Question about Carbon

[Joshcat]

We just set up a new 55gal with an Aquaclear 70 power filter with the 3 stage filtration system.

1st Stage: Sponge
2nd Stage: Active Carbon Filter
3rd Stage: Bio Pellets

Ive heard conflicting stuff about the carbon filter and have some questions:

1-Should I take the carbon out of my filter?

2-If so should I replace it with anything?

3-If so should I wait for my tank to cycle before I take it out?

[Eddie]

Hey Josh,

I'm sure you'll find lots of info on carbon usage on here. I don't use carbon and you will probably find that there aren't many on here that do. I know some use carbon to remove meds after treatments. You should just add another sponge or some bio media in place of the carbon. Are you cycling your filter with the 8 discus?

Eddie

[Don Trinko]

For many medications you have to remove the carbon and thus it is used for that. Otherwise carbon is not a problem but it quickly absorbs things from the water and becomes saturated and can absorb no more. In this state it is of no use other than to provide a place for the nitrifing bacteria, Not near as good a place as a sponge or other filter materials.
Don T.

[Joshcat]

No our discus are in a QT tank, that is well established for many years. At the cost of these little guys that would be way to much of a gamble for us.

We are actually cycling this tank fish less. We have a Aqua Clear filter that comes with carbon and have used carbon filters for many years,( not with discus) and have read much controversy on this topic.

We are just trying to establish the best way to filter a discus tank, wondering if we should remove the carbon out of the Aqua Clear filter, that is on the cycling tank? It is bb with a sponge filter in addition to the HOB.

Thanks, Josh and Cathy

[Don Trinko]

If you are going to use medications take the carbon out, If not it is your choice. It will not hurt anything. Don T.

[Eddie]

I would never use activated carbon as biological media in any aquarium. I did when I was 5 years old... because I kept gold fish.

Eddie

[Eddie]

Aquarium gee-wiz

"A form of carbon derived mostly from charcoal with ideal surface area and porosity for the adsorption of chemical compounds from your water, like medicines, odors or discoloration. Carbon must be changed every 1-2 months, to avoid leaching impurities back into the water."

If I throw out my biofilter every month or so, I guess I'll just have to re-cycle my tank too. :D

[Graham]

[B]G

[Bobears]

Activated Carbon does not, will not and can not leach anything back into the water that it has chemically absorbed!

G

Is the operative word here "chemically?" I'm not a big poster here and have read great posts by you Graham, but I'm going to need you to back this statement up with little clarification. Are we saying carbon in water never breaks down? Sure the half life is forever but in a medium? Please explain.

[1077]

IMHO I believe the key words are ADSORPTION and ABSORPTION. As I understand it, Once the impurities are bound to carbon they are not released .

[Eddie]

I'm not sure how to start a poll, otherwise I would but I would be very interested to know how many people on this site, that have Discus, use activated carbon in their tanks. I'm thinking......hmmmm.......15% max and I'd like to know how many tanks they have and Id like to see pictures of their fish. :D

[Eddie]

Read line 7

http://www.simplydiscus.com/library/discus_husbandry/discus_basics/discus_4beginner.shtml

Hmmm

[1077]

www.hallman.org/filter/gac.html is an interesting article on how carbon works. In my own personal view the burden of proof does not lie with the fish given the fact that too many other variables come into play butrather the burden of proof lies upon those who declare it harmful to fish when there is no solid evidence to support such a claim. I realize this topic has been beat like a rented mule and I have no desire to resume the debate. It is in my view a matter of preference.

[Eddie]

Thats fine that evidence can or can't be brought to light but the real question is for those who would say that activated carbon is a superior bio media. Do you actually use activated carbon in your filters? :)

[Roxanne]

For many medications you have to remove the carbon and thus it is used for that. Otherwise carbon is not a problem but it quickly absorbs things from the water and becomes saturated and can absorb no more. In this state it is of no use other than to provide a place for the nitrifing bacteria, Not near as good a place as a sponge or other filter materials.
Don T.

This was the answer in a couple of sentences, and if the honorable Don Trinko doesn't mind, I would just like to add this...if it is an impossibility for carbon to release stored crap:D after it has used up it's binding capabilities, it just doesn't work anymore. That's it. All it is then is media with a bunch of bacteria on it.I think it causes debate over nothing when a statement such as "crap is released back out" which should be replaced by, no more crap can be absorbed.

I have a fridge filter with a carbon cartridge. When the carbon has finished all and any filtering ability of my drinking water, I replace it. It doesn't leach anything back into the drinking water if I don't replace it, it just doesn't work anymore!!!

:p

PS: Bassy I was thinking that very same thing today...how many of the breeders use it?

[Graham]

[

[1077]

I will say that in my view there is little more pourus than carbon but I do not rely on it as primary source of bio- media.

[Eddie]

The ultimate question is...should the young man,who posted the thread about using AC in his filter, use AC as media for his filter. Do you recommend it? Is it by far the best option for his set-up?

No chance

1077, are you using it then? What filter set-up do you have that benefits from using AC?

[1077]

I use four emperor 400's . Two on 80 gal and two on 75 gal I use the cartridges (carbon) until they begin to deteriorate rinsing them out in tank water at changes. The extra media cartridges are filled with ceramic beads two cartridges for each filter . Biowheels are also providing surface area for bacteria. Carbon prolly only active for a couple weeks tops, It then becomes mechanical filter. Also use floss only in two emperor 280's on 29 gal tanks .

[Graham]

//

[Eddie]

I use four emperor 400's . Two on 80 gal and two on 75 gal I use the cartridges (carbon) until they begin to deteriorate rinsing them out in tank water at changes. The extra media cartridges are filled with ceramic beads two cartridges for each filter . Biowheels are also providing surface area for bacteria. Carbon prolly only active for a couple weeks tops, It then becomes mechanical filter. Also use floss only in two emperor 280's on 29 gal tanks .

So the greatest and most beneficial part of your filter is not the AC:confused:

I too have 2 ea Penguin 350s and the bio wheels handle the bio. The extra slots for cartridges are filled with ehiem ehfisubstrate so my set-up is similar to yours. I use prefilters on my intake tubes so I don't need the replacement cartridges....at all.

[1077]

As stated previously, I do not rely on activated carbon as primary bio- media although it does provide it in addition to that I have described. As also stated previously, I believe it to be a matter of preference. Given it's abilities to remove pollutants (while active) I could not ,nor would not ,advise against it.

[Eddie]

Sounds great but it does remove beneficial trace elements too, when it's active. Guess when it's spent it doesn't remove pollutants or trace elements. Thats when it's probably best? :confused:

I was wondering also, what if you used something that you never had to replace....something that wouldn't keep costing $$$. I'll save the extra loot and buy what....Hmmmm.......more discus! Oh yeah, that does sound good!

[Roxanne]

[QUOTE=basshead;481623]So the greatest and most beneficial part of your filter is not the AC:confused:
QUOTE]


Don't think that's what he meant bassy. If I may, I think he meant the greatest and most beneficial part of the carbon filter after it has served it's purpose is the bacteria ON the carbon...and as someone above said (sorry,can't see who from here)it is extremely porous. You know all this...isn't it under Cycled Tank 101?

I've got it in some of my filters but, that's because I was removing protozin. Then, I just leave them in there now because they are cycled, and as Graham said LOADED with beneficial baccy. Just like the zeolite in my canister filter that probably doesn't work anymore, but it's cycled media to me now..

I also think, IMHO I'm sure we can all agree that it serves a purpose, and leaving it in there obviously can't be hurting the discus because it's not absorbing anything good or bad or "leaching" anything bad....

:alien:

[Eddie]

Who says....

There has to be evidence, raise Discus from the same spawn in 2 separate tanks. One tank, no AC and the other, AC that will remain in the filter the entire time until full growth. I'd have to see that but don't have the fish or the time...LOL :D

[Graham]

AC

[Eddie]

I agree Graham and I definitely agree on the fact that companies just wanna keep some source of income after they sell their products. Hence the old...replace the cartridge every month or two. Not this guy :)

[Bobears]

3rd there is a molecular bound that takes place between the AC and certain elements...adsorbtion ...all elements have an electrical charge and through what is called the Van Der Walls force they are attracted/bound to the AC. The attraction keeps them there indefinitely or until extreme heat like 600*C or acids releases them and re-activates the carbon.

Help?

G

When we say acids here are we saying a compound called an acid? Or are we saying anything with a low ph? Orange Juice is an acid with a ph of 4.6 or so. And yes hell of an explanation.

[Graham]

Glad

[Graham]

Rox those 2 companies that you just mentioned I don't think were even in business when ''charcoal'' was brought into the hobby.

Carbon has been know to filter things for 100's of years. I think it really got picked up during WW2 for gas masks etc. I got my 1st aquarium in 1959 (age 7) It came with spun glass wool and bone charcoal. The charcola was about one step up from what you would put in a BBQ.

It always had to be used...not sure what it did for 10 minutes but we had to use it:)

[Roxanne]

Hi Graham:)

That's really interesting. I wonder what their explanation would be then?

:)

[Eddie]

Still waiting for the poll. :)

Their response would be secured dividends, but they are gonna admit that.

[Roxanne]

Gmornin Bassy

Why don't you start one?...(...I just sensed Brewmaster's blood pressure change...)

:D

[Apistomaster]

I stopped routine use of AC 40 years ago.
The purpose of the old bone charcoal was as ballast for the inside corner filters. Then Activated carbon was introduced and it is most useful for removing residual medications after major water changes have been made to dilute the concentrations of the meds.
There is no great value in using AC on a routine basis. Water changes are much more beneficial and cheaper than buying AC all the time.
The bottom line today is that promoting the routine use of activated carbon helps the revenue of the aquarium filter manufacturers much more than it benefits the aquarists.

[Roxanne]

I stopped routine use of AC 40 years ago.
The purpose of the old bone charcoal was as ballast for the inside corner filters. Then Activated carbon was introduced .


Hi Again Apistomaster:)

Don't mean to sound dummer than I am but what is ballast?:confused::)

Rox

[Apistomaster]

In our context here, ballast is the material added to provide the weight to hold down one of those old style inside corner filters. Could have usde marbles for all the good that old style bone carbon provided.

[mikeinco]

I haven't used Carbon in years. All of those companies making the hang on the back filters like Penquin and Emperor should start making inserts that have no carbon. I make my own now but I don't think they should just assume that everyone that buys those products wants to use the carbon.

[Don Trinko]

Hey Larry; I had one of those corner filters for a 5g sick tank( not for discus!) not to long ago. I used gravel for ballast. It didn't absorb the meds but it held the filter down nicely. Don T.

[Roxanne]

Here we go again..
I am not bringing this up to cause any fights, just for clarity.;) In the Simply Discus Library, it says "...carbon has been known to cause disease in discus.."

Could we have final thoughts from Al, whether this is the opinion of the Moderators or of the author of the article?



Roxanne

[Apistomaster]

All RO Water production units rely on on using a carbon filtration stage so I doubt very much that carbon filtration can have a harmful effect unless the wrong kind of activated carbon is used. There are many specially treated forms of activated carbon manufactured for special uses that are completely unsuitable for use in aquariums. None of the carbons made by reputable aquarium supply companies is going to harm discus.
I may not use carbon routinely but I have used it with all types and sizes of discus over the years and it has never harmed my fish.
I just happen to think that given the amount of regular large water changes most of us make in our discus tanks pretty much negates any of the general utility of routine use of aquarium safe activated carbon.

[rfeiller]

GAC (granular activated carbon) was refined for air purification that is what it does best. however, it is very beneficial in the removeal of many toxic substances from water and other liquids.

I personally use GAC in a tank that is replaced by Rayne Water Systems bi-monthly to remove chlorimines. the tap water runs through the tank and the chlorimines are removed by adsorbsion. chlorimines are best removed from water as a compound. chlorine is very unstable as a water purifier, it disapates fairly rapidily. hence, aerate (age) water overnight to remove it from tap water. so ammonia was added to chlorine to form a stable but toxic substance to keep down bacteria in public water supplies. chlorimines cannot be removed by ageing and i don't believe in using compounds to neutralize it in aquarium water, they are just more chemicals that the fish have to deal with.

if you use just a dechlor type of product you will break the bond releasing ammonia into the tank which will do the trick on your fish by burning the gills .

charcoal is not activated carbon it is very limited it's use.

the activated carbon was put in the filters by manufacturers that know most people are too lazy to do proper water changes and the water would turn color away from clear.

many of the GACs will breakdown structurally. yes they are great media for nitrifying bacteria,but only for a limited time. if you do water changes properly GAC is a waste of money and time.

GAC has several different grading criteria, iodine rating, porosity, adsorbsion quality.
spent GAC is technically hazardous materials and should be disposed of through agencies that have the capability to do this.

GAC is what is used ahead of a TFC membrane in an RO and after the membrane in a cellulous membrane, CTA, CA etc. CTA membranes being organic benefit by the chlorine. TFC membranes will fracture if exposed to chlorine.

Another feature of GAC to remember is the exposure or contact time with the substance that you are trying to adsorb, not absorb. think of it as a magnetic attraction not a sponge.

[Roxanne]

...I personally use GAC ... to remove chlorimines...
if you use just a dechlor type of product you will break the bond releasing ammonia into the tank which will do the trick on your fish by burning the gills .
...many of the GACs will breakdown structurally... great media for nitrifying bacteria,but only for a limited time. ..........
GAC has several different grading criteria, iodine rating, porosity, adsorbsion quality.......spent GAC is technically hazardous ...Another feature of GAC to remember is the exposure or contact time with the substance that you are trying to adsorb, not absorb. think of it as a magnetic attraction not a sponge.

Hi rfeiller, sorry, but I need to pick your brains...:D

I've heard this before, about using carbon to remove chloramines. There's loads in Sydney water...I'm scared of relying on carbon to remove it in case it fails, how would you know if it isn't working anymore, without having to continually test & monitor for it? And, the ammonia being released & burning the gills thing: do you mean for example, if you add dechlored water to tank without removing the released ammonia first, this is what burns their gills?

Why is it only good as media for bacteria "for a limited time"?

And, what can break the "magnetic attraction"? Would that be dependant on the type of carbon, where you refer above to them as having different properties/capabilities?

Too many questions? Sorry you don't have to answer them all obviously, but you posted alot of interesting information:)

Roxanne

[Graham]

Lets me try and answer ,,nope

[guille2007]

What you will have for sure is hole in the head disease on growing juvies if you have carbon as dechlorinator in water line even doing a 100 % daily WC, even if it is hard water tds 350,even if they show short and dark perfect feaces and even if they came from artficially raising. Adult discus seem not affected if carbon is only used in water line.

Guillermo

[Roxanne]

....I don't think we need the Haz Mat teams in white suits to change our filters;)

:D:D

Maybe he just meant we shouldn't chuck it in the BBQ like batteries or treated pine...can a bbq get that hot? And, if extreme heat can make it 'unbind' (whatever) the impurities, does that then make it 'clean' & reusable? Call it 're activated carbon'!!

Once again, Thank You Graham;)....cue the theme song...

[Graham]

G

[guille2007]

Guillermo I think that there's way too many unknowns when it comes to HITH for AC to be blamed. No question that it can absorb some minerals from the water but water with a high GH and high TDS is not going to be wiped clean by some AC ...a RO might be able to do it.....but them nothing should be raised in pure RO

G[/QUOTE]

Graham I agree that there's too many unknown but one of them is lack of minerals and carbon resin removes trace minerals, the other source is lack of vitamin D Dieter Unterrgasser says and that's light and food related.

I think that fry fed with less than 24 hours born bbs(with everything in their sac yolk) will get no affected by pure RO water mineral lacking, the problem may appear when switching to beefheart mix there could be some minerals and vitamins out there and in that case the last resort for fish is to get it from water. That's my point of view

[Graham]

G

[rfeiller]

graham, i use either 2cu ft tank or 3.6cu ft tank. the information on proper disposal of gac came from Ionics a large supplier of water purification equipment for industry.

the GAC used in the aquarium is not a large enough quantitiy to be concerned about. there are differenct substances from which activated carbon is derived a couple of them are coal based and coconut based. We could talk about whether or not they are pH neutral. or for what application that particular type of GAC was designed for.

sorry you haven't seen GAC break down, but some types will.

it is a known fact that the more alkaline the water the more toxic ammonia becomes. i would guess that not only a lot of individuals breeding discus and most hobbyist have water that is not soft and acidic. chlorimines and ammonia are a real problem.

the contact time is very important for the removal of chlorimines as a compound with GAC. you can't expect a small cannister to handle the removeal of most substancess with water going at 6gpm.

a fair amount of homework is required for setting up a proper water purification system. if a hobbyist has only a couple of aquariums home depot is a good source for a 30gpd unit. irrigardless water should always be monitored, muncipal water supplies can add chemicals or what happen to me during the course of changing out 50% of the water on over (40) 30 grow out tanks. water from a san jose, CA new on line pump house had not been neutralized properly and a couple hours after the water change i had tanks full of black water, a pH of 9.5 and over 500 dead 1" discus. i checked at the beginning of the water change but didn't monitor it during the process.

at $10 a piece wholesale that was a 5000 dollar loss. the water company claimed no responsibility.

[rfeiller]

i have a fair size KOI pond that has a contineous flow of tap water that has gone through the GAC 2 cu ft tank. it flows at about 1 gal per minute.
fry from 3 weeks on were raised in water with a tap pH of 7.2-8.0 and a hardness of 100-400ppm (it would vary that much with-in a day here in San Jose) RO was used for very young fry and breeding pairs, (during breeding cycles only). i do have a 1200gpd RO system.

[Graham]

*****

[CliffsDiscus]

What you will have for sure is hole in the head disease on growing juvies if you have carbon as dechlorinator in water line even doing a 100 % daily WC, even if it is hard water tds 350,even if they show short and dark perfect feaces and even if they came from artficially raising. Adult discus seem not affected if carbon is only used in water line.

Guillermo

Hi Guillermo,

The pin holes are not actually not hole in the head. I had this problem before using the
a different brand of GAC, but after changing to various different companies I was able
to eleminate this problem. I think Jeff Young at DiscusFarm had this problem in the pass
too.

Cliff

[guille2007]

Hi Guillermo,

The pin holes are not actually not hole in the head. I had this problem before using the
a different brand of GAC, but after changing to various different companies I was able
to eleminate this problem. I think Jeff Young at DiscusFarm had this problem in the pass
too.

Cliff

Hi Cliff,

Yes exactly that, pin holes, little isolated holes( if not hole in the head then what is it?) is what I have noticed in juvies related with GAC in water line, what brand of GAC you tested as safe?, I think the big dechlorinations water gallons capacity(20 000 gallons or so) are the ones that origin the problem but still not sure about.

Thanks so much to bring here that info.

Guillermo

[CliffsDiscus]

Hi Cliff,

Yes exactly that, pin holes, little isolated holes( if not hole in the head then what is it?) is what I have noticed in juvies related with GAC in water line, what brand of GAC you tested as safe?, I think the big dechlorinations water gallons capacity(20 000 gallons or so) are the ones that origin the problem but still not sure about.

Thanks so much to bring here that info.

Guillermo

Hi Guillermo,
Here are couple of GAC or combination of filters that works for me. They are portable
which makes it easy for me just to take it along when servicing my clients' tanks. Also
good for home hobbyist but commerically just to small to manage large amount of
tanks, also not cost effective, probably cheaper to rent from a filter company.

First photo show a setup using first the Sediment
then the Cullingan Model D20 GAC and last Kenmore
Modified Block Activated Carbon model 4234370

Second photo is also first using the Sediment
then the Kenmore(Sears) Granular Activated Carbon
model423451(hard to fine)