methods of removing chlorine from tap water

[Patr1ck]

Hello Everybody,
How many people out there use strong aeration in their aging barrel to remove chlorine from their tap water? If so how long do you aerate? Id rather do that than have to add chemicals to the water.
Thanks,

P

[dishpanhands]

I use a carbon canister filter to remove chlorine.

The start up cost is the worst part. after that carbon filters are cheep. its the pre filters from an RO unit.

[al210]

I use Prime.

[William Palumbo]

I use Prime AND a carbon filtration unit(Kold-Steril by poly bio marine) as Dishpanhands said it is a bit $$$ initially, but fairly cheap to maintain. Call me paranoid, but I like to use both, tho can get away with either one if need be...Bill

[kenhappen2u]

i dont think its as easy of a question to answer as presented ..... some people/townships /city have chlorine and some have Cloramine , and other heavy metals & some have well water so you almost need to know what your trying to remove , Chlorine can be removed by aging and strong aeration where as the Cloramine's take much longer and harder to remove from your water , this is why i use "Prime " and dont have to worrie at all .

experts Correct me if i a wrong or if i have this backwords .


Ken

[rfeiller]

the best method IMO is to contact Rayne, Ionics or one of the water conditioning companies (if you have several tanks or even one large tank) and rent a GAC canister from them, they will change them out according to your needs and the cost is a heck of a lot cheaper then pet shop chems.

chlorimines will adsorb (like a magnetic attachment to the GAC, it does not absorb) connect it to a hot and cold hose bibs or faucet preset the temp and presto a lot of toxins are removed without adding more junk to your water. run from the GAC tank to your RO or whatever you need. pipe it to your kitchen.

[architect1]

I use prime but how much do people use on a 50g of changed water. i use one cap but still had some problems not to long ago so i do 2 caps.

[Rod]

I use a commercial type pressurized carbon filter to remove contaminants from the tapwater and then aerate for 24 hours in large vats. I quite often have nitrites in my tapwater and i remove these with clorine. The water is tested after the fill, most days it contains between .25 and .5ppm nitrite so a teeny bit of clorine will remove it instantly, and any traces of clorine will be gone after the 24 hour aeration period.
If your water contains clorine only, then instead of using prime or other expensive mixes you could try sodium thiosulphate crystals. They are sold comparitively cheaply at pool shops, for people who overdose the pool with clorine....they are easily dissolved into water and you can make your own highly effective clorine remover.

Rod:)

[Autumn Wind]

I don't age and use straight from tap with Prime.

[Peachtree Discus]

sodium thiosulphate crystals

[Diskees]

Chlorine can be illiminated by airation , chloramine however is a combination of Chlorine and ammonia . To get rid of the chlorine , airate ( step one ) , and to get rid of the ammonia use a good working biological filter . After conditioning the water this way you are OK as far as discus go . Diskees

[MostlyDiscus]

I run a mag drive 1800 on two mated 210 gallon drums. The water is combo of RO and tap. The RO speaks for itself(GE merlin 700 galper day). The tap is run through 2 carbon and 1 5 micro sed 20 inch housings. I use prime and other ingredients added to central as water is changed. Ed

[rick.c]

I use carbo filter and use prime to nutrafie the amonia , They some time use cloramine in the city water and some times they dont .I use the prime to make sure

[Diskees]

As I mentioned before , discus do not like changes in water condition . If it can be done , do it the natural way . Everytime you use chemicals ( and prime is a chemical ) you will upset the discus in your tank . You may get rid of the ammonia , chlorine and chloramines but your discus will be pretty unhappy . Just my idea Diskees

[Graham]

As I mentioned before , discus do not like changes in water condition . If it can be done , do it the natural way . Everytime you use chemicals ( and prime is a chemical ) you will upset the discus in your tank . You may get rid of the ammonia , chlorine and chloramines but your discus will be pretty unhappy . Just my idea Diskees

And how do you purpose to get rid of ammonia in make up water....

[Diskees]

If you have ammonia in your tap water there is something wrong with your waterdepartment . But if for one or another reason you may find ammonia in your make-up water , run it over a good airated biological filter before using it . ( for the same reason if you find chloramines in your water you can get rid of the chlorine by airation while you can get rid of the ammonia by biological filtration . Chloramine is a combination of chlorine and ammonia ) Regards Diskees

[Graham]

Sorry that doesn't work...1st off chloramine is a very stable chem and aeration will not break the chlorine/ammonia bond. It takes weeks to chloramines to break down. So is the hobbyist to have 100's of gallons of water on hand being aerated?

Next..........The idea of doing a water change is to lower NO3 not add water back that has a level due to having gone through a bio-convertor. Again not very practical what so ever

While I don't think hobbyists should be chasing ideal numbers with chems, there is absolutely nothing wrong with using sodium thiosulfate or another one of the decent de-chlor products on the market.

G

[Diskees]

Maybe not practical but I raised quite a few discus this way . If you start with a good tank raised discus ( or discus that have been raised indoors and not in outdoor fishponds ) I must say that discus in general are very hardy fish . Never lost any of mine . But for old age ofcourse . Diskees

[Diskees]

By the way if you want to see some of my discus , Google Diskees ( freeservers ) . The E-Mail number is no good no more ! Diskees

[Graham]

Not sure what raising fish has to do with de-chlorinating water...but all water needs to have the chlorine or chloramine neutralized in an appropiate way before it's used on any fish.

G

[Roxanne]

Sorry that doesn't work...1st off chloramine is a very stable chem and aeration will not break the chlorine/ammonia bond. G

Diskees, If I did what you said my fish would be dead!! I live in Sydney & there is chlorine in our water. I've been through all this and Graham has helped me through it actually. I can't tell you what Grahams exact qualifications are but he is the Water Guru here on Simply;)..Aeration does nothing if you don't break the bond first. I tried it: after 7 days aerating in a bucket and the ammonia was still there until I added a dechlorinator and the ammonia dissipated...took sooo long though..Chlorine is in Sydney dam water to make it safe for consumption. It bonds to the ammonia and you get chloramine right? I can tell you 1. aeration does NOTHING to move it, I've tried and 2. If you added it to a biological filter without FIRST neutralizing the chloramine, it will kill your bio filter. Maybe you just don't have loads of crap in your water like some of us folk which is good for you;)...but if I ran Sydney water through a bio filter without breaking the chloramine bond first, I wouldn't have a bio filter for very long..:(

To answer the threads question...I use a normal dechlorinator, it also removes heavy metals..nothing else..

Roxanne

[Diskees]

Roxanne . I am a little confused . Do you have chlorine in your water or chloramine ? Chlorine will be gone in one day of aeration . Ammonia will be taken out by a good bioligical filtration ( dry filtration ) . So where is the chloramine commig from ? If there is no more chlorine in your water and the filtration has taken the ammonia out what is there to bond ? Chloramine is hard to get rid of . You may try raising the temperature ( in a holding barrel ) and use UV lighting , or you may try a charcoal filter in combination wuth granulated charcoal and have a very low flow rate through these filters . It will still take a few days to get rid of the chloramines . One advise I can give you after all the discus I raised , and that is the less you put in your water the better it is . If your water is too hard ( at spawning time ) the outer shell of the eggs will harden and the discus can not break out of the eggs . You will see the start of the embryo but it will never hatch . You will see the parents try to help the young ones but they have no success . It looks like they are eating the eggs , but in reality thet are just helping . I built a gadget to overcome this trouble without having to change the whole tank to soft water . Regards Diskees

[Roxanne]

... Do you have chlorine in your water or chloramine ? Chlorine will be gone in one day of aeration . Ammonia will be taken out by a good bioligical filtration ( dry filtration ) . So where is the chloramine commig from ? If there is no more chlorine in your water and the filtration has taken the ammonia out what is there to bond ? Chloramine is hard to get rid of .

We got Both because there's ammonia In Sydney dam water, they add Chlorine. But, when the chlorine becomes bonded to the ammonia, it becomes chloramine. I don't know how someone can have ammonia and chlorine but no chloramine:confused: Because the ammonia is "locked up" by the chlorine, aeration won't get rid of the ammonia, (I've tried it to 10 days undechlored aeration with 0 movement in readings) until I neutralize or "unlock" the chloramine bond so the filter can process the little bit of ammonia left over.....straight out the tap mine is at .25ppm and the same after 10 days undechlored with aeration. I still can't add it to a tank without a dechlor...but going to try the sulphate next...

Rox

[Wahter]

Diskees - where I live in the USA, the local water company adds chloramines into the tap water. Aeration by itself won't break the bond of Ammonia and Chlorine (at least not quickly) and I have to use a chemical (such as Prime) to make the water safe for my fish. I do age the water for several hours (usually overnight) just so things balance out for water changes (the water company also states that they use ferric sulfate and ozone in the disinfection of the city's tap water).



Walter

[Roxanne]

Diskees - where I live in the USA, the local water company adds chloramines into the tap water...the water company also states that they use ferric sulfate and ozone in the disinfection of the city's tap water).

Walter

:confused:They add chlorine and it bonds to ammonia, producing a chloramine bond. Why/How would they put 'chloramine' into the water? To me, the chloramine bond is a state, not a chemical you add. Why would you add a 'chemical' that is a combination of ammonia and chlorine?

Graham help I'm drowning....:)

Rox

[Patr1ck]

Here is an informative article on the formation of chloramine. It doesnt appear to be as simple as to just add chlorine and ammonia to water to produce chloramine, ph is involved.
http://www.tawwa.org/TW07Proceedings/070412a/WaterTreatment/The%20Ties%20That%20Bind.pdf

Also, I had some questions about this so I e-mailed my water company.
Start at the bottom and read up. The way I understand it is, hypochlorite(the form of chlorine that my water company uses) is not the chlorine ion that reacts with NH3 to form chloramine and so regardless of the ph chloramines would not be formed in the water. Also, I would aspect that if chloramines did form in the water, Tara would have said something about it since the whole point of my e-mail was to find out if chloramines were in the water. Also, our tap water here is very hard and on the alkaline side.

Hope all this helps.:D
P

Subject: RE: Water quality FAQ Inquiry
Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2008 16:44:38 -0700
From:
To:


You are very welcome.
Have a nice weekend!
Tara
------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Patrick
Sent: Friday, December 05, 2008 10:05 AM
To:
Subject: RE: Water quality FAQ Inquiry


Awesome! Thank you so much, Tara.

Patrick
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Subject: RE: Water quality FAQ Inquiry
Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2008 07:43:44 -0700
From:
To:

Hi Patrick
I'm glad we could help and yes if Tempe did start using chloramines the public would be notified.
Thanks
Tara
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From:
Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2008 11:48 PM
To:
Subject: RE: Water quality FAQ Inquiry

Tara
Thank you for all the useful information and for taking the time to respond to my questions. One more, If Tempe ever decided to use chloramines, would they let their customers know in their water bill?

Patrick
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Subject: RE: Water quality FAQ Inquiry
Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2008 11:52:40 -0700
From:
To



Patrick
Tempe has discussed the use of chloramines for treatment, but we don't feel this is best for Tempe at this time. We are very happy with the sodium hypochlorite and UV for disinfection we are currently using. Also we do not need to up the chlorine dose with heavy rains. We are consistent with chlorine dosage.
Thanks
Tara
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Patrick
Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2008 11:48 AM
To:
Subject: RE: Water quality FAQ Inquiry


Thank you Tara,

Has there ever been any talks of using chloramine? Also, does the amount of chlorine added increase when there are heavy rains or for any other reasons. The reason that I ask is that I have a fish tank and if there arent any chloramines than that makes things alot easier and cheaper for me. Thank you very much.

Patrick
----------------------------------------------------------------------
> Subject: RE: Water quality FAQ Inquiry
> Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2008 11:38:21 -0700
> From:
> To:
> CC:
>
>
>
> Hi Patrick
>
> My name is Tara and I am the supervisor of the water quality
> laboratory. Tempe does not treat the water with chloramines or any
> chloramine containing compounds. Please let me know if there is
> anything else we can assist you with. I hope this information is
> helpful.
>
> Thanks
>
> Tara
> Laboratory Supervisor
> City of Tempe
> Water Utilities Dept./Env Division
>
************************************************** ******** *******
> Name: Patrick
> Phone:
> Address:
> email:
>
> Question:
>
> Does our water here in Tempe ever get treated with chloramines or
> contain any chloramine in it?
> Thanks,
> Patrick

[Wahter]

Here is an informative article on the formation of chloramine. It doesnt appear to be as simple as to just add chlorine and ammonia to water to produce chloramine, ph is involved.
http://www.tawwa.org/TW07Proceedings/070412a/WaterTreatment/The%20Ties%20That%20Bind.pdf

Also, I had some questions about this so I e-mailed my water company.
Start at the bottom and read up. The way I understand it is, hypochlorite(the form of chlorine that my water company uses) is not the chlorine ion that reacts with NH3 to form chloramine and so regardless of the ph chloramines would not be formed in the water.

Sodium hypochlorite = bleach.

:)



Walter

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sodium_hypochlorite

[Wahter]

:confused:They add chlorine and it bonds to ammonia, producing a chloramine bond. Why/How would they put 'chloramine' into the water? To me, the chloramine bond is a state, not a chemical you add. Why would you add a 'chemical' that is a combination of ammonia and chlorine?

Graham help I'm drowning....:)

Rox

Rox - here's an interesting article about chloramine on wikipedia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chloramine



Walter

[Eddie]

I'm not sure if there is Chloramine in my water but there is definitely isn't any chlorine registering on the test strips. Shouldn't there be a something showing up since Chloramine is Chlorine and ammonia bound?

Thanks
Eddie

[Roxanne]

Hi Walter, how you doin?

This is from a link off wiki
..."Most commercial dechlorinators are based on plain sodium thiosulfate, Na2S2O3, a crystalline salt that generally comes pre-mixed with distilled water, usually in a 1% solution. At this strength, 10 drops (that's 0.5 cubic mm) will neutralize common municipal levels of chlorine in 10 gallons, turning the chlorine to harmless chloride ions and adding some molecules of sodium and sulfur to the water. Unreacted sodium thiosulfate that may be left over is pretty inert and harmless."

And below from another wiki site link called The skeptical aquarist


"Chlorine is an oxidizer, which burns a fishes' gills. Chloramines, on the other hand, pass across the gills of a fish and into its blood, where the molecule attaches to the hemoglobin, acting like nitrite to induce methemoglobinemia. The toxicity of chloramines is affected by pH, I'm reading at www.fishdoc.co.uk, with Chloramine-T more toxic at lower pH. Fish stricken by chloramine poisoning are sluggish and respire heavily. But chloramines have been inflated into a bugaboo by some packagers/distributors of various water "conditioners." Aquarium Pharmaceuticals, for instance, characterizes chloramine as "deadly" in corporate literature. Nevertheless, the not-invariably-"deadly" Chloramine-T is currently being studied by the U.S. government as potentially important to fish hatcheries in controlling bacterial gill disease. Studies at UC Davis have inspired widespread use of Chloramine-T to kill pathogenic bacteria and parasites in koi ponds. A professional assessment I trust is this from John P. Grazek: "The addition of sodium thiosulfate will neutralize both chlorine and chloramine. However, ammonia is released when the sodium thiosulfate combines with the chloramines, and this could be a problem to fish where there is little or no biological filtration." (in Aquariology: Fish Diseases and Water Chemistry, Tetra Press 1992). In chloramine, two chloride ions are bound to each ammonia molecule, and that's why you're usually advised to double the quantity of sodium thiosulfate you'd use for chlorine alone. In acidic water, the ammonia released would largely be ionized to its non-toxic form, ammonium. In a planted aquarium NH3/NH4 would be rapidly scavenged by the plants.

Testing for chloramines. If you're testing for chloramines, make sure the test kit you've borrowed is testing for "total chlorine" or "combined chlorine," not for "free chlorine." A test for "free chlorine" would misleadingly read zero in chloraminated water.

On the other hand, when your tapwater tests positive for ammonia, this is a sign that your water is being treated with chloramines.

The Washington DC water utility offers a document "How the conversion to Chloramines affects your fish" generated by the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers, which injects a note of sobriety into this sometimes panic-inducing situation. Being a public agency, the Washington Aqueduct couldn't recommend any commercial brand, but in general they recommended four general methods for neutralizing chloramines: 1. activated carbon in filtration, 2. sodium thiosulfate, 3. commerically-available de-chloramination products ("some simply remove the chlorine, while others 'lock up' or detoxify remaining ammonia"), or 4. a chemical agent plus a biological agent ("bio-filter") to remove the ammonia. (You should already have known all this, eh?)

If you're depending on 1. filtration with granular activated carbon to break the chloramine bond, make sure the carbon is fresh and the filtration is slow. Since some ammonia is likely to be freed, one way or the other, you have an additional incentive to de-chloraminate before you add water to the aquarium.

[Roxanne]

I'm not sure if there is Chloramine in my water but there is definitely isn't any chlorine registering on the test strips. Shouldn't there be a something showing up since Chloramine is Chlorine and ammonia bound?

Thanks
Eddie

They might not use chlorine in yours Eddie. Can you find out what's in your water from the supply source? Also, I will be corrected if I am wrong, I think they are all using different things to disinfect the drinking water supply. Pat says there's bleach in his water!

Rox:)

[TankWatcher]

All very technical. To save the worry, I add Prime. Like Rox, I live in Sydney and so would not risk going without. I do age my water & Aerate it. I guess the Aeration is more to prevent stagnation while it's stored?

Hi Pat. As Sodium hypochlorite = bleach, I'd definitely be doing something about that before it went in the tank.

[Patr1ck]

Hi Pat. As Sodium hypochlorite = bleach, I'd definitely be doing something about that before it went in the tank.


Oh yes, absolutely!:D

P

[Roxanne]

Hi Pat:) Just curious, how do you get rid of the bleach from your water?:confused:

Rox

[TankWatcher]

Prime does the job, Rox. I use Purigen from time to time. The way to regenerate purigen is to subject it to a diluted bleach bath. Then you have to make it safe by using Prime. I think that the Prime is at a stronger rate than for adding to your wc, but I can't recall exactly (at work now, so can't check the package).

I also gave my plants a diluted bleach treatment once. Again, Prime (or any water dechlorinator) was the detoxifer at the end of the bleach treatment.

[Patr1ck]

Hi Pat:) Just curious, how do you get rid of the bleach from your water?:confused:

Rox

Hi Roxanne, I'v been using reconstituted Ro water. I've read a few threads about using tap to mix with the RO to add minerals back. I was thinking about doing that, it seems like the composition of tap water would have a more natural balance than reconstituted RO would have. Ive seen some really beautiful discus is tap water tanks. However, before I got into discus, I used Novaqua, Amquel and Stress Coat at different times. All gave good results. I noticed also that when I use the python, in suck mode, when I return to the sink room I can smell the chlorine in the air. Im not sure if sodium hypochlorite is bleach itself or if it is a component of bleach. My household bleach bottle says "sodium hypochlorite 3%":confused:. The room doesnt smell like bleach it smells like pool tablets.:confused:

P

[Eddie]

They might not use chlorine in yours Eddie. Can you find out what's in your water from the supply source? Also, I will be corrected if I am wrong, I think they are all using different things to disinfect the drinking water supply. Pat says there's bleach in his water!

Hey Rox,

I asked the housing agency if they could contact the water supply and find out why I do not have Chlorine showing up on the test kits. I also asked if I should use any chemicals to fill my fish tanks. She said that the agency recommended that I use something to treat the water before filling the tanks. I am confused since the water has a very strong smell, not chlorine though. I tried to do some esearch online about how water is treated in my area of the island. I read something about ozonization or somehting like that. :confused: Anyways, I just use prime and my fish seem fine. They always cruise around the water as it fills the tank. I used to treat the water in storage tanks but I found that doing daily 50% WCs keeps my PH constant. Even if I skip 2 days, the PH is still stable so I just use tap straight with Prime.

Thanks
Eddie

[Roxanne]

Pat:), I know zip about Ro water:alien:, except for what I have read, but I do know that I don't know why anyone bothers with it, especially if you have to replace the minerals found in the tap/whatever water ANYWAY...

Robyn, Gday mate, I got a purigen "pillow" a few months back, and I freaked when I read it's rejuvenated with bleach, go figure!! I don't think it has made any difference to the 1 tank I have it in...that's just me:p.. Admit it, You're like me and you just like buying CRAP for the fish!!!:D

Hey Eddie, Graham found us Sydney siders a link to our supplier's website which lists the composition of the supply. You must have something similar? Come on, Japan? :confused: What if you had asked instead WHAT is in the water supply they might give you a link;)....did you ask in Japanese?:p...this is weird funny, but many moons ago I was told that if you can smell the pool chlorine, there isn't enough in it..and Pat's fishroom smells like a swimming pool:p...work that into the equation.:p:p...Oh Grah am

[Patr1ck]

Admit it, You're like me and you just like buying CRAP for the fish!!!:D

Thats funny, me too, its a problem sometimes.:o

Roxanne, I started with ro water because the lfs kept all their plants, discus and plecos in it. They recommended it. Also I have a planted tank and our water here is really hard. tds 670 ppm, GH 16 degrees, KH 14 degrees. I read that in hard water the plants cant absorb the nutrients as well. I am planning on trying some wilds. Also, maybe if I could get my discus to breed that would be a cool experience too.
I guess the idea was to remove all the particles of the water good and bad and start over with pure water. I was under the impression that discus needed soft acidic water to thrive, but since Ive joined this forum I've learned otherwise.:D

P

[TankWatcher]

Admit it, You're like me and you just like buying CRAP for the fish!!!:D :p:D:p

[Wahter]

Pat:), I know zip about Ro water:alien:, except for what I have read, but I do know that I don't know why anyone bothers with it, especially if you have to replace the minerals found in the tap/whatever water ANYWAY...

Roxanne,

What if people lived in a place where the water was very hard and they wanted to keep or breed fish which prefer to spawn in soft water? What if they wanted to remove some things which were bad for the fish? What if they had a way to remove the minerals, etc... which made the water very pure, but they couldn't use the pure water without adding some of the things back in (sort of like humans shouldn't breathe pure oxygen)?



Walter

[TankWatcher]

Sydney water is very soft, so a lot of Sydney siders do get away without RO. My hubby uses RO. He uses to for his reef tank, but I don't use it for my discus or other fresh water tanks.

[Roxanne]

Hi Walter:)

I realise most people have to get rid of something crappy in their water, but, and I was and still am stating only my own preference, I would NOT want to come home and see all my discus standing on their heads like happened to Robyn. If there's other ways to soften/whatever the water that are less scary, I go there....cos I am a chicken:p


...What if they had a way to remove the minerals, etc... which made the water very pure, but they couldn't use the pure water without adding some of the things back in (sort of like humans shouldn't breathe pure oxygen)?

OK so I ask again, I must be missing the point, but why use the pure water that you have to add minerals back to? (Not taking into consideration those who have a special reason to use RO)...:confused:

Rox

[Patr1ck]

Hi Walter:)
OK so I ask again, I must be missing the point, but why use the pure water that you have to add minerals back to? (Not taking into consideration those who have a special reason to use RO)...:confused:

Rox

Hey Roxanne, One reason would be to remove heavy metals, chlorine and chloramine without having to add more chemicals to the water to get rid of them. Another reason would be to get rid of other unwanted things i.e. cysts, coliform bacteria(E.coli is a type) that may be in someones tap. Also, some places have higher nitrate levels in their water. An ro filter would get rid of that too. Others have high copper levels and so if you wanted to have a tank full of inverts you would need to remove that copper. If your water was very turbid (cloudy) the Ro filter would take care of it. Tap water can have certain amounts of fecal bacteria and radioactive elements as well. I guess it depends on what is in your tap water and what you plan to do with it.

Doesnt all this make you want to run to the sink for a drink of water:spit:

Maybe your water companys website has a drinking water analysis or a water quality report that you can see whats in it.

HTH,
P:)

[Roxanne]

OK, I should not have brought RO into the thread, sorry for making this worse!!

Pat Asked: How many people out there use strong aeration in their aging barrel to remove chlorine from their tap water? A bunch said prime/carbon filtration. The answers are relevant to each persons individual supply as, quote

Ken said: "i dont think its as easy of a question to answer as presented ..... some people/townships /city have chlorine and some have Cloramine , and other heavy metals & some have well water so you almost need to know what your trying to remove , Chlorine can be removed by aging and strong aeration where as the Cloramine's take much longer and harder to remove from your water , this is why i use "Prime " and dont have to worrie at all ."

which is actually the answer to the original question ie: chlorine.
Now, To someone who has ammonia in their water, AND chlorine in their water
then they have chloramine in their water. RIGHT?/WRONG? (say when I'm wrong ok) Diskees said : "Chlorine can be illiminated by airation , chloramine however is a combination of Chlorine and ammonia . To get rid of the chlorine , airate ( step one ) , and to get rid of the ammonia use a good working biological filter . After conditioning the water this way you are OK as far as discus go . "

I think when Diskees said to deal with a ammonia and chlorine in your water as seperate issues, but said "chloramine however is a combination of Chlorine and ammonia" , I misconstrued, because of the way it was written, that he meant to deal with chloramine that way, and I don't think he meant that(sorry diskees)...unless you do mean that?

Do we agree: if there is chlorine AND ammonia in the water, there HAS to be chloramine (RIGHT/WRONG?)AND chlorine will KILL the good bacteria on a biological filter, so u can't run chloraminated water through a bio filter and expect it to get rid of the ammonia if the biological filter is DEAD? ...Graham where am I wrong here?:confused:

Rox

[Graham]

:) If you were to add chlorinated water to a tank that had ammonia in it You would not get chloramines forming. It's not that simple. It takes the right amounts, something like 5:1 and then pH and temp get involved....leave this one up to the chemists at the water company

Before chlorinated or chloramines water ever gets near a fish or an established bio it should be neutralized with the appropriate de-chlorinator in a separate holding tank...Or if the water is being added directly to the tank, there should be an appropriate amount of de-chlor added to the tank prior to the new water going in. The neutralization of chlorine or chloramines is instant.

G

[Diskees]

Roxanne . Thereis water that has been treated with Chloramines and then there is water that has been treated with Chlorine . So what do we have ? Non treated water and the treated water . Treatment with Chloramines will create som kind of a problem We can get rid of the Chloramines by filtering over granulated carbon , followed up by a regular carbon filter . This may take up to five days and the flow over the granulated carbon should be very low ( lets say 1 gallon per hour ) . Why are you afraid of getting Chloramines in your aquarium water ? If there is ammonia in your water the carrying capacity of your filter is not large enough . The biological filter is the most important part of your set-up . My filter systems were of the dry filter type and had a surface area equal to the surface area of the main aquarium , with a bed depth of about 10 inches . So with the right biological filter there should not be any any ammonia in your water . If you aerate your make-up water you should have no chlorine left in your ( make-up ) water . So where is the chloramine comming from ? ( provided your water has been treated with chlorine only . ) If your water was treated with chloramines you should aerate and filter as I discussed before . Diskees

[TankWatcher]

I would NOT want to come home and see all my discus standing on their heads like happened to Robyn. If there's other ways to soften/whatever the water that are less scary, I go there....cos I am a chickenwhatever caused the head standing, it wasn't RO :)

[Roxanne]

Hey Robyn, someone elses discus were half dead and head standing because they left something on and it sucked all the oxygen or something out of the water...u gonna make me find the thread aren't you..;)

Hi Graham:)


:) If you were to add chlorinated water to a tank that had ammonia in it You would not get chloramines forming. It's not that simple. It takes the right amounts, something like 5:1 and then pH and temp get involved

Didn't mean to imply that it was as simple as that but if a "chloramine bond" is chlorine 'attached' to ammonia, what is a chloramine?(I'm not being cheeky..):)


:) Before chlorinated or chloramines water ever gets near a fish or an established bio it should be neutralized with the appropriate de-chlorinator in a separate holding tank..The neutralization of chlorine or chloramines is instant.


As you say, in a seperate holding tank, why? because you will kill the biofilter if you added it to a tank? Right? Which is why I don't understand why diskees can say to run the water thru a bio filter without treating it first, and how can you get rid of chloramine with aeration in a hurry? If it takes weeks to get rid of it and you do x many water changes/week, imagine the water storage facillity you would need to build?


Why are you afraid of getting Chloramines in your aquarium water ? Diskees

Are you drunk?


Before chlorinated or chloramines water ever gets near a fish or an established bio it should be neutralized


If there is ammonia in your water the carrying capacity of your filter is not large enough Diskees.

There isn't any ammonia in my TANK, I have ammonia in my TAP WATER, it is also CHLORINATED...which is why I cannot put it through a bio filter.....and why AERATION does not get rid of the ammonia after 10 days....somebody tell me am I speaking another language?


The biological filter is the most important part of your set-up . Diskees

No really? I'm blonde but I am not stupid!


If you aerate your make-up water you should have no chlorine left in your ( make-up ) water . So where is the chloramine comming from ? ( provided your water has been treated with chlorine only . ) If your water was treated with chloramines you should aerate and filter as I discussed before . Diskees

You act surprised that there is ammonia in my tap water, then say to run it thru a bio filter to get rid of the ammonia? If that's your advice to someone with chloramine/chlorine in their supply water, I'm glad I'm not listening!

[Diskees]

Yes Roxanne I am amazed that you have ammonia in your tap water . Tap water is treated with chlorine or chloramines . Not with ammonia alone ! I said that if you have chloramine treated water you should filter it over granulated charcoal followed up by a regular charcoal filter . ( sunlight and heating will also help to get rid of the chloramines ) This process willtake at least 5 days at a slow flowrate . As for chlorine you just aerate for about 24 Hrs . Always start from your tap water . Never add de-chlorinating tablets to your water . Why add something ( that will change your natural water condition ) if it is not necessary . There is no secret about discus water . Just keep it as natural and fresh as possible . Always worked for me . The only thing you have to watch out for is the calcium content of the water when the eggs are laid and are ready to hatch . Diskees

[Diskees]

Roxanne . In order to prove that I know what I am talking abouy , GOOGLE , Diskees ( freeservers ) and have a look at my main aquarium . And ..... no I don;t think you are stupid:D Diskees

[Roxanne]

.... Treatment with Chloramines will create som kind of a problem .... Why are you afraid of getting Chloramines in your aquarium water ? Diskees

All due respect, How can you be advising me diskees, if you keep contradicting what you say? I thought I was misinterpreting you, but you are just being fuzzy.....

I'm not googling nothing cos that's about the third or fourth shameless plug you have got in during a thread, and you have yet to convince me you even know what you are talking about. In another thread you asked me why I was putting ammonia into my cycling tank.......I can confuse myself enough without your help thanks very much.

[Diskees]

Roxanne the reason I asked you why you put ammonia in your tank is because ammonia will get in the tank by itself . You put two fish in and later you may put in a few more . Although I must say that I had 4 fish in a 50 gallon tank at the most . I am not trying to confuse you at all . Just read what I write . The subject of water is the most important issue in keeping discus . I have done it for 40 years so I am not a newcomer to the hobby . All I do is to help . If that sis not appreciated just skip my posts and I will not be mad about that at all . With regards Diskees

[TankWatcher]

Sorry all - this is off topic.


u gonna make me find the thread aren't you.. Thanks, but though the reason was debated & disputed on another forum, I believe the cause was the C02 & a line coming loose. That line is now secured by about 3 of those PVC cable tie things. Plus visual checks every day. It's not going to happen again

[Roxanne]

Roxanne the reason I asked you why you put ammonia in your tank is because ammonia will get in the tank by itself . You put two fish in and later you may put in a few more . Although I must say that I had 4 fish in a 50 gallon tank at the most . I am not trying to confuse you at all . Just read what I write . The subject of water is the most important issue in keeping discus . I have done it for 40 years so I am not a newcomer to the hobby . All I do is to help . If that sis not appreciated just skip my posts and I will not be mad about that at all . With regards Diskees

Diskees I am certain you are not TRYING to confuse me, you tell me to read what you say and I do, but if you read what I wrote you wouldn't have answered the way you did. I cannot put my water through a biofilter without treating it first, no matter how many years you have kept fish and if you think it's mean to the fishies to neutralize the nasties, ask them how the ammonia, chlorine and chloramines feel on their gills and blood vessels and how they feel about their biofilter being destroyed? Why can't you see the logic on that?

I'm not going to put my fish through a cycle? Wouldn't that be a bit MEAN to the fish? Especially coming from someone who puts such emphasis on the comfort of the fish? I kept the tank cycled so it would be ready for them. You asked me why I put ammonia into the tank and it's because of the reason I just said. Otherwise I would be a bit of an IDIOT wouldn't I? I take responsibility for being partially an idiot because I didn't check what was in the ammonia that made it cloudy before I used it...

You could be the best discus keeper in the universe but if you think someone with my water can go without dechlor & you would advise them to do so, it just goes to show a person has to do their own homework to be sure....;)

[Diskees]

Roxanne . you just do what you think is right . Maybe in the future we may hit on this subject again . If however you are a little interested in a well planted tank with a lot of healthy discus I would google anyhow just to satisfy my curiosity . With regards Diskees

[Roxanne]

Chlorine can be illiminated by airation , chloramine however is a combination of Chlorine and ammonia . To get rid of the chlorine , airate ( step one ) , and to get rid of the ammonia use a good working biological filter . After conditioning the water this way you are OK as far as discus go . Diskees

If there is chlorine in it, how r you going to get rid of the ammonia by aeration without first breaking the chloramine bond?
I thought I had misinterpreted what you said but there it is above...you imply it is a 2 step process...those 2 steps would have just killed my bio filter..


PS:
Tap water is treated with chlorine or chloramines . Not with ammonia alone Diskees

I didn't say it was...if you read what I wrote, there is ammonia in the DAM & so they chlorinate

[Diskees]

Roxanne . Now I see why we got confused . If you have ONLY chlorine in the water you simply aerate ( outside the tank ) . Since the tank then does not have any chlorine in it no more ( when you fill it with your chlorine treated water ) you may find a build-up of ammonia in the water ( because of the fish in it ) . This ammonia will be filtered out by a good aerated biological filter . Now ......chloramine will be a different story . Chloramine has to be treated outside the tank . It takes quite a long time to do this ( the natural way ) . After a period of about 5 days of filtering over granulated charcoal this chloramine will have dissapated . Regards Diskees

[Graham]

To the best of my knowledge NHCl2/chloramine can not be formed in our aquariums. It takes high amounts of each element at a 5:1 ratio in a pH greater than 8.4....so unless a person has a CL2/chlorine gas bottle and pure NH3/ammonia it isn't going to happen. Especially in our tanks with the extremely low levels of these elements that we encounter.

This is all such a non-issue...use a de-chlor made for both, like Prime, which is the right/typical/standard way to do it and Kees can trickle water for days on end through AC :rolleyes:


Kees, You have a very nice tank so do a 100 other people on this board.

I'm not sure what part of the world you live in but having ambient NH3 in tap water is fairly common, especially in rural areas where lots of fertilizers are used.

Also getting rid of chloramine via AC is impractial as hell. Lets see I need 200gallons per day and according to you the flow should be about 1 gallon per hour ...so 24 gallons per day....:bandana:

There's a lot of people breeding a lot of fish on this and other boards and they mainly use Prime or a basic sodium thiosulfate de=chlor.....are they wrong.

G

[Diskees]

Graham . No they are not wrong . If you spawn discus you must be doing everything right . No matter how you do it , its the end result that counts . I never worried much about chloramines forming in my tank because like you said it is impossible to have this happen under these circumstances . Regards Kees

[Patr1ck]

Didn't mean to imply that it was as simple as that but if a "chloramine bond" is chlorine 'attached' to ammonia, what is a chloramine?(I'm not being cheeky..):)

Hey Roxanne
You're right, chloramine is what you just said (chlorine attached to ammonia). Those 2 substances when placed next to each other dont attach to each other by themselves they need help. They need specific concentrations of both and certain ph values. Water companies scientifically provide the help they need. They "glue" these chemicals(chlorine and ammonia) together somewhere outside of the water column and, once "glued" they dump the newly formed compound(chloramine) into the drinking water. I hope this explains things better.:)

P

[rfeiller]

GAC is the standard method for removal of chlorimines in the fish stores and wholesaters setups in my area. the exposure of the chlorimines to the GAC has to be calculated according to the quantity of water needed to be de-chlorimined per minute, average taps put out 6gpm here.

a 2cu ft container in the SF bay area of GAC cost $28 per month to lease. that cannister gets changed out every other month. it will remove chlorimines from thousands of gallons of tap water, which is a heck of a lot cheaper then pet products. nothing is being added to the water that the fish have to deal with. sodium thiosulfate can produce side affects in humans. besides being messy and having to measure out Amquel, Prime or whatever per gal. of course with a couple of tanks it makes sense to use one of those products, but just can't see it on any more than that. of course on elevated floors having a GAC cannister would be very difficult.

[Graham]

If you want to buy those silly little containers of de-chlor that pet stores sell then you get what you deserve...on the other hand, $46 of ChloramX will treat 18,000+ gallons of water instantly....no screwing around with AC, waiting till it looks after the chloramines, , hoping that at the end of two months, the AC isn't exhusted.

It is completely safe for fish and humans...try a koi show and see how much of the stuff we go through, using it on fish worth $100> $50,000 each.

:bandana:

http://www.aquaticeco.com/subcategories/1734/ClorAm-X

[rfeiller]

my KOI are on a flow through system cannected to a GAC tank. my 1200 gallon per day RO system utlilizes two TFC membranes, it too is connected to a GAC tank. very efficient, no mixing. and yes a friend of mine owns a large KOI import-export, wholesale and retail business. i'm aware of KOI shows. by the way his large ponds are on GAC tanks.

[Graham]

And your point is????????? For the average hobbyist ...wasting thousands of gallons of water in a flow through system and or a RO unit isn't feasible or affordable....

Ever hear of the KISS principle....products like ChloramX fits the bill.

Try show some of you koi and see how much de-chlor they live in by Sunday afternoon....while not ideal they come out just fine:bandana:

[TankWatcher]

IMO, in Australia having an RO system is quite wasteful. Of course, unless it is absolutly necessary for the water/fish your are keeping. Australia is in drought & I feel I use enough water just on normal WC, without using either RO (which from I understand wastes more water than the RO it makes) or use a python (which usually requires the tap to run to keep up the suction to drain).

I buy Prime in bulk on line, but maybe I will look into some of the alternatives mentioned here, eg. sodium thiosulfate. Where would you buy this? A hardware store?

[Roxanne]

pool shop Robyn,:)(or bunnings, maybe) it's used if we use too much chlorine in the swimming pool, I just didn't know it could be used in aquarium...seeing as humans swim in the water, children drink the water, the dog drinks the water, I'm sure it's fine to use in an aquarium, could be wrong, but I'm not hearing anyone saying their fries are being born with two heads so.....

the thread Graham gave says it neutralises chlorine, chloramine, ammonia instantly. But, I don't know if it is going to take care of the other heavy metals found in our water, that conditioners do...Graham could answer that, if you don't mind Graham..

[Graham]

pool shop Robyn,(or bunnings, maybe) it's used if we use too much chlorine in the swimming pool, I just didn't know it could be used in aquarium...seeing as humans swim in the water, children drink the water, the dog drinks the water, I'm sure it's fine to use in an aquarium, could be wrong, but I'm not hearing anyone saying their fries are being born with two heads so.....

But, I don't know if it is going to take care of the other heavy metals found in our water, Graham can answer that, please Graham..

Since your water goes through a water compant before you ever get it, any heavy metals, above health guide lines would be looked after by them. This shouldn't be a problem for the fish

[TankWatcher]

:)I think I might just feel safer sticking with Prime. When bought in bulk on line, it's not that expensive & lasts me quite a while. The dosage rate is known, it's so easy & convenient. Maybe if I ever have a larger set up, I'll have a rethink, but now I'll stick with what I know :)
Interesting though.

[Patr1ck]

IMO, in Australia having an RO system is quite wasteful. Of course, unless it is absolutly necessary for the water/fish your are keeping. Australia is in drought & I feel I use enough water just on normal WC, without using either RO (which from I understand wastes more water than the RO it makes) or use a python (which usually requires the tap to run to keep up the suction to drain).

I didnt like all of the water that was being wasted when my python was on suction mode too, So I came up with this to save some water. Its alot faster than some of the other methods, removes about 25% of my 90 gallon in @ 10 mins.
http://www.northerntool.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/product_6970_16818_16818
I plumbed it to my python and to an outlet hose that runs to the tub with these garden hose fittings from Lowes Hardware Store.
http://www.lowes.com/lowes/lkn?action=productList&No=24&Ne=4294967294&category=Hose+Repair+and+Accessories&N=4294960618
I get the water draining with the python faucet adapter first. Then I transfer it to the pump in order to not dry start the pump. If anybody's interested its pretty convenient, saves alot of time and water during wc's. :D

HTH,
P

[TankWatcher]

Thanks Pat. That's a good idea. I do a sort of variation on your system. I have 2 pumps. One that sits inside my 1,000L water storage tank - this is for filling the tank.

I don't use a pump for the syphon, 'cause I like to gravel vac. A pump would empty too quickly for me & I don't think I'd have time vac up the debri before too much water was emptied. In a BB it would work, but IMO in a planted you have to do it a bit more slowly & gently. So, I gravel vac into a 120L container. In that container there is a pump & a hose to eventually get rid of the water. Another reason I like to do it that way is if any small fish get sucked into the syphon, I have a 2nd chance to save it. My silly female Nigerian Red went for a trip up the gravel vac a week or so back. Would have lost her, if I emptied straight into the sink or garden.

[Joshcat]

Prime!

[Roxanne]

..My silly female Nigerian Red went for a trip up the gravel vac a week or so back. ..

lolol.....methods of removing fish from tank water....

:D

[TankWatcher]

I've had fry sucked up the tube too (apisto or krib - not discus), as well as glass shrimps.

Sadly, the Nigerian Red's husband jumped out & died. Annoyingly, I was in the room at the time, with my back to that tank, while I did maintenance to another. He was still alive when I found him, so I added him back to the tank. You could tell he was never going to make it & he didn't. Other pple have told me they have rescued a jumped fish after hours on the floor. He could only have been 15 mins. I was very upset about that.

[Patr1ck]

I've had fry sucked up the tube too (apisto or krib - not discus), as well as glass shrimps.

Bummer about your fish. :( I had the same thing happen to me when I used the python. Now I use this. http://www.aquariumguys.com/tube.html
If i'm not gonna clean any gravel I can get the tank draining and walk away with no worries.:)

P

[MostlyDiscus]

I used to use carbon torpedoes, 2 of them in fact to pretreat my water before it hit the RO. I had a softener after the carbon as well. One torp. sprung a leak and the I stopped using them. Too heavy to move around and they took up space. I use prime now and that seems to work well for me. My electric bill was double last month, arggg. I am so trying to cut back on anything electric. Graham,, few photos of Peters tangerines I though you might like. Albino tang cross. Ed ok.. .cant get the photo cropped.. will send l8ter. this is the male with fry. I figure over 120 fry atm and double that size now. ed

[TankWatcher]

Thanks Pat,

That's the attachment I have on my refilling line, it acts as a diffuser & softens the flow of return water into the tank. Never seen it for sale separately here, only as part of the whole Lee's version of a python, At that price I'd buy another, but to buy the whole kit here is around AUD$50-70, depending on what length hose you get. As each tank has it's only gravel vac, it would get a little expensive. You guys in the USA can get most "fishy" things heaps cheaper than us.

EDIT: Nice albino you have there MostlyDiscus

[G550]

Hey Robyn, someone elses discus were half dead and head standing because they left something on and it sucked all the oxygen or something out of the water...u gonna make me find the thread aren't you..;)

Hi Graham:)



Didn't mean to imply that it was as simple as that but if a "chloramine bond" is chlorine 'attached' to ammonia, what is a chloramine?(I'm not being cheeky..):)



As you say, in a seperate holding tank, why? because you will kill the biofilter if you added it to a tank? Right? Which is why I don't understand why diskees can say to run the water thru a bio filter without treating it first, and how can you get rid of chloramine with aeration in a hurry? If it takes weeks to get rid of it and you do x many water changes/week, imagine the water storage facillity you would need to build?



Are you drunk?





There isn't any ammonia in my TANK, I have ammonia in my TAP WATER, it is also CHLORINATED...which is why I cannot put it through a bio filter.....and why AERATION does not get rid of the ammonia after 10 days....somebody tell me am I speaking another language?



No really? I'm blonde but I am not stupid!



You act surprised that there is ammonia in my tap water, then say to run it thru a bio filter to get rid of the ammonia? If that's your advice to someone with chloramine/chlorine in their supply water, I'm glad I'm not listening!

diskesee arent you trying to eliminate nitrites also. tell me where all that amonia goes after it runs through your bio filterNITRITE so why do water changes at all?

[MostlyDiscus]

Thx TW. I will put more photos on the gallery soon. Ed

[Diskees]

Roxanne IS MIXING CHLORINE AND CHLORAMINES when she answers me . If you have chlorine in your water you aerate . If you , for one or another reason have ammonia in your tap water you run it through a good size biological filter . Biological filtration will take out the ammonia ( simply said ! ) . Chloramines are different from chlorine . Chloramines are combined at the water department and injected in the water supply ( a combination of chlorine and ammonia ) . You have known about this without a doubt . Chlorine and ammonia do not form into chloramines in your tank . Even if you have a little ammonia in your tank , where does the chlorine come from ? You should have aerated the chlorine out before putting the water into your tank . So what gives ? Diskees

[G550]

now you are left with nitrites or nitrates which defeats the purpose of the water change in the first place. You are basically cycling your holding tank so by the time your done with it it also needs to be changed.:angel:

[Patr1ck]

Thanks Pat,

That's the attachment I have on my refilling line, it acts as a diffuser & softens the flow of return water into the tank. Never seen it for sale separately here, only as part of the whole Lee's version of a python, At that price I'd buy another, but to buy the whole kit here is around AUD$50-70, depending on what length hose you get. As each tank has it's only gravel vac, it would get a little expensive. You guys in the USA can get most "fishy" things heaps cheaper than us.

EDIT: Nice albino you have there MostlyDiscus

Cool. It sounds like your methods are well thought out. It shows that you must really care for your fish.:thumbsup:

P

[Diskees]

Roxanne . You guys just do what you think is good to raise discus . I am out of here . Diskees

[tcyiu]

WOW. What a thread. Here I was banging on Diskees in another thread when after having read what he has actually written, I find myself agreeing with most of what he said. (AND of course Graham is also right. But no one seems to be picking a fight with him).

Very simply stated, what Diskees says (that which I agree with):
- Chlorine and Chloramine are two distinctly different chemicals.
- Chlorine is easy to get rid of
- Chloramine is very hard to break down.

Where I disagree with Diskees is how he discounts the need to chemically break down chloramine. What he proposed in filtration is impractical for most aquarist. In my opinion (and it seems that of most seasoned aquarists) is to just add a dechlorinator since it will take care of both chlorine and chloramine. For whatever reason, he doesn't do it and worse, he recommends against it. I feel this is downright irresponsible because there are parts of the world where chloramine concentrations will kill fish.

Roxanne, if you can somehow get comfortable with the idea that chloramine is NOT chlorine plus ammonia, Diskees position will be more clear.

I hope I helped somewhat. God forbid that I fanned a flame war.

[Roxanne]

I'm sure no one is picking a fight with anyone..at least I hope not ..Graham didn't cause confusion so why would anyone "pick a fight with him" anyway...If you noticed, I'm not the only 1 Diskees (albeit with the best of intentions) 'confused'...and as you stated, his advice regarding treatment is way dangerous, so, regardless of whether or not I understand what a chloramine actually is, has nothing to do with his mistatements....