Hypothetical Heckel Question to ponder...

[brewmaster15]

So with all this talk of Breeding heckels and establishing a viable line of domestically tank bred pure heckels derrived from true Heckels .... I'm wondering at what point a True Heckel stops being a true Heckel in a breeding Program? At what point does human intervention and selection, even if its unintentional... actually change this species so its no longer really what it was to start out with?

Do we Just not cull anything ...live and let live? Won't it be difficult to not subconciously change and "improve" the strain...like was done to the wild Blues to make most of our current domestics. I see that as a very possible pitfall in attempting to preserve wild Symphysodon discus (heckels:)) thru a breeding program...or any wild species for that matter..

I realize I am putting the cart kilometers before the horse here... but just curious what you all think!:D


Should make for an interesting discusssion at the least.;):)

thanks,
al

[ShinShin]

One could say that a wild Heckel stops becoming wild once they are captured and put into a tank. What once was no longer is. ;) However, for the sake of discussion, let's say that a wild captured discus will be refered to as a wild discus.

When would S.discus stop becoming S.discus would probabally be when they are outcrossed with another discus species other than another S.discus.

If Heckels become a standard in Asian breeders tanks, one would expect that S.discus would take the same course as any other domesticated discus we have available today. Selective breeding would produce better quality discus than what would be found in the wild. We would also have some of the worst as well, because people would refuse to pay for the best, leaving the Heckel market in the West with low quality discus like we have now. The West wants the best, but will only pay for the least. Of course, this will only be a discussion, because as already proved in Asia, there is no market for Heckel discus that makes producing them feasable.

Mat

[brewmaster15]

Mat,

When would S.discus stop becoming S.discus would probabally be when they are outcrossed with another discus species other than another S.discus.
That makes sense but wasn't really what I was asking.... F1, F2 F3 etc...may still be S. discus Genetically on a species level...but They aren't wilds anymore....and the very act of selecting which F1s to keep and raise and breed just changed the genetic population....and what The future generations may look like.....Its all theoretical but I think its worth Considering.

I look at what was selected by the early Pioneers from wild Blue stock...and look at what we have today without any real species outcrossing... If I understand the recent genetics papers well enough...most of what we have today domestically is related largely to wild Blues...not Greens or Heckels.

I think if we are not careful it would be very easy to wind up changing in a few short generations what we call S.discus......or otherwise put it may be very hard to maintain tank bred line of heckels to keep looking like a wild Heckel!

-al

[scolley]

So with all this talk of Breeding heckels and establishing a viable line of domestically tank bred pure heckels derived from true Heckels .... I'm wondering at what point a True Heckel stops being a true Heckel in a breeding Program?Good question Al.

IMO it's just like dogs, cats, or any other domesticated species. Once you remove them from the wild and subject them to selective breeding, whether from limited mate selection or direct intervention, you now have a domesticated animal.

As domesticated as a dog that has undergone such selection for thousands of years? Certainly not. But is a domesticated dog the same as the wild dogs humans first encountered? Certainly not. So when did wild become domesticated? Where is that line drawn? It's all such a huge gray area, I don't see how it can be any other demarcation point than the 1st influenced generation.

IMO, once you influence that breeding (and many will argue influence of behavior too), you've just begun F1 of a domesticated strain of fish.

[Darren's Discus]

I think that Matt hit the nail on the head,once we take something from the wild it ceases to be wild,for no longer does it have to fight for food we change it from it's wild form by feeding it with colour enhanced food,also depending on water quality as we know when we breed discus it can produce some abnormallity's including high fins.so for instance say we bred heckle x heckle and the batch threw some high fin specimens i'm sure most (i know i would) would try to get a pair from these young,which would then be changing the origonal form.but once again at what stage does a wild cease to be wild ? when we (humans) remove it from its natural enviroment.imo


cheers

[Ed13]

A wild discus can only be called so as long as it swam in the wild Amazonian waters. So, by F1 they can no longer be called wild, maybe "wild type" or something else.
Obviously, nature does it's own culling process, so do we, except we based it on totally diferent characteristics. You could even say that the very fact of captivity takes care of weak individuals or those not capable of surviving the elements present on our tanks like diets, water chemistry, tank mates, pathogens, etc. The very moment they are captured they are no longer "the same"

Good question Al.

IMO it's just like dogs, cats, or any other domesticated species. Once you remove them from the wild and subject them to selective breeding, whether from limited mate selection or direct intervention, you now have a domesticated animal.

As domesticated as a dog that has undergone such selection for thousands of years? Certainly not. But is a domesticated dog the same as the wild dogs humans first encountered? Certainly not. So when did wild become domesticated? Where is that line drawn? It's all such a huge gray area, I don't see how it can be any other demarcation point than the 1st influenced generation.

IMO, once you influence that breeding (and many will argue influence of behavior too), you've just begun F1 of a domesticated strain of fish.
Interesting comparison Steve. Dogs share 99% of their genes. Selective breeding only manipulated a single strain of the DNA for the most part. They still share lots of characteristics genetically and beleive or not behavior (domestic dogs just altered their instictual behavior to their new lifestyle, but it's there and they can revert back to wild dogs, just not wolves;)). When you think about it, like Al mentioned for the most part, domestic discus came from Blue discus, similar from wolves to dogs. Establishing a line of Heckel discus could bring a renaissance for discus keeping, who knows what mutations or color morphs can heckel as well a other species of discus not in the hobby yet can bring!

[ShinShin]

Wouldn't the genotype be the same no matter what F number we get to? DNA from wild caught S.discus ought to be the same as an F50 S.discus, right? Only the phenotype would change from selective breeding. It would be possible that through selective breeding and any mutations that may occur, we could have pure bred Heckel Bulldogs, as well as Snow White Heckels, as well as barless Heckels (depending on what mutations arise). I see the possibilities for the Heckel to be exactly the same as the brow/blue or green discus would have to exist.

Mat

[brewmaster15]

Hi Mat,
Genetics isn't my best subject...
wouldn't the genotype be the same no matter what F number we get to? DNA from wild caught S.discus ought to be the same as an F50 S.discus, right? Not really sure there...but I think that The "Alleles" and the effects of "Genetic Drift" would change things significantly depending on what we selectively bred....(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_drift).. I can see this being a bigger issue in our small population than in the large wild populations....



then again who knows...:)


-al

[ashaysathe]

Hypothesis assumption is mutations are not part of discussion:

In my opinion, in all scenario's a "pure 100% Heckel" bred with another "100% pure Heckel", whether it be in its natural habitat or domestic captivity, will remain to be a Heckel. My argument here is Heckel is its genetics not the environment or the habitat.
Arguably, on the flip side say a 100% pure Heckel if cross bred in "wild" with any non-heckel, F1 will not be a 100% Heckel, true?

Extending on Steve analogy, if zoo's breed panda's or polar bears, their respective F1 are still panda's and polar bears - whether wild or not should not impact its genetics.

Now, the point remains deviations happening in their "lifestyles" for being in captivity - e.g. polar bear in Bronx zoo would not be deprived of food as much as it would be in the arctic. Would this "less struggle for food (taken as an e.g. here)" make in changes in its F<<n's>> with respective to its "natural instincts" say its F<n's> might not know hunting. But they still remain polar bears.
Can these changes in lifestyle due to captivity be strong enough to make modifications to its genetics?

[Ed13]

Extending on Steve analogy, if zoo's breed panda's or polar bears, their respective F1 are still panda's and polar bears - whether wild or not should not impact its genetics.
But the resulting offspring would not be able to survive in the wild as they would lack learned knowledged from experience. In it's placed there would be new behavioral adaptations, learned through their contact with their new surroundings and humans. Meaning, they would not be wild bears;)

[brewmaster15]

Okay...I guess I wasn't clear enough in my question.:( For a minute forget the hang up on whether its S.Heckel genetically.. or technically...

Simplified explanation...In the beginning ....there was a wild Blue/Brown discus...It was a beautiful creature with a unique character... it was a wild that by today's domestic standards needed improvement...so it was "improved", even though back then...we didn't know that it needed improvement and much of what was done was probably chance.... It was manipulated and selectively bred to look like something it was not originally designed by nature to be.....today it is a Blue diamond, a red Turq, a leopard, an albino, a mellon, a Pb,, a cobalt, a snakeskin, a san merah, a rose red, a millenium gold, an altum Flora, a bulldog....anything but what it started out as.

In the beginning .... There was a wild Heckel...It was a beautiful creature...with character...It was a wild that by today's domestic standards....

The challenge in Breeding our Tank raised Heckels may turn out to be not the act of breeding them... but to Not "improve" them as we did our current domestic wild blue /brown derived discus :)

hth,
al

[Vern Archer]

Greetings I am a newbie to the site but have been around awhile in the hobby, I find this an interesting discussion and if I may inject my two cents. Line breeding Heckles would be a significant achievement and I believe the purpose would be to domesticate them so they would become more common in the hobby and easier to breed. It would be up to the breeder through the selection process to maintian coloration and original characteristics. In the case of wild blue and greens and even the browns its the crossing between these sub species that provided the dramatic colour variations that we see today. v

[Ed13]

Okay...I guess I wasn't clear enough in my question.:( For a minute forget the hang up on whether its S.Heckel genetically.. or technically...

Simplified explanation...In the beginning ....there was a wild Blue/Brown discus...It was a beautiful creature with a unique character... it was a wild that by today's domestic standards needed improvement...so it was "improved", even though back then...we didn't know that it needed improvement and much of what was done was probably chance.... It was manipulated and selectively bred to look like something it was not originally designed by nature to be.....today it is a Blue diamond, a red Turq, a leopard, an albino, a mellon, a Pb,, a cobalt, a snakeskin, a san merah, a rose red, a millenium gold, an altum Flora, a bulldog....anything but what it started out as.

In the beginning .... There was a wild Heckel...It was a beautiful creature...with character...It was a wild that by today's domestic standards....

The challenge in Breeding our Tank raised Heckels may turn out to be not the act of breeding them... but to Not "improve" them as we did our current domestic wild blue /brown derived discus :)

hth,
al
Now I see you r point Al, but it's not a challenge to not "improve" on them, it's down right impossible. As soon as new traits start to appear someone somewhere will manipulate it leaving behind what was. Like the original wild blue/brown of which no lineage exist from the originals only the derivates.

Tank raised amphirion perculas and ocellaris on the saltwater side may face this in the future with all the var. developed by selective breeding etc, only the "cute" factor might save the wild type.

[Eddie]

Greetings I am a newbie to the site but have been around awhile in the hobby, I find this an interesting discussion and if I may inject my two cents. Line breeding Heckles would be a significant achievement and I believe the purpose would be to domesticate them so they would become more common in the hobby and easier to breed. It would be up to the breeder through the selection process to maintian coloration and original characteristics. In the case of wild blue and greens and even the browns its the crossing between these sub species that provided the dramatic colour variations that we see today. v

Hiya V and welcome to simply, the best place some great info and meet many great people.

I agree with your statement about, would be nice to perfect the species. Heckels seem to have a higher body. I'm wondering if the high body type came crossing with heckels. :o

[Vern Archer]

The High body and Hi Fin that I worked with years and years ago came from Jack Wattley and I believe they were derived from the selection process of generations of wild blues and when you crossed his Hi Body Hifin with a domestic Green you end up with what you call a blue Diamond today. Its been my experience, you get variations in body shape hi body and hifin with every spawn its through the selection process that you carry the desirable shape in subsequent generations. Years ago everyone was trying to get to the solid blue fish, then everyone was trying to get an all red fish, it was the flavour of the month ($$ greed) its this temptation that took us away from true line breeding and keeping the original wild fish in its true colour form. And now everyone wants wild because good quality specimens are becoming very rare. Pursuing the Heckle is sort of the last frontier with Discus I think:)

[rfeiller]

genetically with the exception of mutations/sports which are dominate they would be heckels. but the heckels in the wild out cross with browns and blues.

the delima that faces those that want to "preserve" a species from extinction; all of the parameters in the wild that maintain the species as a heckel are impossible to duplicate in captivity. anyone that does line breeding works at least 3 seperate strains of "identical" discus to outcross to each other this maintains the vigor of fish.

in captivity it would be impossible to maintain all of the progeny even through the F2 generation. then comes the culling. as soon as you cull you've stepped outside of the boundries and the F3 fish are no longer the equivelent of their wild cousins.

on the up side it has been found with the grey whales, cheetahs etc that all of the make up of all their species variants is maintained in their genetic make-up

and you are right the heckel has been bred in captivity and has no commercial market.

[Eddie]

Hey Vern,

I have a few fish that have super high fins and they were Heckel crosses so maybe the cross was Heckel/Blue Diamond. The few I have are completely different from each other but carry the heavy thick 5th bar. ;)

[Göran Ekholm]

i believe that we are doing selected breading i the tank no matter what. The environment will make the selection, and we will not breed on the same terms as in the nature! The fish in f1 that is the biggest in the tank, had by no chance being the biggest in the wild. So we will breed on thous how have the best "tank gens" and the whans whit the best "wild gens" will go under. So by not doing anything, we will do a selektiv breeding. That's me believes.

[Apistomaster]

Assuming we establish a few lines of Heckels from wild fish, they will represent a "bottlenecK" in the genetic diversity and can only be considered aquarium strain Heckels. They necessarily cannot represent the genetic diversity found within wild caught populations of Heckels.
I am not making any value judgment as to which is the superior fish but I would still consider them Heckels. It would seem to me that it follows that the aquarium strains would be easier to breed in captivity than their wild cousins but artificially introduced selective pressures come into effect as soon as a brood from wild parents are produced. Those which survive to maturity are the one's best suited to aquarium care and it will be the those that will be used to breed successive generations.

As an aside, one of the reasons why Discus have been so difficult to pin down as to different species is that they are a fish still very much undergoing speciation.

[ashaysathe]

Okay...I guess I wasn't clear enough in my question.:( For a minute forget the hang up on whether its S.Heckel genetically.. or technically...

Simplified explanation...In the beginning ....there was a wild Blue/Brown discus...It was a beautiful creature with a unique character... it was a wild that by today's domestic standards needed improvement...so it was "improved", even though back then...we didn't know that it needed improvement and much of what was done was probably chance.... It was manipulated and selectively bred to look like something it was not originally designed by nature to be.....today it is a Blue diamond, a red Turq, a leopard, an albino, a mellon, a Pb,, a cobalt, a snakeskin, a san merah, a rose red, a millenium gold, an altum Flora, a bulldog....anything but what it started out as.

In the beginning .... There was a wild Heckel...It was a beautiful creature...with character...It was a wild that by today's domestic standards....

The challenge in Breeding our Tank raised Heckels may turn out to be not the act of breeding them... but to Not "improve" them as we did our current domestic wild blue /brown derived discus :)

hth,
al


Let me make sure I understand, you saying that we bred wild blues/browns and the variations we got from there are so far remote from the "original" that these have no or very little resemblence to its origin aka wild blues/browns.
On the same lines, by breeding Heckles can we be in the same boat where we have heckel family tree with its lowest level offspring have no or very little resemblance to its origin?
If this is true then i guess its possible. Because imagine a blue diamond with a think central bar like a heckel - if that ever happens that might (hypothetically) get sold for a ton of money far more than a heckel and more than a blue diamond too.
Again if someone somwhere can make that happen with not too much of investment and significant return on investment (ROI) we will see that happen.

Its no different than computers heavily being used for playing games. The invention is not intended for the purpose, but people use it for games.
I don't but there is a huge market around.

Same way there will be hobbyist who would preserve pure heckel and at the same time there will be a group that run behind (a hypothetical strain) blue diamond with the think central bar - distinct Heckel feature.
It remains to be seen on what "accidental discovery" one makes and variations heckel gene can go thru to make it "marketable / market apealing".
Would they still be Heckels - I would say yes (regardless what strain maker calls them). How much close to the origin - depends on what level is the achivement. It could very well be possible that some aquarium blue diamonds if were let go in wild, (would be terrible) some day we may have a blue diamond with central bar available in nature.

[rfeiller]

there have been many, many heckel x blue/royal blue crosses. those with a dominate 5th bar where historically culled out, because it has not been a desired trait. the crosses were made to obtain full body striations. there were so few true wild royal blues and those did not breed true, that they had to be outcrossed to obtain the color and full striations. also no one wanted the first and last vertical bars to be always visible and dark so those also were eventially bred out. it took many generations to eliminate these dominate traits.

[Vern Archer]

39239 check these out I am not sure of the history the fish are not mine but a friend Bob Wilson I will try and get more info..but an obvious Heckle X v

[wgtaylor]

Hi Vern, those heckel cross look very much like Tony Griffitts heckel/cobalt cross. He sold many to wholesalers in California, USA. Possible that is where these came from. Check out this web page, the cross make a nice looking turquoise discus for sure. Bill

[Vern Archer]

I am meeting with Bob Wilson next week to try and get more information from him on this and other picture of his I posted..but I agree I think they are very attractive fish. v

[Vern Archer]

Bill did you say you had Tony Griffitts website?
v

[wgtaylor]

Bill did you say you had Tony Griffitts website?
v

Vern, I'm absent minded I guess:o, meant to paste this link in last post. Not Tony's web site but a link to an article in Aquaworld about Tony's heckel/cobalt cross. Bill
http://www.aquaworldaquarium.com/Articles/TonyGriffitts/Crossing_a_Wild_Heckel_with_a_Cobalt_Blue_Discus.h tm

[Vern Archer]

No problem Bill thx v

[Vern Archer]

Excellent article so all we need is a young male Heckel, that may be difficult I will show Bob W and see what he says they could be from the same guy thx again v

[Apistomaster]

That aquaworld article is an interesting read.
I have only bred wild discus which I received as large adults so I know that isn't much of an obstacle. Also many of the other reported Heckel X other involved already adult Heckels but one thing everyone has had in common is that the Heckel participant in the pairs has been a male. We seem to have inducing a female wild Heckel to come into spawning condition, as the central issue to breeding them in the first place. Males are not the problem.
Until we have established an aquarium strain of Heckels identical to their wild parents in every other way, we are far from taking them into new developments as sports arise with features found to be desirable enough to advance down wherever that path may lead.

One book, Aqualaog SA Cichlids I, Discus and Angelfish, is the only one I have seen many photos of what are presented as F1 Heckel X Heckel. All the shown "F1's have aberrations from the classic Heckel pattern. I think the fish shown in Aqualog SA Cichlids I are Heckel crosses and they look very much like the photos of hybrids shown in the aquaworld article.

The one photo posted showing 2 fish appears to me to show a wild Heckel and a Heckel hybrid.

How can the archetypal Heckel pattern be lost in the first generation of the tank raised fish?
That is what the Aqualog SA Cichlids I book shows. Yet how much more uniform, on average, can any wild discus be but the Heckel?
I believe the aquaworld account easily but I don't buy the results Aqualog SA Cichlids I, shows as F1 Heckels" are from a pure pair. They do show what appears to be pure pair of Heckels spawning then later brooding fry. I have always doubted the rest of their presentation of the pair's progeny. They presented it as though the Heckel traits were not transferred fully to their F1 young in captivity.

It is so hard to develop new tank raised varieties based solely on fish of Heckel lineage.
It takes time for new desirable traits to arise and be further advanced by selective breeding. When you begin with a fish like Heckels, where there are not even years of continued breeding a line that still appears no different than wild caught, you would be having to undertake a project that could span decades before anything really different and attractive arises. While also still being able to assure that no short cuts involving the use of other wild discus species or any tank raised form were used. It stands to reason that as soon as some aquarium strain of Heckel is established and retains the standard and attractive Heckel pattern, then we would be free to begin introducing the best or very rare, but attractive wild Heckel variants could be used to help form some new and differently colored strains of aquarium bred Heckels a bit sooner.