Seeking Volunteers: Need Auto W/C information

[scolley]

I'm working on an automatic water-change product, as I've mentioned in another thread here (http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?t=66447). But to do that effectively, to adequately address the needs of the market, I need more information.

I've got two tanks at the moment, and each tank has what I consider to be auto-water change systems. They automatically perform reasonably high volume water changes on a regular basis. I never have to touch them except for routine maintenance - like changing filters once a year. The water in my tanks gets changed without my intervention. And I don't get water on the floor. ;) The simplicity this brings to my discus keeping is wonderful.

But that's what "automatic water changing" means to me. What does it mean to you?

I'm looking for volunteers (in the USA) - people that are either interested in automatic water changing, or already have it - that can spend 15-20 minutes with me in a phone interview. If that's you, and you want to help, please send me a PM.

I'll interview you at whatever time we agree. To protect your anonymity, I'll provide a toll free number that you can call, and we can use the username that you use here. Even then, I'll consider any information you provide completely confidential.

Information that I'll be seeking:

How you change your water now. Everything about it.
What you would be seeking in an Automatic Water Change product.
Specifically what benefits you believe you would receive from such a product.
What your expectations are regarding the cost/value of such a product.


IMO the market today does not present hobbyists, or small scale professional importer/breeders, with a good auto water change product. It provides parts. That's how I built both of my systems, by creating a design and assembling the parts. That's not a product, that advanced DIY.

I've already purchased most of the automatic water change "products" on the market as a part of my research. I don't use any of them. IMO they are inadequate, and still require a good deal of innovation on the part of the consumer to use. They really are just "parts" too, and not a holistic solution.

If you would be willing to provide me with your own perspective about what Automatic Water Change is, or should be for you, I'd be deeply grateful. And it might even lead to getting a nice solution into the hands of hobbyists like us. So, if you'd like to help, please send me a PM.

Thanks in advance!

[scolley]

Bump.

When I put this request out, I realized it didn't call for any posts, so it would get stale, and bumping might be needed.

I did get one volunteer from one of our more prominent members. Thank you! You know who you are... It was a wonderful conversation, where I learned a lot. Thanks!

Anyone else? I can't help without a lot more data...

[rowedder]

Hey Scolley,
You have a VERY interesting post!! I have designed my own automatic water changing system myself, very reliable and totally "automatic". Have you drawn out a schematic? I'd love to chat with you on this subject. PM me when you can. Take care.

[scolley]

PM sent rowedder. Thanks!

And yes, I do have schematics at my rarely updated blog - www.wetplantlogic.com . But I'm not sure those schematics would apply to many people here, they are better suited to closed loop systems and planted tanks.

[GrillMaster]

Sent ya a PM Steve...:)

[ashaysathe]

Honestly Steve.. I wish I had seen this before your poll. Let me answer a few here and lets talk over the phone.

1. How you change your water now. Everything about it.

Location (very important in this automation as that dictates margin of error) Living room. There is zero margin of error.
Process today: W/C are totally manual (not to the extent of carrying buckets). I use a tube from the tank into a 6 gallon trash can that has a pump taking the water to the drain. Manual bottom siphoning. This process is revered while filling up.
Total run time: unwinding tubes to cleaning floors when done about 20 mins.

What you would be seeking in an Automatic Water Change product.

My setup does not allow me permanent plumbing, unless there is any concealed way of plumbing. Tank position to bathroom is about 15 feets.

Automation product expectations:
Working assumption: I am prepared for manual setting up the tubes and putting it away when done (assuming permanent plumbing is out of question)
1. Automated bottom siphoning is a huge win.
2. Bottom cleaning is about 5 mins. The remainder 7 mins or so is draining water. Some means by which I can automate draining water off after desired quantity or time.
3. Vice-versa is also true and even more important - A zero failure means to fill the tank for desired level. Something like a loud whistle that will say "get your butt to the faucet to shut it off" (not literally i mean a signal/loud alert of some sort)

Specifically what benefits you believe you would receive from such a product.

1. I have a singular problem unlike many. Once is 12-18 months we visit India for 3-4 weeks. Although it has never happened since I got hit by discus bug, but clock is ticking. This product will be a huge huge benefit in this sceanrio. I can have my neighbor come and check and atmost have him shut the system off till I am back in case of emergency.
Even if I can get this product to work for me for this 3-4 week period when we all are away, I think its a success for me.

2. Unmonitored water drain and fill - can have a cup of tea while W/C

3. Vision: If I am busy may be wife can do it.

What your expectations are regarding the cost/value of such a product.
Should be less than Albino Lepord Spotted SnakeSkin.
Discus world seems to defiy any and all "economic challenges"

Additional Comments:
I have optimized the process where possible and may very well be that automation is not the way for me given the situation. But in a "conservative" (aka non isolated) setup like mine, any breeze away from labor after 10 hr days would be nice.

[waters10]

I'd be very interested in a solution for this. But I think most solutions are going to be based on people with multiple tanks. I'm replying here, to show that people with single tanks might be interested on this as well!

How you change your water now. Everything about it.
Right now, it's python gravity fed to a powder room sink to remove water and the same python to add water to ageing barrel. I then use a mag drive pump to fill the tank, from the ageing barrel that sit underneath the tank.

What you would be seeking in an Automatic Water Change product.
- Considering I have 1 tank only, I'd hope for something that's not too expensive, since it's harder to justify higher cost for a single tank. If that meant I'd have to have 1 manual step in the process, I'd be fine with it. Maybe pressing one button to start the process and having to come back to finish the process.
- Reliability is a big point, since tank is in a carpeted living room ... I know, not a good idea. :p
- I'd like to have something that use hot and cold water, so I don't have to spend $$$ heating cold water to correct temperature.
- If this system has something that includes auto bottom cleaning, I'd pre-order it right now!! :D But based on your previous threads, I think it doesn't.

Specifically what benefits you believe you would receive from such a product.
- I'd probably use it only when I'm at home, but just being able to start the process and do something else, would be huge already. If it's something that I can reliably do it while I'm away, even better.
- More importantly, I usually spend a month away from home, so a system that I can easily explain to a friend so he can do 1 or 2 weeks water changes easily and reliably, would be the main reason I'd get something like this.

What your expectations are regarding the cost/value of such a product.
Since it would be used for 1 tank setup for now, I don't want to spend a ton of money. But if it's something somebody can use easily and reliably while I'm away for longer periods of time, value goes way up for me and I'd be willing to spend more. :)

One question I have, is about the requirements to use a system like this. I don't expect you to package everything, including how to get hot/cold water to ageing barrels, or how and where you drain the water, so I'm assuming that in order to use a system like this, I'd probably have most of the plumbing done, correct?

[scolley]

Ashay and waters10 - thank you VERY much for such informative posts!

I don't want to say too much about the "market" as I see it, because I really would like to make product that benefits the community, and make a buck or two in the process, before someone else beats me to it.

But I don't mind saying that it is not "a" market. It's multiple markets. People like yourselves with one or two tanks and cannot tolerate a high cost, and then there are people with a significant number of tanks where an investment starts to make sense. And there's a whole lot in between.

The complexity of the possible number of "solutions" is - I'm sure - why more is not available today. But information like your IS beneficial to me. Thank you. And the "little guy" will not be forgotten.

Thanks.

PS - waters10 your questions about aging, temperature, how and where to drain, are all a part of the large set of factors that make this a problem that does not have a "one size fits all" solution, and part of what makes it an interesting challenge. But I'm confident that a solution can be found. I may even be getting close to it already... ;) My problem is knowing whether my assumptions are correct, and worth my time and investment to create a solution.

[scolley]

All - I had the privilege of several more interviews today. Thank you! I learned something in each one. And every time I learn something new about this problem, I get a little bit (sometime a lot) closer to being able to finalize on a solution design.

So, if you are reading these posts, and having a good automatic water change solution is something that would make your life better - or allow you to change your fish keeping habits (more tanks, more fry rearing, heavier tank stocking) - then please consider contacting me to talk for 30 minutes. Each interview gets me a little closer to understanding the market, which is the first step to any product development.

Regards - Steve

PS - If/when I market something, I have already promised the opportunity to test pre-market designs to those people that have been kind enough to provide me with 30 minutes of interview time. :) Thus far, they are lining up. So if you are interested, the first test units (if/when built) are going fast... ;)

[Apistomaster]

Steve,
Since we last discussed this, I thought of a method that might work for simply changing water but not for bottom waste removal.
I already fill and drain my tanks using an RV hose with a PVC fittings joined to form and inverted "U".
I'm thinking a drainage system using a modified overflow siphon in conjunction with an Aqualifter vacuum pump on an Expandashelf could be used to drain tanks being filled from the faucet or even the membrane RO reject water for most fish. The overflow siphon would just need a drain hose long enough to reach out my door as I already do when I normally siphon.
The RO reject water is cool but flows slowly enough that the heater should compensate.
Not too fancy but finding a use for so much RO reject water produced when making RO water would save a lot of water; at least allow it to be used once before wasting it permanently.
A garden hose timer/shut off would work with the mixing faucet and a timer would work with the RO reject water once the times and flows are calculated to know how long is enough flow time to achieve the desired total % of replacement water has been reached.
Neither method will clean the crud off the bottom. I think most home aquariums must have this part done manually.

Just an added note. RO reject water is only slightly mineral enriched above the level in the incoming source water. Perhaps 20% more at most. My water is only at 340 ppm TDS so an increase of 20% would only raise it toa little over 400 ppm, still acceptable for the majority of my fish.

[scolley]

Thanks Larry. But I'm not sure I follow you entirely. Maybe an email?

Thanks. :)

[scolley]

Well, it's about 90 days later and a good number of the good people of Simply Discus volunteered to help. THANK YOU VERY MUCH!

The results of the interviews were pretty much a confirmation of what I suspected. But if you are thinking about creating a product, you don't want to "think", you want to "know". And your help by providing your time helped me close that gap. Thanks.

RESULTS
As you can easily imagine, there is a very diverse set of people and needs with regard to automatic water changing. So the solution to this problem will not be "one size fits all". In fact, I think the market is broken down into several distinct segments, and each one has rather unique requirements.

Without giving anything away about the products, I think it is safe to say there are three primary markets.

1) One huge market of people that use next to zero technology today to do water changes. And they aren't willing to invest much to make that easier. This is a huge market. But they aren't going to spend much either.

2) The middle market does use - or is willing to use - technology or hard plumbing - to assist with water changes. They believe that a modest investment in making their lives less constrained by water changes can be money well spent. And they are not technology adverse. And can be depended upon to do a bit of plumbing.

3) The third market is very small, but has many, many tanks. These people have generally already run their plumbing, but are open to making things easier. That said, they have so many tanks that any significant cost (on a per tank basis) makes many solutions out of their comfort zone.

So I'm hitting the middle market first. After cranking out countless technical diagrams, aligning them up to the various solution segments, I finished the plumbing of my first prototype today. I slapped it up to my quarrentine tank, and it managed the 50% drain, and then the 100% fill (without overflowing!) like a charm. It's going to be augmented with some electronics, so that's gonna take a bit more time. And after that I've got to figure out how to make these puppies cheaper. 'Cuz this prototype took WAY too long to build.

After that I'll hit the first market. That will be easier actually, because much of the proof-of-concept is being taken care of in my first. more techinically advanced "middle market" product. After that, the simple, less expensive gizmo will be easy.


So thanks for the help folks. I hope that before too long I'll be calling you back for beta testing. ;)


PS - Did I mention that it can clean your tank bottom too? ;)

[rfeiller]

what is the rejection of you RO membranes Larry? mineral rejection on my 1200GPD system when I was operating it was 99.7% recirculated through a 55 gal drum to where rejection water was about 20 %. do you have a single or multiple membranes? if multiple are they in series or parralell. sorry for being nosey.

appreciate your input in the forum you obviously have a lot of experience.
always tried to keep a few rams and apistos around, great little fish. talk about a bantom rooster complex.

[Apistomaster]

what is the rejection of you RO membranes Larry? mineral rejection on my 1200GPD system when I was operating it was 99.7% recirculated through a 55 gal drum to where rejection water was about 20 %. do you have a single or multiple membranes? if multiple are they in series or parralell. sorry for being nosey.

appreciate your input in the forum you obviously have a lot of experience.
always tried to keep a few rams and apistos around, great little fish. talk about a bantom rooster complex.
I'm glad you asked. I have been meaning to check how well my Kent HI-S, 60 gpd unit is working after 3 years.
I start with ~340 ppm.
I am not using the mixed bed ion exchange resin cartridge.
My storage water is testing as 3.0 ppm.
If I did my calculations right, that is ~12% of what the source water mineral content is.
That doesn't seem very good.
Looking at it another way , the product water is 97% pure. That looks OK for a 3 year old membrane. If I used the resin cartridge I would probably be able to get ~99% pure product.
The production rate has diminished as the temperature of the mains water has dropped but I haven't made enough measurements to know exactly how much difference it has made from the summer time temperature production. It just seems slower but I am also using more and in a hurry so it may be an illusion.
Other variable is that in the summer, I use the outdoor spigots and that water pressure is higher. So higher pressure+warmer water=better production rate.
You know how the Kent Marine Hi-S Unit is designed, just one membrane.
At the time, ~60 gpd seemed like enough but I find myself using more RO water and would now like to have my barrels fill up faster.
I thought my membrane might be working less well than it appears. The membrane replacement price is about $100. I would rather use the $100 towards the cost of a 200 gpd Unit for>$300.
I use most of my RO water in my Hypancistrus and L134 Catfish breeding projects. Those and some Corydoras spp seem to be very responsive to RO as simulated wet season cycling. The Corydoras eggs have much better hatch rates in softer water ad the Plecos seem more willing to spawn. I also have Aspidoras pauciradiatus and Aspidoras "mendezi?" spawning but I'm having problems getting eggs to hatch. I may have to bring the pH down to >6.0?
I use tap water for routine water changes in all my wild Discus tanks but I would probably be more likely to use more RO with them if my production can keep up with the larger volume of water they go through. My tap water is not all that bad compared to towns only 30 miles away on the Palouse Prairie, a major farming area. The applied fertilizers have caused elevated nitrates and phosphates in their ground water. We have an entirely different water source; 300 feet deep wells in a section of the Columbia Basin Plateau lava flows. This water is 1000's of years old.
I only have one breeding pair of Stendker Brilliant Turquoise presently and their hatch rates have been fine in tap water.
Edit: I'm also using mostly RO water with my SA Dwarf Cichlids. I have some Taeniacara candidi and Dicrossus maculatus for the first time and I'm trying to spawn them. I bought them as small juveniles and they are just barely old enough to hope for something to happen. I has taken me a long time to get around to keeping these two species and spawning them has special importance to me.
I also have Apistogramma trifasciata, A. panduro and A. erythruma(formerly known as Apistogramma sp Rio Mamore)

[srud]

I am keenly interested in this. Any updates?

[scolley]

First prototype scavenged for parts, and building 2nd prototype today. Previously I said "worked like a charm". In retrospect I think that was my enthusiasm that it worked at all talking. Maybe I should say it worked without serious defect. I'm hoping to optimize the plumbing a bit with this 2nd prototype.

I'm also doing things to make it cheaper. Not lower quality. Just easier to build, fewer/less expensive parts.

The first prototype was really a proof-of-concept. Now I have to start refining. And lest I get anyone too excited... these prototypes are just the basic plumbing component. I have not yet built the prototype electronics, though I do have the rough schematics. And the very last bit will be the bottom cleaning, though I do have all of the parts already. I'm holding off on that, as it will take the most fine-tuning of all.

So where does that put me? I'd guess 3 months away from beta test devices. If I'm lucky. ;)

I'm just looking forward to hooking it up to change the water on one of my own tanks! And cleaning the bottom. :D

[antpal01]

Hi Scolley, from your last post it looks like you are close to a prototype.

I'd be interested in learning more about it. If it is still in the top secret phase, I'd be happy to sign a NDA (non disclosure agreement). if it's more informal and you have a prototype ready, maybe i coudl purchase one from you.

please let me know.

thx,
ant
973 449 3110

[Eyecandy]

Hi Scolley

This is definitely interesting.. The python works ok but like many others, I would like something automatic especially for those times when I go away or can't do the changes myself.. I find that rather than depend on others, the fish just have to suffer with no water changes til I get back... not the ideal situation but less scarey than having a "friend" do them.. Since my tank/tanks are not in a fishroom or unfinished basement, I would be very curious about the plumbing aspect. For a lot of us our tank/tanks are display tanks in living room type areas so the product would have to be aesthetically pleasing if visible..
Please keep us updated.. I would be happy to help in any way I could as to testing etc.. Good luck.. Sue

[poconogal]

Hi Scolley

This is definitely interesting.. The python works ok but like many others, I would like something automatic especially for those times when I go away or can't do the changes myself.. I find that rather than depend on others, the fish just have to suffer with no water changes til I get back... not the ideal situation but less scarey than having a "friend" do them.. Since my tank/tanks are not in a fishroom or unfinished basement, I would be very curious about the plumbing aspect. For a lot of us our tank/tanks are display tanks in living room type areas so the product would have to be aesthetically pleasing if visible..
Please keep us updated.. I would be happy to help in any way I could as to testing etc.. Good luck.. Sue

Ditto! I did have a good friend do a WC for me when I was away for 2 weeks, but luckily she is an experienced Discus keeper. I'd be very interested especially because of the time saving aspect. I'm now commuting over 2 hours one way so by the time I get home at night its late and I'm tired and WCs are a dismal chore. That's not how it started out, the commute time has increased dramatically and with that my tank maintenance has suffered. A product like you are talking about would be wonderful, Scolley!

[scolley]

I'd be interested in learning more about it. If it is still in the top secret phase, I'd be happy to sign a NDA (non disclosure agreement). if it's more informal and you have a prototype ready, maybe i could purchase one from you.
Your interest is much appreciated Ant. But they just aren't ready. One of the prototypes takes too long to build, and as such, I'd have to charge a ridiculous amount of money to make is worth my while. One of the things I'm working on is making them easier to make so they can be reasonably priced. And it's not like I've got a prototype laying around that I can ship... each time I make an improvement/change, I cannibalize parts from prior prototypes to save time. So all I have is the one that is on my quarantine tank.

Thanks for the interest though. If you don't mind, I'd like to keep you in mind for early user testing, once that starts.



Hi Scolley

Since my tank/tanks are not in a fishroom or unfinished basement, I would be very curious about the plumbing aspect. For a lot of us our tank/tanks are display tanks in living room type areas so the product would have to be aesthetically pleasing if visible..

Thanks Sue. I appreciate that feedback. I'm working on two models. One for people with permanent plumbing to the tank, and one for people without permanent plumbing to the tank. I'm working to make the one that attaches to permanent plumbing to be as low profile as possible, and esthetically inoffensive, since it will be on the tank all the time. But making it "low visual profile" also imposes some limitations, that being that the tank cannot be rapidly filled, but filling will need to be restricted to 75 - 100 gph in most installations. That's the model I'm working on now.

But for the people that do not have permanent plumbing - the python crowd - I'm not restricting myself to it being "attractive". I worked really hard at making it that way, but IMO it is just not possible. Because the python - by definition - is both a fill and a drain, and any given moment you are either filling or draining, but never both. That means that the fill function has to have a hard, safety shutoff valve on it. Electromechanical valves would be really nice for that, but they'd need fo be highly reliable and high flow, and electromechanical valves of that ilk are way too expensive for this product. I am using a "cheap", moderately reliable electromechanical valve for the drain function. And that's ok. Because in the unlikely event that it fails, the worst that can happen is an unintended 50% drain of your tank. But if I were to use that same inexpensive (and affordable) valve to shut off the fill function... if that were to fail... wow! Bad.

So since Pythons can't drain while they are filling, and since expensive electromechanical shutoff valves are out, I've got to use a good old reliable, affordable mechanical shutoff for full conditions. Imagine your tank as one big toilet bowl, but with a significantly more attractive float valve. But it's still not something you are going to want to look at all the time.

Your python running across the living room floor doesn't look that great. But you don't care because you are going to take it out of the tank and put it away when you are finished. Same here. This comes out of the tank with the python. But you can blast the water in at a rapid rate if you wish, and it will shut off hard when the tank is full.

This should work well for the vacation crowd too... just leave it in the tank with your python laying across the floor while you are gone.

And if you happen to be brave, or put great faith in inexpensive electromechanical devices, I'm planning on selling the electrical shut off valves separately. The more attractive, "permanant plumbing" version will have an electrical switch that trips when the tank is full. It will stop the fill process on it's own, but for those people that were filling with a pump, this will allow them to wire it so that the pump turns off. But if you are in the python crowd, and want to trust one of the separate shut off valves, you could buy a "permanent plumbing" model, attach the separate shut off valve, connect the valve to the "full sensing" switch, and attach your python to the valve. That will shut off the pthon when it's full, and it won't have excess ugly hardware in your tank.

Wow. That was a lot of explanation. I hope that made sense.


That's not how it started out, the commute time has increased dramatically and with that my tank maintenance has suffered. A product like you are talking about would be wonderful, Scolley!
Well, whether this helps you will depend...

For it to be most helpful, you will need a permanent line into your tank, and a permanent drain line coming from your tank. I do, so it does all the water changes and bottom cleaning on my QT tank for me. Right now that's 2 50% w/c's every day. I never lift a finger. But I did have to go to the trouble of buying a trash can as an aging tank, and install simple fill shut off equipment on it, and put heaters in, an air stone, and a pump - all to prepare the water, and then pump it to my tank when my device turns the pump on.

If you had a python - because you can't make all those changes, then the only REAL benefits that you would see is that once you hooked everything up, you don't have to watch it. When the tank is drained (to the appropriate level) it will stop draining automatically, and beep at you to let you know. And when it is full, it will stop filling, and beep at you to let you know. But you still had to get up a few times. And you still have to lug out that plumbing, hook it up, then drain it and put it away when you are finished.

I suppose the question is, would that make a significant difference in the drudgery of your water change routine?

[DonMD]

Sent you a pm just now. -Don in Virginia

[poconogal]

I do think it would help me, because while the WC was being done, I could be eating dinner or doing something else. I have about 1 1/2 to 2 hrs. from the time I get home till the time I have to go to sleep. Plus, I don't prepare my water, I use it straight from the tap, so no water barrel, pump, heater, etc. Just the Python. I guess the advantage would be that it would be automatic, so I would not have to stand there myself while cleaning/draining and then again while filling.

[scolley]

I guess the advantage would be that it would be automatic, so I would not have to stand there myself while cleaning/draining and then again while filling.
Understood. Thanks Connie.

It's my suspicion that there are a lot of people out there with exactly the same issue. And not just the discus community. Sure, we change water a lot. But there is a whole world of people that don't do water changes enough, because it's such a PITA. And removing the burden of watching it does not solve the problem, but it should ease things a bit.

My problem in providing that is cost. At the heart of it, this is nothing more than a wildly sophisticated, electronically assisted, overflow. And if you look at top-of-the-line mechanical only overflows, those sell for around $100. This is much, much more than that, and I'm sure it will be way, way north of $200.

That means lots of people will build them themselves (good luck with that... ;) ). And many, many people will rail at the cost and not buy them. And I don't blame them. That's a lot of do-ray-me. But I'll also wager that many people will say "no" until it's time for that long vacation, and the only person that can do your water changes is the brain-dead next door neighbor. Or their kid. Then the purchase decision might become a little easier, looking at it as a part of the cost of this - and future - vacations. And an investment that will make life, when not on vacation, just a little easier.

I hope. ;)

[poconogal]

When I started in the hobby, 17-18 years ago, I did my first WC on a 10 gallon tank by hose and bucket. It was a horrid experience to me! LOL!!!! I went right out and bought my Python from the LFS. There was no internet to buy things cheaper then, and the Python cost me around $60. That was a lot of money to spend on essentially a hose and valve, but boy did it make my life easier, especially when I went from one tank to five, classic MTS. Of course everyone has a cut off point that they feel is reasonable. While one person will spend $200-$300 for something that will make things easier, someone else may only feel comfortable spending $75.

[scolley]

While one person will spend $200-$300 for something that will make things easier, someone else may only feel comfortable spending $75.
That's exactly right Connie. And that is the reason why I'm talking about price now... I don't want people waiting for something that's gonna cost $50. Not gonna happen.

Not possible, even if I publish plans and a parts list for you build it yourself. And due to the significant one-time cost of tools needed to fabricate acrylic, you probably couldn't build one for $200 - $300. And if you did have the tools, you'd still have to be comfortable working with acrylic, electronics, and plumbing.

I'm afraid this is not going to be a $50 tool in people's fish keeping tool kit. After the research I've put into this, I'm pretty sure that's not possible, and still have it do the things I've described. Sorry. :(

[Roxanne]

Scolley do you want wc procedures from members anywhere or just in the States?

Roxanne

[scolley]

Rox - I'd love to know about w/c procedures outside of the US. Thank you. But I'm not sure how much good it will do you folks.

Getting this thing finished and to market in the USA is going to be hard enough. I suppose I could export, which adds a nasty bit of additional shipping cost. The larger problem - for me - is when there are differences in "standard" hose connections, electrical current, and plug sizes.

But I'd love to know. In my ignorance I'm assuming you guys down under do the exact same thing that we do in the states, except upside down. ;) I've been lucky enough to have visited your lovely country a few times, and must of your electrical and plumbing "stuff" looked pretty much like "stuff" here in the states.

Water on the other hand, is clearly far more precious there than it is here. So I'm happy to report this is not a drip system, and all the waste water that entails.

I'm always read to learn, if you want to send/post details. Thanks. :)

[John_Nicholson]

I am interested. If you could PM a phone number I would like to talk to you this evening.

Thanks.

-john

[Roxanne]

.... I could export, which adds a nasty bit of additional shipping cost. The larger problem - for me - is when there are differences in "standard" hose connections, electrical current, and plug sizes.

......)

I have an idea I will PM you....



.....

..I'm assuming you guys down under do the exact same thing that we do in the states, except upside down. ;) ...)

lolol.....I guess we do! I was told I was good at running electrical equipment 'inside out'..whatever that means:D

Roxanne:)

[trebor69]

I'm in the same crowd as pocono

I don't have the long commute but work 12hr swing shifts. And while I'd like to say I do daily WCs....the reality is that some days I am just plain too tired or have other commitments that take priority.

For me it wouldn't need to be 100% automatic as I am a bit of a pessimist and probably wouldn't feel comfortable letting something like this run all on its own when I wasn't home. Of course my tanks are all in living rooms and bedrooms etc so a water spill would be a bigger deal than if in a basement.

If it were something I could hook to the faucet/storage barrell....hang on the tank...and hit an 'on switch' I would be happy. I could let it do its thing while I was off starting dinner....doing laundry...getting a shower etc etc

It could even be permanently plumbed...just not start automatically. I could come in from work each day and hit a button and have it do a WC. MUCH more likely to get done every day.

[TankWatcher]

One problem with the electricals is that we are on 240V, wheras I think you are 110V.

1. How you change your water now. Everything about it.

3 display tanks are in a carpeted loungeroom. None are BB. The garage has a tank rank with BB. These will be hard plumbed to a sum (but this is yet to be done). I have a 1000L water storage tank in the garage, water is heated & there's an air stone in it to keep the water moving. There is a pump kept permanently in the storage tank. To empty the tank, I syphon into a container, which has a 2nd pump to take waste water into the drain. The hose from the water tank is then put into the tank, pump turned on & I watch while it fill, then switch it on.

What you would be seeking in an Automatic Water Change product.
Tanks in loungeroom don't allow for permanent plumbing, so everything must be easy to connect, disconnect & pack away.
Tanks in garage will be permanent plumbed. Fully automated system would be great.

Automation product expectations:
100% success rate for auto turnoff on refill & empty would be great. No more accidental overflows.


Specifically what benefits you believe you would receive from such a product.
Unmonitored water drain and fill. More time to sit & enjoy looking at my tanks.

Good luck with your product.

[scolley]

I have an idea I will PM you....
Thanks for the PM Roxanne!


...If it were something I could hook to the faucet/storage barrell....hang on the tank...and hit an 'on switch' I would be happy.I've never spent much time with your "one switch" option. I get the idea - it's simple. You leave it hooked up all the time, and hit a button (or something) and off it goes. Drain-fill-stop. Until you hit the button again some time later and it repeats.

For the permanent installation/permanent plumbing crowd (not the python people), is this more attractive than having drain and fill controlled by either timers, or controllers? Because that's what it does now, and that's where I was heading.

It would be a fairly easy modification, if I only knew HOW. What you are describing takes more than the modest knowledge of electrical circuitry that I have.

But if the permanent installation/permanent plumbing crowd prefers "one switch" instead of drain in fill controlled separately, please speak up. If I hear from enough, I'll look into that.

Thanks for the suggestion Trebor.



I could let it do its thing while I was off starting dinner....doing laundry...getting a shower etc etc.
That is the WHOLE idea. That's what is does now for me.


One problem with the electricals is that we are on 240V, wheras I think you are 110V.

1. How you change your water now. Everything about it.

3 display tanks are in a carpeted loungeroom. None are BB. The garage has a tank rank with BB. These will be hard plumbed to a sum (but this is yet to be done). I have a 1000L water storage tank in the garage, water is heated & there's an air stone in it to keep the water moving. There is a pump kept permanently in the storage tank. To empty the tank, I syphon into a container, which has a 2nd pump to take waste water into the drain. The hose from the water tank is then put into the tank, pump turned on & I watch while it fill, then switch it on.

What you would be seeking in an Automatic Water Change product.
Tanks in loungeroom don't allow for permanent plumbing, so everything must be easy to connect, disconnect & pack away.
Tanks in garage will be permanent plumbed. Fully automated system would be great.

Automation product expectations:
100% success rate for auto turnoff on refill & empty would be great. No more accidental overflows.


Specifically what benefits you believe you would receive from such a product.
Unmonitored water drain and fill. More time to sit & enjoy looking at my tanks.

Good luck with your product.
Thanks for the writeup TankWatcher. I think I've got you covered.

As far as the 100% is concerned, that's hard. Anything can fail, and will if given enough time. But this will be very, very, reliable. I just got back from a week away on business, and my tank that uses this did two 50% w/c's every day while I was gone, and I NEVER thought about it when I was away. In fact, with the Eheim autofeeder over the tank, the ONLY thing I thought about with those fish was to ask my wife if she was remembering the FBW cube every morning and evening. If it weren't for that, I'd have forgotten about that tank completely. It takes care of itself for many days at a stretch.

When I got back, I did have to clean the filter, and wipe down the tank walls. Haven't figured out how to automate that yet... ;)