Angels & Discus

[Blue Ram]

I have two guyana angels I am picking up today. I would like to put them in my 90 gal discus tank which houses 6 adult discus. Angels will be quarantined first. I've heard rumors that angelfish carry some diseases that discus are not immune to. Rumor or truth?? I would not like to jeopardize the health of my discus in any way but I would really like to put the angels in there. Good idea or bad?? Angels are not full grown.

[Tropical Haven]

That is true that angels do carry diseases that the discus aren't immune too.

Secondly I wouldn't add the angels with the discus until the angels are full grown because they eat so much when they are younger that your discus will starve.

[johnm]

i believe that is false. There isnt a mysterious unknown illness that only infects angels. as long as you quarantine for 4-6 weeks and practice good husbandry you wont have any probs. i too am adding angels to my tank.

[aquadiva]

I heard that "wild caught" angels can carry a disease which can affect Discus. Like previous comments, I'm not sure if this is true or not but I have heard this for years. :gossip:

Ironically I just ran into an old friend at the LFS and he had a huge beautiful Discus fish. :fish: He brought home two solid black Angels, something he's always wanted to add to the tank, and just put them in with his Discus, no quarantine! The next day the Discus was covered in white film and died soon after despite efforts to save him. Apparently the Angelfish had something while at the LFS that was missed and then introduced into his tank. What a shame! :cry: Quarantine any new fish!

Anna

[cquann]

Well, out of my own experience. Doesn't matter if baby angelsor adult angels i had no problem with keep them together. I had 8 discuses and 3 koi angels in 60gal light planted(pot plants) together for over a year. I found that more exciting with keep them together, your angels will grow super fast and super huge within 2 months(my feeding schedule 3 cube of FBH 4cubes FBW morning, 1 cube of FBH 2cubes of FBW and some granules pellets afternoon,2cubes FBH, 4 cubes of FBW evening...and some more FBW and pellet thru out the night until i go sleep. but with my feeding schedule like that you just have gotta keep up with water change tho...80% water change daily...good luck....:)

[Tropical Haven]

I think there was a misconception here.

1. Nobody said that you can't keep angels with discus because I do without any problems. Do to my knowledge of having these together over the years is smaller angels are like living garbage disposals because they have a mighty appetite at a young age while adult size angels don't consume as much. This gives the discus a better chance at eating their share of food.

2. Noone is talking about a mysterious disease when it comes to angels. The only thing that I mentioned is that some angels can live healthy lives with either some parasite or disease without knowing it. But with introducing an angel that can be carrying it will pass it to a discus who will react quickly to it.

[ChaTrain57]

I have to agree with most everyone on here about younger angels being like garbage disposals with fins, but, I have kept them with discus without problems. The only thing that I can suggest is possibly feeding an extra time or two a day, so that everyone can eat. The angels may be the first up to grab the food, but, I've had full grown discus bump angels out of the way to make sure that they (the discus) are the first to eat, and that the angels need to wait their turn.

Plus, there's something to be said about a well-maintained tank with discus and angels as the centerpieces. Nothing like seeing several large healthy adult discus and angels with a couple of schools of neons swimming about! :D

I also have not heard of any diseases that angels are immune to that they can transfer to discus. As long as you take the time to properly quarantine your fish, and ensure their good health before adding them to your discus tank, I'm pretty sure that you shouldn't have a problem.

[William Palumbo]

All Angels aquired from ANOTHER source should be treated like a Discus and quarantined before adding to the tank. In my experience the Angels..Uaru...and Severums carry the same types of parasites that the Discus do...and ANY one of them can infect the other, as all three are prone to catching the same things....Bill

[grandrapids9]

Hi, I have two angels with 4 Discus, all juveniles, the angles and discus are growing like crazy, no one bothers each other, and as far as feeding, I feed about 7 times a day, all smaller amounts from 8 in the morning until 8PM.

I would say go ahead, but I do agree all of them are pigs when younger, I would not put small angels in with adult discus through.

They are feed mostly beefheart and some blood worms, and once in awhile I may put in some scrimp in the mix - I feed nothing but frozen foods. The angels will eat flake, the discus will not touch it.

[Dischris]

ANY fish can spread diseases. Yes quarantine is important. Animals in the wild are exposed to different diseases/parasites than in captivity(some are the same though). If an animal has never been exposed to it before, it can have devastating effects(settlers diseases killed countless native americans back in the day for this very same reason) because the animal has built no natural immunities to that specific parasite/disease. Most fish normally have a managable number of parasites living in their intestines. This is a parasitic symbiatic relationship which is usually fine until a fish gets exposed to less than optimal conditions. Whether it's poor water conditions, malnutrition, overcrowding, or being picked on too much...all of these factors can lead to a less efficient immune system which in turn results in the fish becoming more susceptible to the parasites/disease taking over. Yadadimean!?

[poconogal]

I have two guyana angels I am picking up today. I would like to put them in my 90 gal discus tank which houses 6 adult discus. Angels will be quarantined first. I've heard rumors that angelfish carry some diseases that discus are not immune to. Rumor or truth?? I would not like to jeopardize the health of my discus in any way but I would really like to put the angels in there. Good idea or bad?? Angels are not full grown.
Any fish can carry something that another won't be immune to. Even Discus from different sources can carry something that your other Discus won't be immune to. Even if you QT for 6 weeks, your new fish can be just fine, and your current stock can be just fine. Then, when the new are finally put in with the old, bam, your Discus are sick, usually your original ones first because the new ones introduced something that didn't make them sick, but made your originals sick. That is why many will put one of their original Discus, one that is not as nice as their others, in with their new Discus in QT for at least two weeks prior to putting the new discus into their tank with their others.

[pcsb23]

I think Connies advice is spot on :) I like angels too.

[ShinShin]

Angels may or may not carry this disease I hear about. Probabally don't. Either way, angels are best kept with angels and not discus in the long term.

Mat

[KDodds]

I've actually heard from quite a number of successful discus keepers now that, if you're doing things right and your discus are healthy, the discus will eventually (obviously) outgrow the angels. At some point, the discus may actually attack the angels, damaging them severely or killing them. Keeping in mind that these warnings are coming from people who've kept the two together, sometimes exact individuals, for 10 years, or more. IOW, if your discus and angels are healthy, robust, alert, etc., the angels are actually in more danger from the discus, comparing adult to adult, long term.

[pcsb23]

Many years ago the angel fish population was threatened by what became known as the singapore disease. This would have been around the mid 1980's. This disease spread like wildfire through the angel farms in singapore and asia. Precisely what this disease was I don't know but to all intents and purposes it has now been irradicated. It is likely that putting angels that had been exposed to this disease (or were carriers) into a discus tank simply passed it on to the discus. As discus and angels are pretty close cousins it is quite reasonable that they would be affected by the same pathogens.

I have never seen or heard of discus attacking angels before.

Ultimately whether you choose to keep them together or not is your call, personally I am glad I got over my prejudices.

[poconogal]

My angel shoaled with my Discus, they hung out together all the time. I'm convinced that the angel thought it was the same as the Discus only with longer fins, LOL. I never saw a single incidence of aggression from a Discus to the Angel or from the Angel to the Discus, they were totally peaceful with each other, which we certainly can't say about Discus amongst themselves. :D And at feeding time, the Discus were pushing the Angel out of the way to get at the food.

[Eyecandy]

Hi. My experiences were the same as Connies.
I had heard not to put angels with my discus for many years. Then we were given some beautiful adult koi angels. I was afraid to put any in my 120 gallon discus tank. I gave the pair to someone who wanted to breed them and kept the other 2 after qt, in a 29 gallon with some tetras.. well turns out they were both males and did not play nice with each other.. So I crossed my fingers and put one in with the discus.. I swear he thought he was a discus.. schooled with them and everything.. often the discus outraced him to the food.. I sold the discus because I thought we were moving a lot sooner than it now turns out but still have the angelfish.. He now gets along with my baby geos.. I think the angels and discus look beautiful together.. I would have no worries about putting adult discus with any size angel especially if the discus own the tank first.
I would suggest however that you watch the angels as if they form a pair then all bets are off. They can get nasty.. Good luck with your tank.. Sue:D

[ShinShin]

Paul,

You are refering to what we call the plague now, right? Angel and discus hatcheries were wiped out at the same time. Not all fish are susceptable to the plague. I believe oscars can get it, too.

Mat

[Graham]

Back in the early 80's it didn't matter where we brought Angels in from for the stores; Florida or the Orient they all died with a week or so. It was a virus but no one could figure out how to stop it.

The current research on KHV within the koi hobby figures that the Angel virus and other species specific viruses and the Koi virus are very similar and they are all members of the herpes clan....no cure.

[pcsb23]

Paul,

You are refering to what we call the plague now, right? Angel and discus hatcheries were wiped out at the same time. Not all fish are susceptable to the plague. I believe oscars can get it, too.

Mat
Hi Mat, it was often referred to as the plague. It is as some know not something I would use as a description for the disease. I have my own theories but these are purely that. And yes Oscars and other cichlids were susceptible. I suspect it was (or is) a virus of some sort. I have not seen anything that remotely comes near it since then, at least not in cichlids.


Back in the early 80's it didn't matter where we brought Angels in from for the stores; Florida or the Orient they all died with a week or so. It was a virus but no one could figure out how to stop it.

The current research on KHV within the koi hobby figures that the Angel virus and other species specific viruses and the Koi virus are very similar and they are all members of the herpes clan....no cure.
It's a possibility that it was a virus, as I said above. The Koi virus from my limited understanding of it, seems to be more resistant to treatment, which is a worry. This is where prevention is better than cure imo.

With angels and discus we could lower the ph to what some would consider dangerous levels. Fresh air, air drawn from outside of the fish room, preferably outdoors. This was mainatined for weeks on end, it saved more than it lost, but for those that went through it, it was very harrowing.

As I said above I have not seen any examples of this in the last decade or more. Those that have reckoned to be the plague have turned out to be a bacterial infection.

[ShinShin]

Paul,

An ichthyologist friend of mine here in the Seattle area who had his angelfish hatchery wiped out in the mid '80's conducted much research on the disease, some published, and he concluded that it was a viral infection, not that unlike the AIDS virus. After failing to cure it with drugs of any combination, he finally filtered the water with a filter that was able to filter out all bacteria. He had a friend from the Midwest send angelfish that were unaffected by the disease. He placed the clean angels in the tank. All were infected, but not all died. He began treating "symptoms", and lowered the pH. Long story short, after reaching 4.0pH he kept it there. Scrapings showed that bacteria and protozoans were causing the symptoms. The low pH inhibited the oppurtunistic pathogens. Those that died, died from the secondary infections he believes, just like AIDS. Those that lived, recovered, but remained carriers. Wattley cured the plague in a very similar manner, only used temp and very acidic water to accomplish his cure. I actually emailed Jack's column, explaining my friends conclusions, and asked his opinion, but he was very ambiguous in his answer. It appeared in Tropical Fish Hobbyists like 8 years ago. He believes that if you can keep a discus alive through the secondary infections, it may survive the primary disease. I recall JW stating the same, but don't quote me on that one. Anyway, this ichthyologist recommended my current QT regime. He used it on discus and other cichlids while employed by the largest tropical fish wholesaler in the PAC NW.

I recall a heartworm of some sort being the evil pathogen angels pass on to discus.

Mat

[pcsb23]

Mat, from memory when discus or angels were examined there was usually a lot of things going on with often quite a mixed variety of parasite present. The consensus then was this was all secondary. I'm trying to remember who it was in the UK sent fish to a path lab, but it escapes me at the moment. Their findings were inconclusive, the notable thing was there was different bacterial infections within the same batch of fish. Secondariness? Probably I think, but I don't know. I don't recall mention of heartworms, but they may not have been looked for.

I have a good friend in the UK who often states "it's about eliminating known risks" he is of course quite right.

[brewmaster15]

I thinks there's alot of speculation on the pathogen responsible for the Discus Plagues of old and the Angel Fish Plagues as well.... As far as I know... no single pathogen was ever "positively" identified....and unfortunately back then...the science wasn't what it is now.. We may never really know the culprit of those mysteries....though the general consensus is virus of some sort and possibly air born as well.

One thing that I know Is anytime you introduce 2 fish from different places issues can happen and it doesn't need to be different species..... I don't think it really matters if they are Angels and discus....though in biology.. species closely related are more likely to pass pathogens to each other than not.

I think if the fish are from healthy stock, in most cases you are fine to mix Angels and Discus if adults....but I think that juvenile angels will out eat juvenile discus ( personal experience) and that Angels are so similar to discus that they can get along well enough side by side under normal circumstances....I find Angels tend eat more from the water column where as discus tend to like the bottom feeding...so when I keep them together... a good flake and a good sinking pellet work well.

I guess I could say more but sometimes movies say it best as to Discus Angel fish compatibility;):D (sorry Couldn't resist!)..

I did some experiments a few years ago where I had two pairs of discus raise angels from eggs to fry.:)

http://i96.photobucket.com/albums/l199/brewmaster15/th_10_14_06_05.jpg (http://s96.photobucket.com/albums/l199/brewmaster15/?action=view&current=10_14_06_05.flv)






http://i96.photobucket.com/albums/l199/brewmaster15/th_10_14_06_01.jpg (http://s96.photobucket.com/albums/l199/brewmaster15/?action=view&current=10_14_06_01.flv)


http://i96.photobucket.com/albums/l199/brewmaster15/th_10_14_06_04.jpg (http://s96.photobucket.com/albums/l199/brewmaster15/?action=view&current=10_14_06_04.flv)

[William Palumbo]

Al, that was COOL!...I NEVER saw anything like that in the hobby before, never even heard of it!. Is it a "natural" instinct for angel fry to behave like that?...Bill

[brewmaster15]

Thanks Bill,
I've repeated this many times and the results are always the same.:)

I had posted a long thread on this a few years ago... He's the link...

http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?t=53612

I need to redo some of the movies links one of these days..

glad it interests you!

-al

[hakka_deimos]

i have an anglefish in with my discus and i enjoy him in there because he melted in to there "pecking order" perfectly... he gets picked on and picks on others just the same