Tank blowing up(everything dying), need urgent help!

[TJT]

I got into this hobby about 8-10 months back. Origianly i picked up some Red swords and rosey barbs for my 25galon tank. After discovering how beautiful Discus are i picked up 2 red blood pigeon discuss and had them in my 25 galon for about 4 months.

I knew that was a small tank and we had a move comming at the end of sept so i held off on a tank upgrade until then. The discus had been fine, one of them stopped growing, it always seemed like a more timid eater. The other discus was getting to be a very nice size.

Anways i bought a 90 galon about 5-6 weeks ago. Had all new equipment, ehiem 2215 filter, 400 w heater, hydor and aquaclear powerhead. The tank had been comming allong well so i decided to go out and pick up 3 more discus (name has eluded me but they were stirated blue discuss) I took about a hour to acculmate them to the tank, slowly untroducing water to the bag. Everything went well when i put them in the other 2 discuss were intrested in them. for 2 days everything looked great. I tested my water both days just to see how things were. Also did about a 30% water change the second day.

Yesterday before i went to bed they looked fine, one was hiding a little i didnt think much of it because earlier in the day everyting looked good.

This morning i woke up to one dead blue discus, and my larger red blood pigeon discus swiming upside down. I turned the aquaclear powerhead off as it was blowing him all over the tank, as well i treated the tank with Kanaplex because 4 months back one of the other blood pigeons had a swollen belly and was swimming upsdie down, and i treated for a parasite and he was fine 12 hours later. The nitrates also went up to about 0.3 mg/l overnight. First time they have spiked since the tank cycled. No ammonia readings though. One other thing ALL of my fish are at the surface of the water "gasping" for air. The tank temp is 84f i do not have injected Co2 its the water/yeast setup with a ladder for the bubbles. Ive compleatly removed that from the tank now as my red swords have been at the surface of the water on and off for the last 4-5 days. I know they dont like temps this high i was planning on moving them to a new home saturday.

So i came home for lunch, the large red blood pigeon is dead and has a very swollen belly. also 2 roesy barbs are dead. so i have 4 fish dead and the rest of my tank is at the surface of the water.

I really need some help ill watch the nitrites closely, i added nitribac to the tank already. The other discus are swimming well, but there colors dont look good. My gut wants to turn the temp down because it looks like Co2 posioning, but if its a virus or something(swelling of the stomach) i know that will just make it worse.

Clearly something is a real problem, i have some pics of the dead fish and how swollen there bodies are if that will help. I dont think its Dropsy, i dont see any of the scales lifting off the bodies.

Also my tap water has no nitrites in it.
I do use water conditioners.
I usualy change about 25% of the water a week.
I did a larger wc because i was bringing new fish in.
I didnt add the petstore water to my tank when i add'ed the fish.
I feed my fish frozen bloodworms usualy once a day, then dried bloodworms as well as tetra color sinking crumbs, wich i usualy presoak so they dont get digested hard.

[brewmaster15]

Hi,
well first thing I'd do is a really large water change, add strong aeration and see if you can post some pics of the live fish.... CO2 poisoning isn't likely with a powerhead but what kind of filtration are you using? Is this an undergravel system...if so...that may be part of the problem..

another thing to look at....you mentioned you use water conditioners? what do you use and do you know if you have chloramines or chlorine in the tap? The gasping could be from chloramines.... You also mentioned you did a large water change? whats your normal tap pH and the tank pH? Do you age your water?

-al

[TJT]

Hi,
well first thing I'd do is a really large water change, add strong aeration and see if you can post some pics of the live fish.... CO2 poisoning isn't likely with a powerhead but what kind of filtration are you using? Is this an undergravel system...if so...that may be part of the problem.. a

another thing to look at....you mentioned you use water conditioners? what do you use and do you know if you have chloramines or chlorine in the tap? The gasping could be from chloramines.... You also mentioned you did a large water change? whats your normal tap pH and the tank pH? Do you age your water?

-al

I have had the aquaclear powerfilter running air into the tank for weeks now. The filter is a cansiter filter, Eheim 2215 just your standard intake and outflow tubes.

The water conditioner is "big als multi-purpose aquarium water conditioner" it says it removes Chlorine and Chloramine. Ill check the ph of my tap and tank. last time i checked my tank ph it was 7.4.

[TJT]

I have had the aquaclear powerfilter running air into the tank for weeks now. The filter is a cansiter filter, Eheim 2215 just your standard intake and outflow tubes.

The water conditioner is "big als multi-purpose aquarium water conditioner" it says it removes Chlorine and Chloramine. Ill check the ph of my tap and tank. last time i checked my tank ph it was 7.4.

Tank ph is 7.4 tap water ph is 7.8

ill post pics of the fish in the tank in a second.

http://img201.imageshack.us/img201/5324/picture001py1.th.jpg (http://img201.imageshack.us/my.php?image=picture001py1.jpg)http://img201.imageshack.us/images/thpix.gif (http://g.imageshack.us/thpix.php)

http://img186.imageshack.us/img186/9268/picture003mt4.th.jpg (http://img186.imageshack.us/my.php?image=picture003mt4.jpg)http://img186.imageshack.us/images/thpix.gif (http://g.imageshack.us/thpix.php)

The larger discuss ive had for about 8-10 months.

http://img82.imageshack.us/img82/4350/picture006do7.th.jpg (http://img82.imageshack.us/my.php?image=picture006do7.jpg)http://img82.imageshack.us/images/thpix.gif (http://g.imageshack.us/thpix.php)

[scolley]

I cannot personally imagine you having a CO2 problem using yeast on a tank that size. But your fish struggling for oxygen looks pretty clear. Al suggested a large water change, and you should get on that ASAP. But as you are doing that, I'd be throwing an airstone hooked up to a powerful air pump in that tank. And even before you waste time hooking that up, I'd get a quart bucket or pot and scoop up a quart of water - hold it high over the tank - and let it splash back in, making as much surface disturbance and bubbles as you can. Then repeat 100-200 times.

Really. Those fish need air.

[TJT]

I unpluged the Co2 and turned the aquaclear powerhead back on about 3 hours ago. Just got home from another job, wasnt able to do a WC in that time. All the fish are now swimming around the tank rather then at the surface of the water. my discus look a little scared but seem to be swimming around at least. the rosey barbs look as if they had 15 galons of caffine. They are so jittery and all there movements are extreamly quick and sharp.

In all of this the red swords seem to be the most relaxed swimming around in the currents and being themselfs.

Do you really think Co2 was my problem here? the tank hasnt even grown in yet, i cant imagin the plants using that much O2 at night. and like i said its not pressurized Co2 so i dont see how one little canister of sugar yeast could throw that much Co2 into the tank over night.

i have lots of surface movement with both powerheads moving the water in a circle im thinking of moving the spray bar above the surface of the water to get more agitation though. Basicly so the filter will run the water back into the tank much like a HoB filter would.

ill keep this thread updated im not sure if im out of the woods yet. Any comments on the "swelling" of the dead fish? both of my discus had huge stomach areas, would Co2 posioning do that? i thought it would be more of a parasite.

Also the large discus i lot was swiming upside down and all over like his swim blatter was messed up, again is this a sign of Co2?

[Graham]

Plants give off CO2 at night and use O2, no different than you and I do breathing and then you're adding CO2. ...bad combo.

Depending on the KH levels and the amount of CO2 being added to the water this could very well be crashing your pH nightly.

I also don't see where you QT'd these new fish, so they may have added a parasite to the water

[TJT]

Plants give off CO2 at night and use O2, no different than you and I do breathing and then you're adding CO2. ...bad combo.

Depending on the KH levels and the amount of CO2 being added to the water this could very well be crashing your pH nightly.

I also don't see where you QT'd these new fish, so they may have added a parasite to the water

I didnt QT them, i was told about this store from 3-4 other people including 2 other lfs, how good there stock was yadda yadda. I know i shouldnt have assumed anything, but i just tore down my 25g because it was on the floor in our living room because i didnt have a spot setup for it in the move.

So i tore it down, thought i would be able to get away with adding 3 discus while i set up my qt tank in my office and bam this happened :\

Be it the Co2, or a parasite im pretty dissapointed in the outcome. I think im going to get rid of the swords and barbs and try to make this just a discus tank. I tried to carry too many diffrent types of fish, i should have never put the discus in with the swords because i was never able to get the tank temps where i wanted them to be. anyways off on a dissapointed rant here i clearly need to straighten this out for the fish. things seem to be getting better now that i moved the spray bar above the water and have had the powerhead putting lots of air into the tank.

One discuss is still hiding, im sure tomorrow morning will be a better indication of how things are going.

[Graham]

Hi Sorry you're having the problems............ regardless of where they come from they all should be QT'd.....and then one of the existing fish should be added to the QT several weeks along. You could have two healthy appearing groups of fish and then when they go together one group goes down.

[Eddie]

Sorry to hear about the unfortunate event. I hope that everything takes a turn for the better. Good luck with them

Eddie

[AndyM]

Boy, that's a drag. The one thing I can think of with the CO2, the DIY shouldn't be putting THAT much in the water, but it doesn't look like you have many plants, so there isn't that much being used up, and pretty much none at night. Often O2 struggles due to CO2 happen at night/right before lights on. I know it's a chunk o' $, but in the long run pressurized CO2 for a tank what size will be cheaper, easier to use, and you'll run less risk of over-injection. But really, unless you plan on lots more plants I'd just go with excel. Good luck!!

[TJT]

So the fish store owner says i overfed the fish.

I had red how pellets could swell in the fish too. shame i lost 2 discus because of it. The Co2 scare was a result of trying to save one of the discus because it couldnt swim away from the intake on the powerhead so i pulled the plug and it almost killed the rest of the tank because my O2 levels dropped.

They replaced the discus i bought from the store. I still lost my 10 month old blood pigeon :( oh well guess its a lousy lesson.

[Eddie]

Over fed them??? The pictures of the 2 tail standing at the surface doesn't look like they were overfed. The picture of the pigeon in the bag looks pretty fat bellied but I wouldn't think it would be so sudden. Some of my fish get FAT bellies when they eat and they don't tail stand at all. Hmmm....:confused:

[scolley]

I'm sorry about your problems with your fish. Definately a bummer. But I feel compelled to set the record straight on the CO2 question.

You don't have squat for plants. Not in terms of volume. So there is NO WAY that your plants contributed in any significant way to nocturnal CO2 emission. Also, you have stated that you have yeast based (DIY, non-compressed) CO2 delivery. Now unless you have a massive bank of many 2 liter coke bottles that you haven't mentioned, there is NO WAY that your set up contributed to excessive CO2 in your tank. Anyone that wants to question this needs to spend 10-15 minutes on any reasonable planted tank specific forum to learn that yeast delivered CO2 systems have a very hard time delivering enough CO2 to plants, and virtually NEVER deliver too much for the fish unless it is a nano tank, or some such minuscule volume of water.

Finally, the idea that plants and pressurized CO2 are a bad combination is bunk. It IS a combination that you MUST be careful with, and KNOW what you are doing. But if you have those two qualifications down, you can join me, and many tens of thousands of people around the world, that combine those two things with lovely - and fish safe - results, every day.

Good luck with the fish. Sorry about the rant, but the advice you received here got a bit off the mark.

[TJT]

Thanks for the rant, any info is good info(as long as its accurate :D)

I know it works, i had the 2 discus in a 25g planted, i got the larger tank so i could get more fish and plants... ill get there.

[scolley]

It's accurate my friend. Look up "scolley" for my threads if you think I'm blowing smoke. In particular look for any thread with the word "Kahuna" for any evidence that I've got a small clue.

Good luck!

[TJT]

It's accurate my friend. Look up "scolley" for my threads if you think I'm blowing smoke. In particular look for any thread with the word "Kahuna" for any evidence that I've got a small clue.

Good luck!

No no, i wasnt questioning your information. Any information i can get is great. im refering to google and sites that arent updated. When i was reserching this hobbie there was lots of information i got online that wasnt fully accurate. Friendly forum posters seem to be some of the best info i can get!

[scolley]

No no, i wasnt questioning your information.
ZERO offense taken. This is a hobby that in many areas is not well understood. And even in those areas that appear to be well understood, some times this understanding barely crawls above voodoo (I don no why i woiks, it jus duz... ). So PLEASE always question the source. If this information was certain, you would not need forums. You could just buy a book... (connect dot A to dot B, and then draw a dotted line between dots B and C...)

Too bad it isn't that easy. But that's why we are blessed with forums like this. Ask for information. Question your feedback. Decide what you will do. Pay attention to what happens. And then - most important (!) - tell other people what you learned!

Good luck!

[brewmaster15]

How are the fish doing now?

Theres only two things that come to mind to explain all the fish gasping at the top of the tank... CO2 poisoning/oxygen deficiency or a chemical toxin other than CO2... and since CO2 looks to be unlikely for multiple reasons.. that leaves other culprits..

I'd call the municipal water supply.. and see if they had to either flush the lines or work on them in your area prior to your last water change.

The LFS is wacked if they think that over feeding has to do with the gasping behavior... My guess is the dead ones died from whats causing the gasping and they bloated up as a result of decomposition gasses and full stomachs....it may also be overfeeding ...but its not related to the gasping .

As a side note... using Powerheads on this tank if you are trying to dose it with CO2 is counter productive. Its probably off gasing anything you put in.


When you do you water changes...what do you do? Do age and treat your water?

-al

[tacks]

Hi now that you seem to have things under control I would suggest you up date your co2 system and also buy your self a drop checker. This way you can check on your co2 in the tank. I was glad that Scolley gave you a few tips he is the one of the best in planted tanks. HTH Ed

[TJT]

How are the fish doing now?

Theres only two things that come to mind to explain all the fish gasping at the top of the tank... CO2 poisoning/oxygen deficiency or a chemical toxin other than CO2... and since CO2 looks to be unlikely for multiple reasons.. that leaves other culprits..

I'd call the municipal water supply.. and see if they had to either flush the lines or work on them in your area prior to your last water change.

The LFS is wacked if they think that over feeding has to do with the gasping behavior... My guess is the dead ones died from whats causing the gasping and they bloated up as a result of decomposition gasses and full stomachs....it may also be overfeeding ...but its not related to the gasping .

As a side note... using Powerheads on this tank if you are trying to dose it with CO2 is counter productive. Its probably off gasing anything you put in.


When you do you water changes...what do you do? Do age and treat your water?

-al


Fish are looking good, the 2 blue discus are comming out more they have been swimming with the "replaced discus all morning. Just went to feed them they all came to the surface of the water.

Im pretty sure the 2 discus i lost were from overfeeding. I bought pellets for the first time, i use to feed dried bloodworms and frozen worms but i was told the pellets are better. But i did put a lot of food in the water no realizing(as i read later) if you feed them dry and they eat a lot the food can swell in them and kill the fish.

When i found my 8 month old discus having problems swimming and sucked into my powerhead i pulled the plug on it and went to work. 3 hours later i have VERY little water movement and i think thats what caused all the fish to go to the surface of the water. They wernt showing these signs when i origianly found the dead discus and the sick one.

After i pluged the powerhead in and pulled the tube on my Co2 within a hour they fish started to go back to normal other then the blue discus color. Id says that are looking better today, and they are acting a LOT better. all of them are eating and they are all swiming around no hiding.

Im also not going to hook my Co2 back up until i get a drop checker. I think where this all fell apart was thesetup i had in my 25 galon slightly changed but i thought i could do the same thing in this 90 galon. So when i got a canister filter i didnt think about all the O2 that would be lost in the tank.

[thekeem]

Get an air pump.

It's literally laughable to fathom that a yeast based CO2 setup would poison the fish in a few days, much less a few hours. However, it is fairly clear that lack of proper aeration played a part.

Air pumps are cheap, quick, painless and any serious aquarist will probably have to use one at some point.

Good to hear your fish are doing better! :)