Water changes, whats your opinion on this?

[Dave27]

i just spoke to 3 breeders, 2 sponsors here about a juvee grow out tank.

Anything more than 2 - 35 % water changes a week ( on a properly mantained tank, Poop vacumed daily and not over feed ( 2 good feedings a day of frozen BW and a quality flake every few days ) is just a waste of time and overly stresses your fish.

Discussss :)

[dan3949]

IMO, water change schedule (and quantity) should be based on tank nitrate level. You should monitor your setup and find out what water change is required to keep nitrate concentration at an acceptable level. Depending on bio-load, feeding, filtratation, setup, ... will determine what water change schedule is needed.

For example, I have a 125 gallon community tank with 8, 3-4" discus and several other "cleaner" fish. I feed frozen BW and BS/MS 2X/day plus 4X daily dry pellets (using an auto feeder). I have a very thin layer of gravel and about a dozen plants in pots. I run about a 15% daily continuous drip WC and do a 15% WC/gravel vacuum 2X per week. My nitrates stay between 6 and 3 ppm. Any additional WC would be unnecessary (I could cut back my drip to 10% daily and my nitrates run around 8 ppm).

I think you need to monitor and set a WC schedule to keep nitrates below a threshold value (e.g. 10 ppm). This could vary greatly depending on your setup.

[varez]

Hi,

I am no expert but i raise discus and i think that the stress is on the poop vacumed daily. I do it and i change 25% day, sometimes more and the water have the same pH, temp, KH and gh and i think they don´t stress about the water changes. I really don´t know if what you said works but i think that for noobs like me it´s the easiest way to make sure that the water stays fresh, clean and good, i think too that the proper way to garantied the good water stays on don´t overfeed and clean the pre filter as many times a day you can...IMO the secret to make them grow besides what i´ve said is to have a high gh and kh and the proper minerals on the water, of course the food is very important but we aren´t discussing that...

[Dave27]

We can discus food, just state if your a cattle raiser or a hobbiest.
Cost determines some peoples motives for feeding and raising large amounts of fish.
Not always the best reasons, but understandable a reason.

[calihawker]

Thanks Dave for bringing this up. My discus haven't been stressed about the daily 50-75% w/c but I sure have been, trying to keep up with it, so I've decided to do things a little different now. The thing I find interesting in your original post is how little "the breeders" recommend feeding the fish. That goes against everything I've read right here on this forum ( I'm a hobbiest not a cattle raiser)

varez, you say a high gh and kh, ie. hard water. Again, isn't that against conventional wisdom that discus do better in soft water?

[Greg Richardson]

So these 5 people believe more WC's stress out fish?
I suggest they check out their water and their way of changing water.
My fish hate them so much they play in the water coming in. LOL!

When it comes to WC's so many variables come into play such as........

What size fish you have?
What your goal is with those fish?
Breeders?
Show tank or?
List goes on and on.


BTW. Right now I'm doing about two changes a week.
That's due to current stocking amount, size of tanks, and my current goals.

When those goals change as well as other factors mentioned I might be back to twice a day wc's.

[varez]

just state if your a cattle raiser or a hobbiest.

Hi,

I am something between the two...




Varez, you say a high gh and kh, ie. hard water. Again, isn't that against conventional wisdom that discus do better in soft water?

Hi,

I am not talking about wild discus, the captive breeded discus deals well with a higher pH and harder water, soft water it´s for wilds and breeding, as i said i am no expert but i saw more grown in same conditions but with higer pH, kh and gh.

[Discus-Hans]

Funny not so long ago you said:


I read an article recently ( sorry don't have a link or remember the book it was in ) but it was from a renowned world wide Discus breeder that ran tests on raising discus on different types of food.
All were good choices and the differences in growth were insignificant.

What he did find is that Water changes had the greatest influence on growth by far, compared to what any certain type of good quality food choice had on it.

So if you want big healthy fish, do water changes every day and feed any of the good quality foods listed here.


And now:



i just spoke to 3 breeders, 2 sponsors here about a juvee grow out tank.

Anything more than 2 - 35 % water changes a week ( on a properly mantained tank, Poop vacumed daily and not over feed ( 2 good feedings a day of frozen BW and a quality flake every few days ) is just a waste of time and overly stresses your fish.

Discussss :)


I say you talked to the wrong people, but who am I ???

Hans

[brewmaster15]

i just spoke to 3 breeders, 2 sponsors here about a juvee grow out tank.

Anything more than 2 - 35 % water changes a week ( on a properly mantained tank, Poop vacumed daily and not over feed ( 2 good feedings a day of frozen BW and a quality flake every few days ) is just a waste of time and overly stresses your fishwell... I can tell you that I wasn't one of the ones you spoke to!!!!

Blanket statements like yours here are misleading and inaccurate......so much depends on stocking densities, tank size, water parameters,filtration, food fed and amounts feds per time, as well as goals in raising a particular group of fish.. You will never harm a group fish with water changes provided the water is the same parameters going in as coming out.....however...you will harm a group of fish by doing insufficient water changes for your given tank circumstances. What that harm can translate to....increased disease incidence, poor growth and development, skittsh behavior and stress..

-al
been there, done that

[1077]

I believe OP said in a "properly maintained Tank" A properly maintained tank has adequate filtration, fish are not overstocked or overfed, and water parameters are at optimum conditions. Those who do otherwise for whatever reason or those whose water quality suffers due to those reasons are forced to play catch-up IF they want their fish to remain healthy.

[Don Trinko]

I have read a lot and talked to several famous discus gurus. Many change 50% plus each day, others 25% a week. My personal proceedure is to use the nitrates as a guide and keep them under 10. ( typicaly 3 to 5)
In the begining I was doing 2 30% wc per week. ( typical bioload: 1 discus per 10g. no other fish) I now do 40 to 50% twice a week. ( depends on the tank and how many discus)
I was concerned abought large wc stressing the discus. I have come to the following conclusions: (IMO)
1. If the wc water is of the same temp and near the same ph and other parameters as the tank water large wc do not bother the discus in fact they like it!
2. A good variety of food and good water with a reasonable temperature (82 to 87) and your discus will grow well.
3. 8 and 9" discus are rare, 6 and 7" are common.
4. Some discus will never get over 3.5 to 4". Sometimes because they are picky eaters, sometimes genetics, and somtimes I don't know why.
5. Under the same condition ( even in the same tank but purchased at a diferent time)some discus get sick and others don't. Why? I don't know.
All of this is IMO. Don T.

[Dave27]

Exactly Hans, that is why I brought it up.
75% daily water changes or 25% twice weekly?
Beefheart vs Flake food?
Opposite ends of the spectrum.

While of course there are many variables in the mix, different motives and tank & fish size bla bla bla, that could all be factors, it seems there is completely conflicting information out there from Very experienced people.
I'm no expert that is a fact, just the opposite, that is why I ask questions.

It's interesting to hear peoples opinions on the subjects but it is confusing when the very basics discussed here are in contrast from people that are very successful and experienced.
It makes you question your own technics, which road to follow.

[Don Trinko]

Abought ever 6 months someone relativly new to raising discus brings up the "why" and "how much" of WC. 2 years ago I was that guy.
You are doing the correct thing. ( asking why and how much) but in the end you will have to decide for yourself.
The conditions are different for different people. the breeders and dealers of necesity push the bioload and under crowded conditions clean water is neccisary to prevent disease and promote good growth. Most of the breeders/dealers do daily wc or use a drip system.
Someone who buys near adult discus and feeds less does not have do as many wc and they don't have to be as large.
The typical hobiest (if there is such a thing) is somewhere in the middle.
As I said above ; you have to decide. If your discus are healthy and have grown a lot a year from now you made a good dicision. If they are sick offten and many have died you made a bad dicision. Don T.

[Discus-Hans]

Exactly Hans, that is why I brought it up.
It makes you question your own technics, which road to follow.

Don't worry I'm not questioning how to take care of my fish,

Hans

[Peachtree Discus]

i disagree about the stress related to wcs. maybe they stress out because the water changes are not as frequent.


My fish hate them so much they play in the water coming in. LOL!


i change around 90% daily on my growouts with straight tap from the hose. my fish do the same....play in the incoming water as well as playing around the drain. we use a net to remove the crap out of the water several times per day and the little knuckleheads seem to enjoy making a dive INTO the net every time. when i siphon...they just sit there like...."wateva" and i have to push them out of the way to get to certain areas.

i do agree about the water params matching tho.

[Dave27]

Don't worry I'm not questioning how to take care of my fish,

Hans

Not worried one bit, I wasn't talking about you, just in general.

[Greg Richardson]

While of course there are many variables in the mix, different motives and tank & fish size bla bla bla, that could all be factors, it seems there is completely conflicting information out there from Very experienced people.


If you understand as you say there is variables then why do you think you won't get conflicting answers?
Of course you will.

It all depends on how the question is asked and whom it is asked to.

Why some people have a problem with a thread like this is because it can hurt the hobby when answers are given based on certain factors that won't always take place.

Some newbie comes along and reads experts say two 35% wc's a week just fine.

In my current case right now that's true.

Yet............
Year ago when I had more fish in smaller tanks not true.
My agenda with those fish at the time was growth so once again you have three different factors to consider. Tank size, amount of fish, current agenda of use of fish.

For a newbie to come along and read wc's can stress fish is simply not true unless it's done wrong.

Hope this helps why people tend to not like to see statements made like that starting threads.

[Dkarc@Aol.com]

It's all about the water quality.... "take care of the water and the fish will take care of themselves". Water quality is so much more than just pH, ammonia/nitrite/nitrate. It's your dissolved oxygen, % unionized ammonia, temp, salinity, alkalinity, flow rate, BOD, etc. To do a water change based soley on the fact of what your nitrate levels is not correct. I have been to a few ornamental farms where their nitrate levels were well over 600, and yet they have fish spawning in thousands of tanks. Water quality is also much harder to maintain if you feed a dirty feed like BH. Those of you who mix in shrimp, fish, krill, etc are creating a very "hot" feed. Usually this ends up being an extremely high protein diet. Discus can only use the amino acids that they need, nothing extra. Whatever they dont use, gets broken down and excreted directly as ammonia through the gills. Now if you are feeding BH and are having to do a ton of water changes all the time, try making a new batch and minimize the amount of excess protein sources you use. This will minimize the amount of ammonia excreted by the fish. This of course will help maintain your water quality.

So to say exactly what percentage/frequency of water changes you do is based on a few factors...stocking density, water temp, pH, type of feed. Even if knowing all of those factors, it is still not feasable to realistically tell someone to do X amount of water changes at x percentage. Granted we tell people to do something similar (35% 2X/wk) but this is just a starting line. To determine what kind of water changes you should do is really based on your individual situation (bare bottom/planted, juvies/adults, etc).

-Ryan

[Don Trinko]

I don't disagree that Nitrates are far from the only concern but they are one indication of how much "bioactivity" has occured and one of the few water parameters that is easily monitered.
If there was a "discus health" test kit I would be one of the 1st to buy it. I guess the bottom line is How can you tell when it is time for a water change and how much do you change? IMO Most of us do this by ours and others past experiences.
IMO Many successfull discus keepers have considerably different proccedures. They are successfull for sure but is there a scientific reason for what they do or is it past experiences? I am not saying anyone is wrong or wright. I am saying it would be nice if there was some way to test your water and say " yes, its fine" or "Time for a 53% wc". Don T.

[Dkarc@Aol.com]

Well theoretically, by testing the water over a wide range of tests it is possible to say "yes time for w/c" or "no it can go a little while longer". But then again, discus can be very touchy with their water quality. Just because everything on paper says its good, the discus may not think the same. Water quality from what I have experienced is a combination of science and art. There is no right or wrong, but there are definetly some areas that are well defined.

-Ryan

[brewmaster15]

okay, so does anyone care to make the difficult concept of water quality harder by talking about how to achieve maximum growth while maintaining "water quality" in a hobbyist tank?;):D

-al

[Peachtree Discus]

okay, so does anyone care to make the difficult concept of water quality harder by talking about how to achieve maximum growth while maintaining "water quality" in a hobbyist tank?;):D

-al

exactly. i think it would be too much (and too expensive) to test your water in multiple tanks - multiple times per week to determine the optimal time to wc. then figure the appropriate amounts of water to change to maintain optimal water params - in multiple tanks. when i was lurking bak when...i read threads discussing these topics. I recall a posts admiting that there is a lot of wc overkill but people do it to keep ultra clean water and promote growth.

[White Worm]

Its really simple to me. I dont monitor anything anymore (too much worry). I started with large w/c's every other day (measuring every parameter) which sometimes worked well and other times didnt. I guess it depends on whats in (or whats not in) or the preparation of the water that affects discus when doing large or numerous w/c's. I find that prime has been the one constant required chemical around my tanks. I adjusted the amount and times a week as I gained experience with my discus. I can tell when they need a water change without a test kit which I try not to reach that point. I can tell if I'm not doing enough, thats for sure. The general advice is to do large frequent w/c's as a starting point to insure a clean environment and then each person will have to work out their own schedule depending on their own situation as there is no clear cut rule. Just for looks or keeping discus nice and healthy, maybe not so important to do daily large w/c's depending on age, stock, foods, etc... Breeding....... that water better be spotless! If you have discus that constantly get sick, dont rush to the front of the tank when you enter the room or dont eat well, you may want to look at your process because you are doing something wrong.

[Dave27]

To those that got upset because I asked a question or the way I asked it and posted what more experienced people, very successful people practiced or recommended to me for WC, I'm very sorry. NO one should practice anything anyone posts without doing other research. Many variables as stated can contribute to the situation of what is the proper WC. I didn't mean to make such a "blanket statement" but sometimes i assume everyone understands what I'm thinking,
thats My Bad.

For those that have tons of experience, disagree with whats been posted or have years of successful experience and know it all, I say
WRITE A BOOK,
share it with everyone else. I'm first in line to buy it.
Has anyone here written a book???
Until then i thought discussion and opinions was what the forum was about.

[DiscusOnly]

Why would you buy a book when there are tons of info on this site alone? It's info and you need to apply the info to your situation. You made a "blanket" statement about feeding and WC while you have VERY LITTLE experience on the subject. How long have you had your discus? Did you start out with 8 discus and now you are left with 6? It appears that you have a few issues based on your posts for the past few weeks.

There are lots of very helpful folks here on SD and quiete a few VERY experienced hobbyist and some who do this for a living. My advice to you is to sit back, read and read.. apply various methods to see different results.

Remember that this is a community. Not only are you getting a lots of info about keeping discus as a hobby (on various levels). You may want to visit/talk with other members to share information (NO BOOK IS GOING TO GIVE YOU THAT)

[Ed13]

To those that got upset because I asked a question or the way I asked it and posted what more experienced people, very successful people practiced or recommended to me for WC, I'm very sorry. NO one should practice anything anyone posts without doing other research. Many variables as stated can contribute to the situation of what is the proper WC. I didn't mean to make such a "blanket statement" but sometimes i assume everyone understands what I'm thinking,
thats My Bad.

For those that have tons of experience, disagree with whats been posted or have years of successful experience and know it all, I say
WRITE A BOOK,
share it with everyone else. I'm first in line to buy it.
Has anyone here written a book???
Until then i thought discussion and opinions was what the forum was about.
Dave it was a legitimate question. I saw no indication of anyone "getting upset", angry or aggravated though except you. Just passionate people sharing their experiences with us and I'm sorry but while it is good to question why, it is no good to dismiss or ignore the word on those that have been doing it longer and better than you and me. They have been successful for a reason many of them since before I was born.:)

And as to the "write a book" statement, some of our members have or have written papers like Andrew Soh, Heiko Bleher and Anthony Mazeroll. Others have bred and raised thousands of discus;). Not good to call them on it. All of these people have shared the same method, clean water and good food.

The manner as to why WC are so important can be expressed by math for example:

http://www.simplydiscus.com/library/water_chemistry/general/wc_formula.shtml

I mean no disrespect though.

[calihawker]

This is exactly the kind of discussion that I relish, both on this forum and the planted tank forum and I thank Dave for getting it going. I have had a few people comment on how my daily 75% water changes are a waste and stressful to my fish, but after reading this thread I've come to realize the basic truth. None of you have seen my tank, none of you know my feeding schedule and none of you have tested my water. It's up to me and me alone to determine if what I'm doing is beneficial or detrimental to my fish and of course that becomes apparent real quick when you're losing fish, or in my case, the fish are excited to see me, eat like pigs and play happily in the w/c water every day.




There are lots of very helpful folks here on SD and quiete a few VERY experienced hobbyist and some who do this for a living. My advice to you is to sit back, read and read.. apply various methods to see different results.

Remember that this is a community. Not only are you getting a lots of info about keeping discus as a hobby (on various levels). You may want to visit/talk with other members to share information (NO BOOK IS GOING TO GIVE YOU THAT)

Over the past 2 years while I setup my 300 gallon high tech tank, I have asked a few questions, gotten some great advice, sometimes not so great, but the one thing I do on this forum is absorb as much as my poor 46 year old brain will allow.

Thanks everyone:D

Steve

[White Worm]

It's up to me and me alone to determine if what I'm doing is beneficial or detrimental to my fish and of course that becomes apparent real quick when you're losing fish, or in my case, the fish are excited to see me, eat like pigs and play happily in the w/c water every day.
Steve

There you go. When new with discus, go overboard with clean water and then adapt a schedule to your situation as you gain experience. Some people on here have probably killed more discus than I will ever have by taking these steps over many many years and thats why they are here to help everyone avoid those mistakes. Thats why I've been here 3 years now. Happy anniversary to me and Simply!

[brewmaster15]

For those that have tons of experience, disagree with whats been posted or have years of successful experience and know it all, I say
WRITE A BOOK,
share it with everyone else. I'm first in line to buy it.
Has anyone here written a book???
Until then i thought discussion and opinions was what the forum was about.

This forum is about discussions....but that doesn't mean everyone will agree with whats posted or the manner its posted will necessarily sit well with everyone. And sometimes those with experience see something stated as fact that they know is either dead wrong or has the potential to kill or harm someones fish...and they respond strongly to it...Thats the beauty of a discussion forum not its liability.

As for the comment of "write a book"......I don't see the need for that comment but I won't ignore it either...
I've spent years here sharing what I have learned and do so free of charge day in and day out here......as do many other experienced hobbyists....Writing a book does not make you more experienced at the subject you write about about...it just makes you a writer, not a good one or a bad one....not experienced or naive...but just a writer.

Don't knock those with more experience than you...learn from them. Thats why they take the time to share what they know.


-al

[Don Trinko]

This forum is a little bit like a small town; After you have lived their a while you get to know everyone. There are people in that town who I would goto for advice on my truck but wouldn't think of letting them work on my house.
Same here. We have a lot of experienced hobbiest, breeders and dealers. Others are expert in disease. Hang around a while and you will find out who's who. Don T.

[prolude006]

I usually ask the person I got my discus from what they do. In my case its well documented as they all came from Hans.
And when I look at his posts I see he has "Winner of 16 awards with the Stendker Discus at the ACA 2008 in Atlanta " which I could say he just wrote, but I am sure, if I needed to and I dont, I could check if thats really true. Of course it is!!
Therefore I would listen to what Hans, in my situation, would tell me for general rules of keeping discus!!

As far as water changes I do 1/3 a week (planted tank) and my fish are doing well enough for me (healthy). I have no choice at the moment to use water that is cold from the tap. I fill very slowly (2 hours to fill my 75g with 1/3 water change) and my fish love the temperature difference. The two large ones actually spawn closest to where the water came into the tank.
Forums can get heated fast, just take everyone's advice and decide what is right to you.:argue:

Oh I almost forgot: isn't one reason for high water changes due to discus excrete high amounts of hormones that keep them from growing too large in their tank or habitat?