Discus and EI

[davejep]

Any body with a planted tank with discus using EI for dosing?
Any problems?
Recommendations?

[tacks]

Hi I have a 150 gallon planted tan with adult wilds in it. I say adults because I change 80 gallons on a Wed. and 80 gallons on a Sat. I use the EI system and have not had any major issues. My tank has co2 and lots of plants and tek lighting so every tank is different. I believe EI is a good system to follow and have for a long time. Also because of all the water I am changing I use a lot of plant tabs. HTH Ed

[CraigG]

what does EI stand for?

[tacks]

Estimative Index

[davejep]

It is the process of supplying enough nutrients for your plants so that there is always enough in the tank, You dose Macro nutrients one day, micro the next and then repeat, you do 50% water changes once a week. With the water change you assure that your nutrient level never gets too high.
It works beautifully.
Probably just going to do a bare tank, but was wondering how others have made out with it.

[calihawker]

I've tried several different dosing regimens with mixed results. The EI method has worked the best for me. 300 gallon, heavily planted, heavily stocked, high light, high tech.

Steve

[alan j t]

im doing the same aswell with the ei system
i took out all my discus thou
so i could tweek everything and not put my discus in jeppordy

[TankWatcher]

Hi davejep, this is also a subject I'm keen to learn about. So glad you asked it. Hope you don't mind me adding on to your question.

Do any of you (or have you in the past) followed EI with Discus in a display tank? Steve, are their discus in your tank?

I was using it with my planted discus tank, doing only 1 x 50% water change weekly.

I've increased water changes to 2 x 50% changes, I'm not sure how to make EI work with the dual water changes:confused:

Also, some people have questioned why I would be adding the nitrate, with discus in the tank:confused:

It would be great to hear what other are doing in this respect.

[calihawker]

I have 11 sub adults that have been in the tank for about a month now. That's not a lot of time to say what is and what isn't but there is a large school of harlequin rasboras that have been in there for a year or so. They spawn on a regular basis so that must say something about the health of the tank.

Since this is my first planted discus tank I felt it was crucial to have the planted part of it totally dialed in. My discus have always been the priority in regards to how the tank has been setup and managed and the one fact that is repeated over and over on this forum and others is that it's not the actual water parameters that affect fish health but keeping those parameters constant. Does this apply to 10-20ppm nitrates and 1-2ppm phosphates? I don't know for sure but I have talked to alot of people that are doing it with discus successfully.

Like I said, I went through several fertilizing and water change routines before settling on EI. I tried doing smaller water changes daily, I tried a constant flow from the tap, both of these methods required dosing alot more ferts and constantly testing. (theoretically, following EI eliminates the need for testing. I still test)

I think alan j t is doing the right thing in not drastically changing tank chemistry with discus in it. I think it's prudent if not necessary to acclimate the discus to these conditions slowly. I had my grow out tank situated in such a way that I was able to spend more than a week mixing water till the chemistry matched. Not once did the discus show any sign of stress.

My current dosing schedule.
300 gallon high tech tank.

1 Tbl. KN03 3x per week
1/2 tsp. KH2P04 3x per week
1/2 tsp. CSM+B 3x per week

50% w/c per week with gh booster and potassium bicarbonate.

With all this talk of fertilizing routines, keep in mind that it is secondary to good C02 levels ( a whole 'nother thread:D)

For more great info.
http://www.plantedtank.net/forums

Steve

[GrillMaster]

There is no coralation between Discus and EI dosing. It boils down to what plants you have in your tank. Keep in mind that EI dosing is geared towards medium to high light tanks with alot of varied plants to utilize the dosing regime. Each size tank with regards to the plants in them have different EI dosing regimes. A lush planted tank with high light utilizes the EI dosing since that is exactly what it is meant for. A lush planted tank will utilize everything you are feeding it via EI. A poor planted tank cant utilize the EI since the plants cant uptake the regime. Thus algae issues.

This is why just starting out in discus and likewise with planted tanks is a hard road to travel. IMO getting a thriving planted tank is harder than growing out discus nevermind trying to combine the two for the first time.

If you want a nice planted tank, strive for that. When you acheive it then try an grow out some nice discus in a separate tank. Once you have acheived both then you can combine the two. :)

[calihawker]

This is why just starting out in discus and likewise with planted tanks is a hard road to travel. IMO getting a thriving planted tank is harder than growing out discus nevermind trying to combine the two for the first time.

If you want a nice planted tank, strive for that. When you acheive it then try an grow out some nice discus in a separate tank. Once you have acheived both then you can combine the two. :)

This is absolutely the best advice.
It was well over a year before I felt comfortable enough to add discus.


Steve

[TankWatcher]

Hi guys

I already had a planted tank for 2 years, using EI & C02 injection - before I got my discus. As my discus collection grew, I saw I needed a larger tank, so around Sept 08 (roughly) my original planted tank shut down & inhabitants moved into a 7ft (after cycled). C02 moved to the new tank, which had ADA aquasoil, powersand & the powders for the planted areas (silica pool filter sand for the beach area). As ADA is so nutrient rich, I didn't really need to add ferts for the 1st month or so, but ferts are now needed.

I'm very far from expert & know there is always room for more learning, but I've had the discus & planted tank combo going on for around 18 months now.

Does this apply to 10-20ppm nitrates and 1-2ppm phosphates? I don't know for sure but I have talked to alot of people that are doing it with discus successfully.Thanks, that answers my nitrate question :)


There is no coralation between Discus and EI dosing. That's true, maybe I asked this the wrong way. Due to my discus, I changed my wc routine. 2 x 50% wc per week. EI calls for alternate dosing of micros & macros 6 days a week, followed on the 7th day by a 50% water change.

So, I'll rephase part of my question.

Do any of you follow EI but do additional water changes (over & above weekly 50% recommended by EI). How do you adjust dosing to suit the extra water changes, or do you still dose the recommened EI amounts & just ignore the extra water change?

I use this link to work out amounts needed to dose my tank http://www.theplantedtank.co.uk/EI.htm

Sorry if my question is dumb & a little unclear :undecided:

Thanks in advance for your time :)

[alan j t]

Hi guys

I already had a planted tank for 2 years, using EI & C02 injection - before I got my discus. As my discus collection grew, I saw I needed a larger tank, so around Sept 08 (roughly) my original planted tank shut down & inhabitants moved into a 7ft (after cycled). C02 moved to the new tank, which had ADA aquasoil, powersand & the powders for the planted areas (silica pool filter sand for the beach area). As ADA is so nutrient rich, I didn't really need to add ferts for the 1st month or so, but ferts are now needed.

I'm very far from expert & know there is always room for more learning, but I've had the discus & planted tank combo going on for around 18 months now.
Thanks, that answers my nitrate question :)

That's true, maybe I asked this the wrong way. Due to my discus, I changed my wc routine. 2 x 50% wc per week. EI calls for alternate dosing of micros & macros 6 days a week, followed on the 7th day by a 50% water change.

So, I'll rephase part of my question.

Do any of you follow EI but do additional water changes (over & above weekly 50% recommended by EI). How do you adjust dosing to suit the extra water changes, or do you still dose the recommened EI amounts & just ignore the extra water change?

I use this link to work out amounts needed to dose my tank http://www.theplantedtank.co.uk/EI.htm

Sorry if my question is dumb & a little unclear :undecided:

Thanks in advance for your time :)

im in the same boat tankwatcher
with changing more than 50% a week
if i changed 50% of water in the middle of the week
i would most likely dose after the w/c than before
being the case i have adults discus,not stocked to the brim with other fish
and maybe 2 feedings with foods that will not reek havoc on water quality.
if my water quality is up to par i probably wouldn't change water til the end of the week
in theory that is

my understanding with dosing nitrates is,
some planted tanks are run so well,the plants are sucking the nitrates faster than may kids eating holloween candy:)
that when you test you get a very low reading
you would have to add nitrates

in my case
i just did a testing before w/c and was getting a high reading of nitrates
so i wil dose a little less this week on nitrate

i think its easier raising discus than a high tech planted tank

[calihawker]

Robyn.
Your question is crystal clear. The answer however is mired in an unfathomable place we call mathematics. A place I tend to stay away from.:(

It's all about % of dilutions. If you go to the bottom of this link, and your math is sufficient to grasp it, It'll give you the answer.

http://www.thekrib.com/Plants/Fertilizer/pmdd-tim.html

I know it's pmdd but the bottom 2 paragraphs give a formula for the cumulative concentration after dosing and water changes for any group of elements.

Good luck!

Steve

[TankWatcher]

Thanks to you both - I will check out that link. Maths - well, never my strong point - but we'll see what I can figure out

[number1sixerfan]

I finally put my full grown discus into my planted tank. My CO2 system is coming in on wednesday from green leaf aquariums. I will also be doing EI as that is what seems to be the best bet. I will definitely report back with how everything goes!

[TankWatcher]

Hi calihawker, if you pop back to this thread, I have a question. I just noticed your mention of dosing CSM+B. I don't recognise this. What is this & what is it dosed for:confused:

Thanks in advance :)

[calihawker]

G'day Robyn!

Plantex csm+b is a trace element mix used to dose micro nutrients. Similar to seachem's flourish trace. It comes in powder form and is more economical for those of us with big tanks.


Steve

[TankWatcher]

ahhh, thanks. Is it Plantex thing only, or would any place that sells my macro powders, sell them as well?

[AndyM]

Aquariumfertilizers.com sells all of it, macros, plantex, everything. very reasonable $ too!!

[TankWatcher]

Thanks, but I'm in Australia. Not sure our customs would let me order ferts or chemicals from USA. I have never seen plantex sold here.

So, what I'm wondering is if the term "csm+b" is plantex product name - or if that is the technical name that my hydroponic source for my macro powders would recognise.

[calihawker]

I don't know if it's strictly a plantex formula thing or not. If it is, good luck figuring out what's in it.

Some chemicals are not available for import from the US, KN03 being one of them, but not all. Check with aquariumfertilizer.com. They'll be able to answer any questions about it.


Steve

[TankWatcher]

Thanks Cali, I'll try them, plus my usual source for powered macros. Otherwise, I guess it's still seachem flourish for me (but always keen to learn of a cheaper way of doing things).

Our customs is pretty strict, I'm learning since taking up this hobby they are one of the strictest. In my last edition of an Aussie aquarium mag, they mention that all swords & cyrpts are now no longer an allowed import.

[GrillMaster]

Keep in mind guys an gals that the amount of trace an macros depends on the plants, the plant load and lighting you have in your tank!!

Dosing EI is a great thing but you have to have the plants and the lighting to utilize it. If you dont have the plant load/lighting the algae will let ya know! :)

[TankWatcher]

Ok, so I'm revisiting my Q's here again. For those of you that are discus keepers & EI planted tank ppl, have you found any issues with sticking with just the one weekly 50% water change.

As I mentioned earlier in this thread, that's what I used to do. But, I constantly am hearing that with discus you need to do more than once a week - so that's what threw my EI into turmoil.

One of the things I liked so much about EI was not having to test & measure. Now, i worry about the ferts (is there enough & how does the extra wc effect levels & the only way to tell is by testing the water).

So, I'm thinking of not doing the extra water change & just going back to once a week wc & dosing EI normally.

This tank will only have adults - but they are my wilds. I never had issues with my discus when doing 1 x 50% in the past - but was I just lucky? Should I stick with the twice a week, or will my discus be safe with the reduced schedule?

Undecided.

[plecocicho]

Tankwatcher, if you add bb+lot of feeding with food that heavilly polutes water(bf)+ poor filter+near overstocked= daily changes of water. Tank with substrat and healthy large plants+dry food and frozen food (do not throw frozen food, melt it because melted water is heavy on nitrats and phosphats)+stronge large filter and stocking range 1 adult discus per 80 liters= weekly wcs.
My opinion.

[calihawker]

It's like bastalker said. Well planted, good lighting and c02, the plants will take up most of the nutrients with an EI regimen and the 50% water change resets the rest. Algae is definately a good indicator that some parameter is out of wack. c02 being a critical one.

My fish have been in this enviroment for almost 2 months now and they are very healthy. I'm following the EI regimen precisely. I was testing every week before the water change to see if there was any residual build up of something and I have since stopped testing. I have massive plant growth. When I turn on the metal halides for 3 hr's during the day, o2 bubbles are flowing off the plants, sticking to everything and pearling.

Let us know how it goes. Post some pics!!


Steve

[TankWatcher]

Thanks plecocicho & calihawker

I think I will give the 1 x 50% wc another go. The hardest thing I am finding is getting enough C02 distributed throughout the tank. I'm planning on putting a splitter on the line & having it enter from both ends, coming out of a rhinnox 5000. If still not enough distribution, I may need to look into positioning a pump above the rhinnox, that sucks in water & C02 bubbles & shoots it across the tank.

I will post pictures soon, I am holding out until I sort the discus out between the tanks, so all the wilds are together & all the domestics are together. Here's a sneaky peak of some of my crypts. There are now green wendtii crypts in between the red tropica's, so less of the substrate is exposed currently, then this picture shows.
http://i95.photobucket.com/albums/l128/TankWatcher/138G_523L_Discus%20Tank/000_0723.jpg

calihawker, I guess I will find pica of youe your tanks somewhere on this forum?

[calihawker]

The hardest thing I am finding is getting enough C02 distributed throughout the tank.

You're right on track there. That was one of the most challenging things I had to deal with, the tank being 8 feet long and 30 inces deep. It took me a while to understand the importance of good c02 distribution. Contrary to popular opinion, you can't just throw a drop checker in the tank and know you have good c02.


I'm going to start a new thread with updated pics of my tank today.


Steve