Fish rubbing there face against hard surface?

[Dave27]

I have 2 fish that occasionally rub their face on the top of a 4" PVC pipe that sits in the tank.
Nothing obsessive, but I see them doing it a few times a day usually a couple of times in a session.

6 discus
50 gal grow out tank
86 degrees
PH 7.0 - 7.2 mix of RO & tap with prime.
35% water changes every other day or more
Vacuum twice a day.
Sponge filter & hang on filter with pre sponge.

[susantroy1]

Something seems to be irritating them....

What are your nitrite levels? how about the amount of food you give them? If you are growing them out than your feeding heavy and as you said your vacuuming twice a day. there may be allot of protein excess which will be turned into N04 which in turn is broken down as N02 (as you know) could this be irritation of N02 levels? are you aging your water prior to WCs? I find the fish are much more "comfortable" with this process over straight treated tap.
How often are you rinsing your filters out? Sponges need to be squeezed out in tank H20 often to keep the pours open and keep them running at high efficiency.
If these areas have been addressed, I may simply add salt to produce a healthier slim coat and ease any irritable levels on them. and finally may look into Prazipro for flukes if you haven't done so already.

All The Best

Troy

[Dave27]

Yes 4 - 5 feedings a day
Frozen Bloodworms once a day then assorted omega one flakes, super veggie, color and marine with garlic.

NO 2 .3
NO 3 5.0
NO 4 .02

I'm aging my Tap a day. WC is RO & aged tap mix with prime.

I rinse my pre filter sponge with every WC.
I rinse the sponge in the hang on filter every 3 weeks.
Recently added an additional sponge filter to the tank a few days ago.
What type of salt and at what dosage do you recommend?
also
IF we go to
Prazipro, any special instructions for this or just go by the instruction on the bottle.

Thanks for the help Troy!

[susantroy1]

Dave,

Are you testing with Liquid test kits or strips? Liquid is far more accurate. That said, your N04/N02 should be 0..... if they are not, I would recommend upping your WCs to offset the higher elevations of NH4/N02. Once you bring them down, your guys will be fine. Sounds to me they don't care to much for the elevated NH4/N02 levels. This is where you should address your Bio filter capabilities. Sounds like your thinking along the same lines as myself due to you mentioning adding the additional sponge.
Couple of things to remember... always squeeze out your sponges in old tank water (you probably know that) when I was starting out I cleaned out my prefilter sponges in the canister with tap and it played havoc with keeping a good N-bacteria colony established. also when feeding this much you may want to consider a "prefilter" sponge for your HOB (hang on back) screened pickup end cap. This will prevent allot of excess food from being taken up into your filter and sitting in there for 3 weeks contributing to your elevated NH4/N02 levels. Its really easy to pop it off and give it a couple of squeezes during Wcs.
I Think everyone should have PraziPro on hand so when you need it you have it, however you should not need it in this case, most all your other guys would be flashing if that where the case. My guess is that these two may be a bit more sensitive to water quality than the others.

All The Best

Troy

[Dave27]

Using API Liquid tests but as you probably know when using Amquel or Prime they give you false readings on Amm, so I also have the Seachem Amm test kit and the Seachem AMM alert hanging in the tank.
The Alert is right on with the seachem AMM test kit so I recommend it highly.

As far as the NH4 & NO2 that amount is in the Tap water and Prime is making it usable.

I have a pre filter sponge on the hang on the back and all sponges gets squeezed in removed tank water, the pre sponge with every water change.

Thanks for the advice

[susantroy1]

Dave,

Good points, I might consider simply increasing your wc's and if it continues perhaps a salt treatment. Last step I would be treating for flukes, I recently bought a Microscope and I have to tell you, its very nice to be able to pinpoint any ailments that may come along. I would highly recommend one as you can then treat for the specific ailments.

All The Best

Troy

[Dave27]

Sounds very advanced as I'm a novice, but I'm willing to look into it.

Any advice or recommendations on equipment on that would be welcome!
How do you know what is what or what to look for.
Is there a reference some place and what the procedure is?
How do you tell whats on the fish?
I have many questions but not enough knowledge on the subject to ask them.

[susantroy1]

Dave take a look at this thread: http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?t=56132
This is where I really began to understand that a Microscope is really a must have if you want to accurately treat Discus symptoms instead of getting 10 different answers as to what my fish may or may not have. one of these and I know for sure. Here is what I picked up.:http://cgi.ebay.com/40-400X-BIOLOGY-STUDENT-COMPOUND-MICROSCOPE-HIGH-POWER_W0QQitemZ170268591241QQihZ007QQcategoryZ4874 1QQcmdZViewItemQQ_trksidZp1742.m153.l1262

It also came with 100 blank slides and covers It will do all I need it to without breaking the bank. Kinda neat looking at fish poop up close:o Wife just shakes her head but hey its also is a great teaching tool for my 5 yr old.

All The Best

Troy

[Greg Richardson]

I was told if it's right around the face not to worry about it.
Will, over time when my fish have done that I followed that advice and never have had any problems.

[Dave27]

Well I upped my WC, 50 % a day, but I see other fish doing this.
Fish goes close to heater cord or edge of something then shoots past it trying to rub something off.
Maybe does it 3 times or so then stops. I can not see any patterns to this or obsessive fish doing this non stop.

Again all seem happy and eating well no signs of irritation on the skin.

[susantroy1]

Well I upped my WC, 50 % a day, but I see other fish doing this.
Fish goes close to heater cord or edge of something then shoots past it trying to rub something off.
Maybe does it 3 times or so then stops. I can not see any patterns to this or obsessive fish doing this non stop.

Again all seem happy and eating well no signs of irritation on the skin.

Dave,

Keep a close eye on them.... if no change after your increased WCs first one to stop eating or stays away from the group I'd treat em for flukes with PraziPro, Its Bio filter friendly so no worries there.

All The Best

Troy

[Dave27]

Thanks I will

Is this treatment very stressful on the fish other than the obvious fact they are being medicated?

Also whats the procedure and length of the treatment?

Thanks as always

[susantroy1]

Dave,

You would treat the whole tank, I used 5 Ml per 20 gal. as directed (1Tsp per 20G) No WC for 2 days and then 50% on day 3. Retreat once a week for the next 3 weeks and your done. Here is a link if you can't find it locally: http://www.bigalsonline.com/edealinv/servlet/ExecMacro?omni_scAdd=scAdd&nurl=control%2FBrowseCatalog.vm&eurl=control%2FBrowseCatalog.vm&rurl=control%2FBrowseCatalog.vm&ctl_nbr=3684&queryType=0&path=&offset=&hits=&sortby=&query=prazipro&submit.x=12&submit.y=5

PS. no not stressfull at all. it is very easy on them.

All The Best

Troy

[Dave27]

Are you feeding lightly during the treatment days?

[susantroy1]

No, just keep up your normal waste pickup daily and simply treat whatever volume of water you remove (Thats why instead of 1Tsp per 20G I converted it into 5Ml per 20G that way say if you take 4g out in waste simply retreat with 1 Ml of Prazipro). after the 2nd day then resume your 50% H20 change.

All The Best

Troy