscus]

I agree that its needed with some pairs but not for others IME it depends on the pair not the strain / color type! albinos, brown base, pb base. I mean if You think about it its just like people. some parents are just better then others no matter the Type !
I mean come on look what happened to Matt : ) LOL


hth
cary

[Discus-Hans]

I mean come on look what happened to Matt : ) LOL

cary

ha ha ha ha ha sorry Matt but I liked that one.

1. The slime (mucus sp?) to feed the fry develops best by a Ph between 5.8 and 6.5, that's a standard thing every breeder knows.

2. The smaller the water volume, the easier the fry (luck???) go on the parents.

Now you get an email from a hobbyist they have fry and have no idea what to do to get the fry on the parents, what do you advice????

Play with the Ph with the change to let them kill the whole tank???? Including parents.
Or advice to make the space smaller, they get some fry on the sides and they are happy........

As soon as the first fry start irritating the parents sides you can see the slime growing and it looks they kind of "smell" it, next day they are all on the sides of the parents.

I think if you've to pick between option 1 or 2 the answer is easy.

Al (sorry bro) but talking about Tetracycline on this forum to use for this problem....I wouldn't have done it. I'm going to buy stocks in tetracycline, they will do good next week. And in a few weeks we get people with bacterial problems that is in no way to solve anymore.
I presume the report that came in from sources were the Discus were constantly swimming in this medicine.

I've the breeder racks here constant on Ph7 to Ph7.5 cond. 400ms
Red, Silver, Brown or Blue fry goes on the sides with no problem in the 20 gallon.

Hans

[ShinShin]

Cary's right. I never attached. I was a bottle baby. ;) See what happens?

Discus are found in all 3 water types in their natural habitat - blackwater, whitewater, and clearwater. I believe most are in blackwater out of the 3. Whitewater has practically no visability, and blackwater is very dark a few feet down with very low visibility, yet discus do very well in the vastness of these habitats.

I believe that sight is secondary to vibrations picked up by the lateral line of the fry. My 20H breedings tanks are painted black, and most of the discus that I have bred are varieties that darken quite a bit, like cobalts, red turquois, SS's, wild type blues and browns. In low light, sometimes the parents were barely visible to me, yet the fry always attached. I would be willing to bet that attatchment would occur in alost no light.

I was hoping that there would be replies that were more specific to "why" water level lowering is needed.

Mat

[brewmaster15]

Hans,

al (sorry bro) but talking about Tetracycline on this forum to use for this problem....I wouldn't have done it. I thought twice about it...:( but it illustrates well how irritation causes the slime coat to shed more, and in science we don't "not" disclose something .... Its not something that I agree with on the tetracycline but if it was done...it should be known. ..Antibiotics should be used judiciously when all other courses of action have been tried. ... I look at this as I do with hormones...I don't agree with the use of hormones in fish and the more we discuss them the more likely hood some will try them.....but also the more informed the public will become about the negatives.....if ever we are to take this hobby to the next level....intelligent discussions ...even on unsavory topics need to take place.

Please do note that I said.."
In the old days there were some breeders that would actually use Tetracycline to get the parents to make slime......Its an irritant and does cause them to make more slime. This was used reportedly on Pigeon based fish. I didn't say it was a practice still used...who knows though! Theres other side effects to using tetracycline ...Being an irritant...many a discus have leaped or crashed to their death when they were being treated for bacterial infections.


Hey but wait a min Hans... off topic here:D..... I also heard that Donating To Simplydiscus.com has been shown to increase the longevity of your Discus;)...by giving People the tools and info they need to keep their discus healthy and well.:D:D:D:D:D....think there will be a run on that too?:) ....Just kidding everyone, couldn't resist a shameless plug for the forum!

Cya,
al

[Roxanne]

Just regarding the tetracyclines thing...I am personally allergic to tetracyclines. I get hot cold shivers, itching all over, can't stop shaking. Makes you wonder how the fish might feel...Also, albino people are photosensitive, why not fish?

[rfeiller]

albinoism in animals seems to parallell undesireable traits, deafness, blindness and many other deformities, it in itself is a deformity.

i have found in my experience, with no albinos, that some discus fry aimless roam around the tank and i found that they were distracted by the air aggitating the water. once the air is turned down the fry were able to detect the quivering of the parent fish. while it is true that it is said that they are attracted to the darkness of the parent fish, i believe at most it is just part of the parents communication. if you watch fry feeding, when one of the parents has had enough abuse they will shack their bodies to show rejection to the fry. the other parent will have many times gently quivered to attract their attention. some discus of course are not capable of turning dark and it doesn't seem to hamper the fry from feeding. i also believe there is a familiar scent produced by the parent that is unique to each of the adults. when the fry are mouthed. the bond is not the strongest, but you will notice in a large tank where more then one pair is carrying fry. the fry do not have a problem identifying their parents and vice versa.
just some ramblings

Al's thoughts i believe are valid others i know have used it for the same purpose

rich

[John_Nicholson]

Mat don't worry I did attach and look how puny I turned out...LOL.

I have never lowed the tank water level. The largest tank that I ever raised a spawn in was 120 gallons. Big but a lot smaller then the Amazon. BUT I have never dealt with albinos. I have had some very, very clean PB's breed with great attachment. I guess I would try the lower water level trick if I had a pair that just was not getting it done, but after that failed I would just raise artificially. Its not a hard thing to do.

-john