free fish or cull

[Peachtree Discus]

i wanted to pose my issue here before i make a "final" decision.

i have a decent amount of items (maybe 20 of 50) from a spawn that i think should be culled as they seem to be growing slower than most of the others. they are bigger than the oscar (culler) can deal with, so i am leaning towards the clove oil. i feel these items should be culled....nothing less. i would prefer a reputation of having quality fish - not be known as a cull distributer :p.

here's the problem. as a breeder, i am a bit embarrassed to say that i am not really comfortable with culling them. so a friend mentioned and i have considered giving the items away. so, i made this poll. i appreciate any feedback.

[ShinShin]

Cull them for the good of the hobby. There is enough crap out there without adding to the mess. A cull is a cull - period.

Mat

[brewmaster15]

HI Wes,
Generous as it is, I'm not really comfortable with someone buying them with proceeds going to the forum... Its one thing if they were quality stock being donated, but since thats not the case...I'd rather not see the forum associated with them.. Thanks though!:)

take care,
al

[CraigG]

I don't breed them but I will try when I get a bigger place. I know I won't cull any fish can't do that to a living animal (i will feed animals to others though strange huh).

If I can't feed them to something else. I will just give them away to people who want them, I will let them know that they aren't quality but they will be free.

They can use them for what they want.

[kenhappen2u]

i know that i am still pretty wet behind the ears and still learning much as each day goes by , and i totally understand why culling is needed at time's ,

But... if these" items " (fish) only defect is that they are slow growers why not give them away to people who would otherwise not be able to afford them and would not mind taking the time and effort it takes to try and get them to bulk/catch up . what wrong with giving them a chance seeing as there only defect is slow growing ? maybe just getting them out of the tank with thier bigger tank mates wouldnt that give them a fighting chance to become the dominant fish in the new tank/home and in doing so just MAYBE they would go through a growth spurt ... i dont recall him saying they were stunted at this point .

[rfeiller]

i had a shipment of fish from a famous breeder in germany. they took two years to grow up. nothing wrong with the fish, just slow growers. that may not be the case with your fish, but

[dogfish101]

hi
i just cant see killing anything unless they are badly deformed and not gona make it anyways .there are people out there like me that will not cull a one they are still beautiful fish .just give them away :)

[Peachtree Discus]

with great breeding comes great responsibility :D....now i using quotes from spiderman....oo lawd!!! i call them "items" cuz there is no point in differentiating between sub-adult/juvie/fry in this example.

poll results are interesting now (9cull/10give) ...i will continue to try to fix them for a few more weeks and see if a few more numbers come in.

jus for the conversation....:argue:. in the event someone takes them for the discus experience and puts honest effort into caring and raising them....at the end they end up with a bunch of ram-looking adult discus..(adult slow growers). whereas if they put the same effort into quality fish...the reward would be, IMO, much more gratifying

[*Polka dots roc*]

Personally I think that we don't kill our children just because they aren't perfect so why kill a fish that isn't perfect. If they can be grown to a healthy adult then why not... but if they are going to just slowly die or get sick easily then cull. I know alot of novices who don't care if there fish are perfect or not.. and that, that gives a fish character. As long as you give it to someone who takes care of them and knows they are not perfect breeding specimens then why not.

[pcsb23]

Cull them for the good of the hobby. There is enough crap out there without adding to the mess. A cull is a cull - period.

MatCompletely agree :)

[rfeiller]

would you rather a newcomer to discus first experience be with a "pet" grade or a top grade fish. what percentage of young discus make it in the hobby with experieced hobbyist much less with a novice. i don't think a many survive. i would rather folks start with pet quality and learn about the discus and then purchase better looking fish.

by the way in the late 80's a good breeder i know was trying to develope a dwarf strain of discus. he had fish that with top care grew no larger than 2-1/2". think about it though. discus require a large aquarium, this limits their popularity, to develope a dwarf strain would open new possibilities.

[ShinShin]

Richard,

I remember reading about the dwarf discus which you are refering. I didn't see a future then, nor do I now. I must not be alone on that, because they never made it that I am aware.

I admittedly read the selections and voted before I read the first post. I still think I would vote the same. If people would absolutely refuse to buy low quality, breeders and exporters would be forced to cull these fish themselves and eventually discus prices would not be tiered the way they are now. A decent discus would then be able to be bought for a decent price. I never have subscribed to the lfs grade or pet grade line of thinking.

Mat

[Darren's Discus]

I'm sure most who have bred discus over the years would agree,when you first start out and you get a batch or two you think wow and you raise them all trying not to loose any and their are a couple that don't grow as quick or they might have a deformaty so you say "aren't they cute"and you name them but as the years go on and you keep breeding and producing more fish and buying more tanks to house them and your food bill goes through the roof and over the years the experience you gain tells you no point raising deformed smaller specimens all it does is bring the hobby down as we see on simply by the amount of post's regarding LFS discus being poor quality or customers being ripped off !The only way to increase the hobby is by having great specimens in tanks,sure they might arrive in great condition and go down hill in the store due to lack of proper care,but why produce something of poor quality !i'm sure if you went into a car showroom and they said this one is cheaper because it's only got 3 wheels and half the paint you would not want it,imagine going into a steakhouse ordering a steak and they bring out this tiny peice of meat,you say to the waiter whats this?he says sorry sir it was from a runt cow would you go OK and eat it ? To keep any runts or deformed fish is only bringing the hobby down ! SO CULL I SAY !!

cheers

[YSS]

I don't see a need to cull a healthy fish (assuming they are healthy). There are a lot of folks who wouldn't mind less than perfect free fish. The owners of those fish won't breed them anyway, so hobby is safe. I, for one, won't mind a few free fish. Perfect discus are stunning, but the less than perfect ones are fine by me. I have a few in my tank already. :)

[geleen]

Having bred hundreds of quality dogs,my experience taught me to cull. The poor quality and others given away ( for free with the new owners knowing) caused more hurt than was worth it; to them and in the end to me.

Of course some got very good homes, but......"playing" with other peoples emotions and sense of value has no place in a quality breeding operation.

Your reputation is also on the line, the bad spreads mighty fast even though and maybe because, you acted from your heart.
For the sake of the breed and the new owners only sell quality, you will sleep better.:)
John

[1077]

Someone who may not otherwise ever be able to afford a fine fishing rod would gladly use a canepole if it caught fish. In a commercial operation dealing in quality,quantity, and ones reputation I can understand not wasting resources that could benefit the many to save or nurture the few. I should think there would be more than a few (myself included) that would be happy to care for what some deem as imperfect.

[brewmaster15]

Hi all,
I voted cull them...for many of the reasons others have said..

Since we started this forum I can't tell you how many times a hobbyist has come here new to the forum, so excited to have bought their first discus only to find that they bought a stunted or runted or worst...deformed discus. I get the Pms all the time with questions regarding these fish once they realize they didn't get what they had thought they were getting.:(

When you don't cull a cull and give it away to people....you can have the best intentions and the person they go to can also... but that fish can just as easily wind up back in the hobby and in some inexperienced hobbyists tank... and then they wind up here... Its not fair to future hobbyists and the hobby itself to give away culls...I've been in a lot of arguements over it...and just have to say...I have had to deal with too many devastated hobbyists over this...and its cost the hobby future ones, IME.


I can undertstand peoples point of view on killing otherwise healthy fish....I do think though that with breeding livestock of any kind, comes a responsibility....no offense ment to anyone that disagrees.

thanks,
al

[1077]

" They shoot horses don't they?" And in the words of "cool hand luke"... "callin it your job boss, don't make it right."

[brewmaster15]

Everytime this topic of culling comes around...it usually has some people that take the view that Its wrong to Cull a fish because its not a good specimen... Can't argue there...you all are entitled to your own views. as am I... fact is though if Discus were not culled and bred for the best characteristics... what we would have today as a"discus" would be something far removed from the magestic fish most people here fell in love with....maintaining that fish in this state takes human intervention and some standards.

To cull a fish thats not growing...is runted, stunted mishappen, or deformed is the responsibility of a breeder that cares about the future of discus and about other hobbyists... Its not something most enjoy doing...but most breeders (even hobby breeders) recognize this as the nature of the beast......Most hobbyists come to terms with that with experience as they breed their Discus and experience Breeding first hand in fact vs theory....It changes how you look at it.. I hate culling fish...But I raise fish ultimately to go to hobbyists....therefore I need to focus on what is in the best interest of the hobby and hobbyists that may own my home bred stock.

last note.. and this one usually gets me in trouble with someone..:( Its a beautiful creature...this thing we call a discus.. I've spent ages admiring them and had a hand in building this forum as a place to learn about them but its a fish still....We should not lose sight of that reality...Its been removed from the wild and is being bred by humans ....we bare all responsibility for how it will ultimately look in this hobby....If we as hobbyists want it to make it represent something in appearance...it takes a proactive position to do it...

Thats my story and I'm sticking to it!:)

hth,
al

[1077]

you make an excellent point. Many of the fish in the hobby today are weakened ,watered down specimens that are not nearly as hardy as the same fish were twenty years ago. Too MUCH human intervention. I fear I will always be a sucker for the under dog or in this case for those specimens that don't measure up to others standards. With all due respect. ;)

[brewmaster15]

you make an excellent point. Many of the fish in the hobby today are weakened ,watered down specimens that are not nearly as hardy as the same fish were twenty years ago. Too MUCH human intervention. I fear I will always be a sucker for the under dog or in this case for those specimens that don't measure up to others standards. With all due respect

1077,
Thats fine.....sellers of substandard fish need customers too!:) Seriously though...I guess we'll just have to disagree...I can live with that.:)

take care,
al

[1077]

Some might ask why not destroy the adult fish that produce abmormal, stunted, deformed, slow growing specimens? Even if it were only three out of fifty young , why not eliminate the possibility at the outset?

[Peachtree Discus]

even in-depth post where culling is part of the topic seems to alway get touchy. i was jus curious about what the majority would say.


...why not destroy the adult fish that produce abmormal, stunted, deformed, slow growing specimens...

well, maybe not destroy them - but don't breed them. at the advice of some experts here, i have already separated the parents. interesting that most of the people that say give the fish away seem to have a lower post count. not to imply anything about anyone1's experience...rather their involvement in this forum.


...we don't kill our children just because they aren't perfect ....

that's true...but also are not "bred" (unless you believe in the matrix :D) i think humans are more along the line of mating behaviors....pairing-up and raising our "fry". later...1 parent can be better keeper of the fry and in some cases 1 parent has to be separated....hopefully not for eating they fry tho.

[Joshcat]

Not to be controversial at all, but I see this as a two sided fence. In my opinion as a "breeder" or "hatchery" of discus it would be socially irresponsible to sell anything that is less than desirable affiliated with your name. In addition, giving what you deem"cull fish" away would create a demand for something that would ultimately take away from your bottom line. As I'm sure many people especially in today's society who are mere hobbyist, would jump on the opportunity to own a discus, even less than perfect, that doesn't have the large price tag affiliated with quality fish.

On the other hand, you have people like my husband and myself who desire quality fish and end up purchasing "cull fish" because their are breeders out there that are just looking to make a buck. They pray upon those of us who haven't been fortunate enough to have found sites like this to educate us on where to purchase or not purchase fish from. Out of the purchase of 8 fish from what we have now learned to be a non reputable breeder their are only 3 that I deem a good enough quality to breed. Sad but true! Out of the 3 that are decent quality fish none of them are the same strain, nor would they be compatible as breeding mates, which was our ultimate goal.

Although we will never purchase from this breeder again, our choice and part of our passion was to nurture these fish and grow them out, making them our own pride and joy. Eventually hoping to end up with breeding pairs out of the bunch. To our dismay we will never be able to accomplish this with these particular fish.

In saying this, our "cull fish" are our pets. They have personality galore, against all odds we have been able to nurture them to good health and they will have a home in a community tank and hopefully live long and healthy lives.

Ethics play such a big roll in all of this. "Being burned" in addition to seeing every LFS selling poor quality discus fish in our area is disheartening."If" and "when" we are ever able to breed, I know my husband takes a strong stance on culling because of this fact. I am more of a every living creature deserves the right to live type of person. A pound puppy becomes some child's best friend. But again, to give fish away would be counter productive and to keep all culls would ludicrous. For those of us that don't believe in trying to sell an inferior product.

I don't believe that there is a right or a wrong answer to this. What I do believe is, it's a shame in every walk of life people victimize and take advantage of others simply because they can get away with it and have no repercussion's.

Sincerely, Cathy

[lauris]

Fish aren't people. Those who jump from culling fry to culling children are just silly and disrespectful to others and sane discourse.

Fish naturally produce culls. Fish produce hundreds of fry to test their environment, to combine genes with some variation that may or may not advance their collective prospects. Very very few of the eggs laid or fry hatched in the Amazon make it to adulthood and those that don't are 'culls' in that they don't swim as fast, have poorer eyesight, or reactions, or luck or whatever. A pair in an aquarium that throws 6% culls (3 out of 50 was a previous ratio mentioned in this thread) is fantastic.

Culls are unhealthy. This might be somewhat of a stretch, but there is a reason they are smaller or not as well-shaped. They lack a sufficient digestion enzyme or protein (or whatever) that keeps them from thriving along with their spawn mates. They are not noticeably smaller or differently configured because Ronny the Runt Discus is shy, or misunderstood, or waiting to be nurtured. If you want to make a cull discus happy, give him a smaller cull discus to swallow. No fish is happier than when it is eating whole another fish.

One is much better off starting with non-culls. The idea that one should start with culls is ill-advised. You don't need to pay $90 per for the latest craze, but top quality turqs or blue diamonds or what have you will reward your efforts and expense much more than some random culls. Discus are somewhat unique in that they require intensive effort over many months to reach their potential. They are different in that they have been so refined from their wild to domestic state. In an imperfect comparison, should one start with guppy culls? Who wants to raise colorless guppies only to have to start over again to do it right and end up with good stock to breed. To the extent wanting culls are a pocketbook issue, be assured that the cost of the fish is small compared to the cost of rearing it to adulthood. You get what you pay for, in discus perhaps even more so than otherwise in life.

Even your first spawn should be culled. There is some distinction to be made between someone who breeds 'seriously' and one who works for years to get one pair to spawn once, but even that first spawn will benefit from culling. Raising 30 fry rather than 50 (or whatever the proportion) is a more realistic endeavor for the average hobbyist. If you have unlimited resources and can raise every fry from every spawn, then you can wait a year and see how they all turn out, but otherwise they will need to be culled early and often in order to give you 10-15 splendid specimens for your next generation.

If you do care about your reputation as a discus breeder it is imperative that you do not let a cull out of your fish room. Whether by word of mouth locally, or via boards like this, people will know this or that fish came from you. If you don't ever expect to have any more discus fry to dispose of, then you don't need to care.

If you must, eat your culls if it makes you feel better. The animal flesh most of us consume comes from culls, if you define culls as those that do not make the cut to be bred, or those that don't thrive, or those that are sickly, or that are fundamentally awry in their conformation. Discus of whatever size can be boiled down or reduced to seasoning paste (most asian groceries sell a fish paste that has a picture of a gourami on its label and I assume that is not a coincidence). Amazonians filet and eat the adults with relish and I have long advocated a discus fry for the ACA.

Culling has zero to do with morality or ethics. It is ignorant to even interject such concepts. Come on, if you are so concerned with the morality or ethics of fish husbandry and the place of culling therein, then look in the mirror. You can buy retrovirals for a child with AIDS in Africa for $18 per month. How many lives could you personally save if you gave up a couple tanks of culls? Should a culler claim that a non-culler prefers a dead African over a football-shaped peppered fish? Or, god forbid, even your good fish. Claiming some moral high ground because you say you wouldn't flush a fish if you ever got yours to spawn while some child lives on the street or in some abject hovel a few miles from where you indulge in a wildly expensive hobby is ludicrous.

Cull or don't cull, its up to you. But keep value judgments, morality and ethics out of the issue.

[moik]

Well ,as I see it with the difference of opinions here. If honest breeders sell fish that are culls, it is just a matter of time they will loose business and just go out of business. Just a thought ,but far from a reality. If an honest breeder breeds quality fry from a quality pair and culls heavy to minimize future culls . What else can they do. Buy a group of "AAA" grade fish at 2-2.5 inches then grow them up. Any body that has been around discus for a little while knows what happens. Some are close to perfect, then some are mid grade then some are culls.Also happens in breeding dogs,cats ,and every other living animal, sad to say even the human race. (That is a fact)If you want to kill this whole toipic all to gether then do not sell a fish that is less 3.5-4 big,. at that age you can pretty much see what you are getting and the care it recieved. "For example"-A 4 inch with a nice round body, with a beautifully nice pattern developing, then a BIG sized eye will tell you the care it got.(stunted in my book)At that size also you can reduce the name game with disucs also(for atleast some strains). At 3.5-4 inches being the smallest that you can buy will bring other concerns into the equation. At that size the price tags will GO UP...Then another topic becomes the question for another difference of opinions.Playing mother nature in your aquariums has its Pro's and Con's.

[Joshcat]

My remark in reference to ethics was in relation to people selling "cull fish" to "unsuspecting buyers" thinking they are paying for quality fish. That is immoral and unethical period! As my husband and I ended paying for what we thought would be good quality fish and ended up with fish that were substandard.

The fact of the matter is this particular breeder as been around for quite some time and is still in business praying on the unsuspecting public. Their web site shows page after page of 5 star feedback, but certainly doesn't show all the dissatisfied customers that leave negative feedback that gets deleted.

It's one thing when a person is aware they are getting a less than quality fish and are happy with that. It's quite another to think you are purchasing a "quality fish" and end up with a "cull fish". The entire reason we choose to purchase through a breeder was because we felt our LFS had substandard fish.

I have absolutely no ill feelings towards people that cull fish and believe it's the nature of the business. I also understand the position of not want to destroy a living creature. My sole problem is with people that "don't cull" and "sell cull" as if they were "quality fish".

I hope I cleared up any misunderstanding that anyone may have had about my previous post.

Cathy

[ShinShin]

Well said, lauris.

Moik,

There are many lfs owners who know they are selling crap and don't care. An uneducated public knows little about discus and only see a blue fish or a red fish or a brown fish when they see their first discus. I tried to sell an owner some top notch red turquois juveniles some years back at 8 bucks a fish to get him to buy some. He said I get five dollar Thai imports, why should I spend 8 ? I said "quality". He said my customers don't know quality.

Mat

[1077]

I believe the practice of culling is understood by many. To suggest that those who express a moral or ethical position are ignorant is in my view dangerous in the sense that in my neck of the woods, You would be@#$%^ slapped until the photos in your billfold cried for doing so. It is fine to express ones opinion, it is quite another to call into question the intelligence or lack thereof of others who do the same. I will stand by this, my last statement on the matter.