HUGE GILLS!

[Roxanne]

G'Day DL's (Discus Lovers)

I've been watching a sick discus waste away in a shop for a few weeks now. (No, the owner is a DL too and he's stumped) He was fine and paired up with a really intense female and since he couldn't "perform", she picked on him until he is now like a divorced man-weak, disorientated, emaciated, fins damaged, can't find his food, but the scary part is his gills stick out soo far I've never seen anything like it. He's about a 12cm speckled whatever and his gills stick out probably 2cm - Im scared to take a pic cos he's so freaked out anyway the flash might kill him....but those gills! I was thinking of buying him cos maybe he is just sick of being looked at, and if I brought him home to a quiet environment with another passive fish, he may recover. Now, do I sound like I'm wasting my time? He has been treated for worms I think, but he hasn't passed any odd colour poo..I already suggested HITH to the owner who doesn't think it's that.thoughts please...

Roxanne

[John_Nicholson]

My guess would be either gill flukes or bad water conditions. Personally I would never, ever buy a sick discus. To many good fish around to have a bad one.

-john

[kaceyo]

Whatever you do, don't take this fish home and put it in a tank with healthy fish. The chance that it will pass something on to your fish is too high to risk it. Sounds like it has a parasite problem that wasn't dealt with and was allowed to develope into an infection and possibly permanent gill damage. If it were mine I would do a PP treatment first, then put it on an antibiotic like furan 2 or oxytetracyclin. A Formalin/Malachite Green based med like Quick Cure could be used in place of the PP treatment.

Kacey

[Roxanne]

Thanks you guys..

RE: The tank water, this guys been in the same shop about 20 years, The water conditions in this guys tank are so good, they really are like pets to him even though its a LFS, and none of his other fish are sick, in fact I want the beautiful big bossy b**** as a breeder. She really is stunning. Advice noted with thanks about putting the sick one in with one of my calm healthys. If I can get a picture without using a flash on him, it might be more insightful or good for future reference. He seemed fine until she started picking on him. Maybe, the constant harrassment just weakened him, yeah? And if their is such a thing as fishy intuition, would she have knowingly chosen a sick mate when there are so many others in the tank? Has anyone else seen harrassment do this to a fish? I did read in the forum that stress can bring out disease which is why I am wondering that. I have a rescue urge to satiate, and I thought he might SIMPLY (pun intended)just need calm & peace away from the shop...the size of the gills though ...I can't shut up about them...

[Roxanne]

Oh And KaceyO
...will pass on your recommendations to shop owner.. thanks John also..

[Roxanne]

I found a picture I took of the LFS tank with the female Melon in the foreground which I want and below her is the peppered male she paired with but is now really sick..see how nice his tank is?...

[TankWatcher]

Hi Roxanne, you've got a kind heart :angel:
but it's not really something I would do - not unless I had a quarantine tank to put the fish in. I'd be cautious about buying any other fish (even if it looked healthy) if it was in the same tank as a fish I could tell was obviously ill. Absolutely do not put this sick fish, or even the female you would like, in the same tank at home with existing stock - it's just not worth it to risk losing the ones you already love, for the chance of saving this sick one.

If you have a QT ready, with a cycled filter, and if you have your heart set on the rescue, go ahead. As long as you are prepared to face that it might not end happily. It is really heartbreaking to watch a discus starve to death.

Even if you bought what looked like perfectly healthy fish, from another source, I would still QT for minimum of 1 month. I learnt the importance of this the hard way. I currently have a batch in QT since 12 Oct. They have been given a 4 week cycle of precautionary worming treatments. I am still a little too cautious to combine them with my existing stock. Think I will wait another month.

Good luck with whatever you decide.

[Roxanne]

Thank You Robyn for your kind words, I will QT the big girl when I get her, tanks not ready yet anyway....

All advice appreciated and taken to heart. If the guy will let me take him, I would like to try and save him. He is QT'd in the shop, but there's no one there at night to monitor him. I will QT him & try KaceyO's remedy strategy.

John, you practical guy you, I know you are right, there ARE too many good fish out there and I shouldn't be losing sleep over 1 sick fish that isn't even mine, I just can't help myself, I really want to TRY to save him. I can't think of any reason except that I love discus....

I thank you all sincerely for your input, and I will keep you threaded on this little guys progress...

[Roxanne]

..update...I found out he has been wormed & treated for flukes...will take pic of him on thursday..

[Roxanne]

I visited him today-yes he's still alive...as I walked toward the tank, he was at like a 30 degree angle..he kind of said hello then went back to his corner...this is heartbreaking...what's even worse, I was looking at the Melon I want, and I noticed ALL the discus are starting to waste away! 8 of them. The melon has a lump near the end of her body near her tail and what blew me away, was the sales woman trying to tell me thats just where her tail bone joins onto her body! I thought, maybe she can't see what I'm talking about so I insisted I could see a lump, she insisted thats the way she always looks. I can't believe it! I KNOW this fish. I have been around this fish ALOT because I wanted to buy her. I've been waiting for her for months. She was stunning, and now, I don't know what's going on. But, all the discus in his tank are starting to look thin. The guy Owner could hardly answer me when I asked what he keeps the PH at the other day. And to top it all off, the sales chic tries to tell me the Prime water cond is better than the Aqua One (cheaper) I had in my hand, cos she says that one doesn't get rid of heavy metals. I stuck it in her face and said, Yes it does! Retailers will say anything to sell stuff! Now I'm questioning EVERYTHING! I'm devastated..but...What are ya gonna do?..but, at least I know I'll get some goodies from Rod soon enough...;)

[aquadiva]

Hi Roxanne,

You do have a big heart :heart2: to want to save this Discus! I don't like to see them suffer at an LFS either, it is heartbreaking! :cry: Sometimes you just want to start doing water changes on the tank right there in the store and treat them and take ACTION if the employees seem too clueless to know there is a problem. :confused: The best thing this LFS could do is put a "Not for sale" sign on this tank you are looking at with the Discus in it and treat it, then do daily water changes for a good duration and see if the fish recover fully.

I have to give our LFS credit. They have a Discus tank and the Discus became ill because an employee who didn't know any better, put a "new" Discus from shipment in with the other's, didn't quarantine him and the whole tank became ill. They followed the proper procedure, treated, LOTS of water changes and the fish are still not for sale but they look much better! (actually they look very good now) Many other LFS would sell them right now but they are waiting a bit longer to be safe. That is admirable and this is what your LFS should be doing with these poor Discus.

So, if you decide to rescue the one Discus, trust me, you'll be going back and looking at the other's (because you have a huge heart and care :heart1:) which by the way is a GOOD quality in a human being! And you are going to want to save them all! It will be a vicious cycle unless this LFS takes the proper action as described above and is more careful with their Discus.

If you do rescue this Discus, I would sure like to hear how things go either way. Just be VERY careful and don't use any of your equiptment in this quarantine tank, including your siphon and bucket, for your current tank(s) at home. You don't want to transmit anything to your (healthy) Discus. It's not worth it! Think about this very carefully before you decide. Your Discus at home are counting on you also to keep them safe and healthy. Good luck, not an easy decision when you are a rescuer at heart! ;) I have that same kind of "rescue" instinct in me, but I also feel it is my responsibility to keep my own Discus at home "Safe". Years ago I would have done what you are doing, now I would just try and educate the pet store owner and let them become more responsible with the Discus they keep. If they are open to it, Great! The Discus have a chance. If they are not, you will always see sickly Discus there from time to time and it is better not to look. Just my opinion. :angel:

Anna

[Roxanne]

Hi Anna, u are an :angel: to say such kind things:)

You made me laugh, cos thats exactly what I feel like doing when I see a tank needs a clean:mad:, or a fish isn't well! Only last week I had to point out to another LFS that one of the xxylottls, axylotls, axolottels, (help!) oh you know what I mean was DEAD in a tank:confused: She says, oh it's just resting, and I say, No, It's just ROTTING! You nailed it when you said "educate". I guess I'm a little scared to come right out with it to my Discus LFS because I don't want to come off like a know it all, just because I have been enlightened by this simplyfabulous forum, doesn't make me an expert (yet..) . I've made suggestions such as John advised & I have dropped this site's name to him a few times hoping he would get onboard the simplytrain and get some education, but he says he has no time for the internet....I will say though, this guy does love discus and I think he's just at a loss..is unaware of new thoughts on discus keeping..and very busy.

I'm taking the advise I have been given by the experts here on SD, hard as it is and I won't buy these fish. :(Can't believe I said it) I can explain to him why I don't want them now because that's a way of opening up the conversation about their health. And Anna, you've inspired me to take a firmer stand with shop Owners when I see this type of thing in future. I'll probably spend all nite reading this forum again so I get my facts straight and I'll go see him tomorrow when the 'know it all' saleswoman isn't there! If the LFS won't come to the website, the website can come to the LFS!

Thanks for your encouragement:)

And to everyone else for taking the time to respond.;)

[TankWatcher]

Hey Roxanne, for the sake of your existing discus, I'm glad you've decided not to take any of these fish home, though I know that was a sad decision for you :(

I think your soft heart extends to this LFS owner as well & you give him more credit than maybe he deserves. From what I'm reading here, this guy knew the male discus was sick & even though he eventually removed the sick discus out of the display tank & away from the other discus, he should have known there was a good chance the balance of the discus could be next up on the sick list. He should have stuck a "not for sale" sign on the main discus tank, only removing that sign after a disease free min period of 6 weeks. As it turns out, they are now sick too. You say he is unaware of new thoughts on discus keeping - but quarantining the sick (or new) & being aware to watch for spread of disease isn't really a "new thought". I can accept he loves his discus, but loving them isn't enough. It seems he really doesn't know what you'd expect someone in the business for 20 years & selling discus ought to know.

He's probably a lovely guy, Roxanne, with the best intentions. I don't want to come across as too harsh - but I would hesitate to buy any fish from a LFS who didn't understand basic quarantine procedures. I'm glad to hear you are buying your discus from a fresh source (but still, you should QT your new fish - even when from an excellent source).

If you have the time & patience for it, sure, keep visiting the shop, chatting to the owner & try to pass on some knowledge - but buy your fish elsewhere.

Like Anna, I think your first responsibility is to your existing discus - to keep them safe & not risk them. If you aren't careful, you can transfer a disease from QT to your display, by forgetting to use separate buckets, gravel vacs, nets etc for the QT.

I guess one day soon we will see pictures of your fish from Rod :)

[Roxanne]

Hi Robyn:)

I was waiting for you to pat me on the head!!:D:D:D

If I can at least convince him to check his water instead of guessing..I've asked him twice what he keeps their ph at and twice I've got a fuzzy answer...in fact, I suggest around 6.5 ish and he just sort of agrees but doesn't seem convinced...when I mentioned about my PH crash to the chic in the shop, she looked at me like I was speaking a foreign language. I agree with you these are not necessarily "new thoughts" as in new discoveries or something, but maybe these LFS's from the stoneage actually DONT know how to keep tropical fish AT ALL! My next question is, when does this become animal cruelty? If you left a dog in a car to suffocate you would be a cruel person would you not? So, why is it ok for them to be able to suffocate their fish? I saw a REALLY bad example of a LFS recently (I've seen them all in Sydney I think..)could barely see the fish through the glass, a beautiful saltwater blue tang I would love to have aquired, wanted to buy it just to save it from suffocation!
I'll start the RSPCF. Roxanne's Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Fish... Who wants to join? :balloon::D
Cheers!

[Roxanne]

....update....(Al, if you think this thread is a waste of space, I will understand if you shut it down....:))

ok, talked with the guy owner this morning. I told him what had happened with my PH and asked him if his could have done the same thing. He was sure his water's ok but, he said that of the stock he bought from that supplier, he sold one blue diamond and that fish is 4 times its size and very fat..?:confused:.. When I said that I noticed the fish look skinny he said that for some reason his fish grow really well to a certain point and then they would just start to get skinny? He feeds them Hikari & a good flake twice a day...there are alot of other fish in the display tank...neons, cardinals, butterfly cichlids, suckers blah blah...he has a bunch of baby discus in another tank, he said they do really well and then when they get older start to skinny up. Doesn't this sound like the water to you guys? Or a better question would be, why would a fish do really well and then get skinny?

And re: the melon's "lump", he reckons that's just how she is.....:confused:

[TankWatcher]

You know Roxanne, I think you're wasting your time with this LFS guy. I don't think he will admit to you there is any fault with his method? He doesn't sound open to learn. You're a potential customer, he wants to tell you his fish are great & that you should buy them. Maybe i'm getting the wrong impression & judging him harshly, but that's how it's starting to sound.

One thing I have read over & over again on various forums is that juvenile discus do not grow well in a planted tank. They tend to become stunted. Best to grow them up in a bare bottom & transfer them to the planted tank when adult. If he is moving the juveniles to the planted tank, before they are grown up, that might be why they don't grow to potential. As well as never reaching a good size, a stunted discus will have eyes that are too small in proportion to his body.

[Roxanne]

Mate, I think you're right on all counts. If I didn't have you guys to chat with I'd still be a mushroom! (Locked in a closet and fed ........!)

And, pondering on what you just said, he's actually answered his own problem!.....he admitted when he moved them, they got skinny over time...ka ching...it's THAT TANK!!!

Thanks TW:):):):):)

[TankWatcher]

Hey, your sense of humor cracks me up Roxanne :D :jester: :D

[Roxanne]

:D:D:):D;)

[rfeiller]

there is no such thing as a "clean" planted tank. parasite eggs and larva thrive in that arena. meds will many times kill the plants.

[Don Trinko]

I'm no expert but I would guess that more wc are neccisary and they might have an internal bacterial infection.
I have read that the swollen gills can be caused by kidney disease. The recomended treatment was erythromycin.
Don T.

[Roxanne]

...more wc are neccisary and they might have an internal bacterial infection...
...swollen gills can be caused by kidney disease. The recomended treatment was erythromycin.
Don T.

G'day Don, How are you?

Thanks for that. . Wow. Then, Is it possible that "a" bacteria in the tank is causing a kidney disease, manifesting itself with the swollen gills? That would explain why treatment is ineffective and then also why the others look as if they are going to go the same way, they are losing weight but still ravenous and alert, clear poopy...no crap at all hanging from the gills...but he- the worst affected, is disorientated and has a hard time finding his food. Swims right past it. But comes up to the glass to say hello to me, then goes back to his corner. A very bittersweet experience..

The others are still in a Community Tank with alot of other species of fish so God only knows what's in that water really. I'll suggest the erythromycin to him. It's easier than trying to convince him there is something wrong with that tank. I've got Africans & Gouramis but I'd never consider putting them in with my discus.....Will check on the little guy again this week and see how he's doin'.

Thanks Don, Robyn & everybody else for your help & kind words.:)