Buying discus

[Graemevw]

We have a couple of shops local that sell discus.

Ive read the threads on here about what not to buy etc.

the shop has some lovely discus. All there fish are great shapes, good eye proportions, colourfull, active, good quality fish.

However, one or 2 have raggedy fins and a few little white spots.

Would this put you off buying fish from the same tank, or even from the same shop?

Other than one or 2, the rest (maybe 50 fish in 10 tanks) were to my eyes in fantastic condition.

[brewmaster15]

Generally , I would avoid buying from any supplier that has any sick fish at that time..what you describe though does not sound too bad and could be nothing to worry about.

I guess the best question to ask you here is....Do you have discus already? and will you Quarantine these new discus and if so...how long and what will you do during QT?

al

[Graemevw]

No discus at the moment, still cycling the tank.

The plan is to buy all of them at the same time, from the same supplier.

I wouldnt buy any that werent perfect, and probably wouldnt buy any from the same tank. Although, they will be on a centralised system so i guess it wouldnt make any difference.

The few that were not perfect werent bad, just a little ragged with a few white spots. Still swimming, not shy and not dark.

[bs6749]

I remember from your other thread that your tank looked a little too small for any discus to me but maybe that was just the picture. What size tank do you have? You'll want to keep at least 5-6 discus together unless you are getting a mated pair. You'll have issues if you don't keep them in groups.

[Graemevw]

Yeah, we figured on keeping 4, maybe 5 tops.

Out tank is 200l

[bs6749]

Okay, so the tank is larger than I thought. For some reason I thought you had a 30 gallon or roughly 115 liter tank. You should be able to do 5-6 discus in the tank you have. 6 would be better IMO for them to feel more like a group but I'd avoid 6 and stick with 5 personally. Make sure you have a lot of plants in the tank to soak up excess nitrates.

[Graemevw]

Thats one of the reasons why we wanted plants.

It will get very regular large water changes.

Ive been told before that 5 or 6 would be ok, but i figured i'd stick with 4 or 5 to be on the safe side as our tank is about as small as you can get away with.

4-6?, ill stick with the middle ground and get 5 then :)

I may not go with fish from this shop, i dont know.
There is a breeder about 3 1/2 hours away, but we pass it when we go and visit our families so we'll drop by in a few weeks and meet him.

Still just looking around at the moment thought, tanks only had water for 5 days.

[bs6749]

You can jump start the nitrogen cycle by feeding the tank even though there aren't any fish present. Actually, I wouldn't be afraid to add discus right away, expecially considering that you already have plants in the tank. This will greatly help the fish adjust to the tank.

[Graemevw]

The man in the shop also said 'just put fish in it' but i dont trust that idea.

I gave the tank some liquid ammonia a few days ago but its not really reduced yet. Nitrites are still 0, so obviously nitrates are too.

I keep testing every day but its not kicking in yet.

I wont add fish untill the tank can process ammonia and nitrite.

Do you say its ok to add fish as the large water changes will deal with the waste rather than the filter?

[bs6749]

The plants would take care of the cycle for you. You should keep an eye on everything but doing a "silent cycle" as it's known (using plants) is faster and also effective. Also, when discus are purchased they are ususally placed into an uncycled QT tank and water is changed on a regualr basis. This is another thing you could do.

[kirkp]

Ok, I'm going to throw in my two cents worth and if I get flamed, so be it. I would continue with the ammonia addition until you get the zero ammonia and nitrites. I can't believe that plants will provide enough of a bio-load to take your filters to their ultimate capacity. Getting the filter to the ultimate carrying capacity is what you want. Anything you do short of that is asking for trouble. If you try plants or other fish to seed the filter, they'll develop its capacity to a specific level. Anything you put in later that exceeds the ammonia output of what you had in there before will result in excess nitrite. IF you do daily massive water changes you may be able to stay on top of it. This will only result in stress for your discus. But then, you are free to do what you want but why cut corners?

Kirk

[White Worm]

Ummmm, nope.:o Should not do this. "Usually" one would or should have extra media prepped ready for them or a properly cycled tank. I have a couple extra sponge filters in my tanks for an instant QT or hospital tank. New tank and constant w/c's for a new person who doesnt know their tap water with new discus could be a recipe for disaster unless they are familiar and have been successful with this process. It sounds as though you may be experienced with the planted tank but be careful with the new discus advice.:) It all depends on the level of the person who is starting with their new discus hobby. I did as you suggest when I started and killed 20 discus because I didnt understand my water. Kirk has it right, be patient, do it right and you will run into less stress with happy and healthy discus.

Also, when discus are purchased they are ususally placed into an uncycled QT tank and water is changed on a regualr basis. This is another thing you could do.

[mmorris]

I recommend you check out the sponsors on the British forums for a good source of discus. BIDKA is an excellent place to start. You may be able to buy a cycled sponge from the sponsor. If you are buying juvies, I highly recommend you grow them out first in a barebottom tank. It's very difficult to keep the water quality up in a planted tank. I, personally, wouldn't get less than six discus. They want the security in numbers and there will be enough of them to spread the aggression around.

[bs6749]

Ummmm, nope.:o Should not do this. "Usually" one would or should have extra media prepped ready for them or a properly cycled tank. I have a couple extra sponge filters in my tanks for an instant QT or hospital tank. New tank and constant w/c's for a new person who doesnt know their tap water with new discus could be a recipe for disaster unless they are familiar and have been successful with this process. It sounds as though you may be experienced with the planted tank but be careful with the new discus advice.:) It all depends on the level of the person who is starting with their new discus hobby. I did as you suggest when I started and killed 20 discus because I didnt understand my water. Kirk has it right, be patient, do it right and you will run into less stress with happy and healthy discus.


By definition a QT tank shouldn't have anything in it from previous tanks such as filter media, which could house pathogens that may be stressful to the newcomers. It should be a new tank and one that hasn't been used before, though this really isn't practical to buy a new tank everytime you get new fish. That's why people often clean it with KMnO4/PP or another ocidizing agent.

I understand what you are saying about having a couple of seeded sponge filters on hand and it's a method I also use when starting a new tank.

I don't see anything wrong with putting discus into an uncycled tank with plants and doing regular water changes. Your arguement might be "well, what happens when you can't do a water change?" and that's a valid concern, but if someone is able to stay on top of their water quality and have 0/0/<10ppm then there is nothing wrong with adding discus right away.

Another thing that I should have mentioned is that Prime can be used to condition the water so that the ammonia is converted into unharmful ammonium, which the bacteria and plants can still consume. You may have to dose every other day but you should be changing out 5-10 gallons that often at least and that should keep the ammonia, nitrites, and nitrates down.

Yet another thing you could do is to make sure you have an acidic pH around 5.0-6.5. This will help the ammonia turn into ammonium. You can do this with a substrate called ADA Amazonia or Amazonia II. It does an excellent job buffering the water near 5.5, it removes some hardness (lowers GH) from the water, and it helps plants to grow because most plants would prefer an acidic water as nutrients are taken in more easily.

mmoris: I agree that growing out juvies in a bare bottom tank is the way to go, but adding potted plants or having a half bare bottom and half with substrate can be very beneficial for the health and overall growth of the fish.

[mmorris]

I see nothing beneficial about substrate, bs, even a little bit. I don't recommend messing with the ph or adding any more Prime than what is necessary for chlorine removal.

[White Worm]

Like I said, thats fine and dandy that some may have the experience level to do as you suggest but it depends on the level of the hobbyist. Simple...cycle your tank and add fish and then try plants. I understand the concept of QT, PP, prime, etc as I have been keeping discus for years now. I believe we should be giving the basic and easiest ways for a hobbyist in the beginning and then adjust as we find out more about their level of fish keeping or more specifically discus keeping. There is much more to each persons water chemistry coming out of their house tap. Someone surely may be able to do this, I agree, however, most may not clearly understand what it means when you tell them 0/0/<10ppm or to change their water on a regular basis. I know your lingo but there are many who come here who dont. Alot want to do everything at once as I did but it takes steps to learn each area. Discus dont fair well going through any type of cycle, especially young ones and that is what will most likely happen when putting them into an uncycled tank. Unless you have no job or life and can watch it constantly, I would still pass as a newcomer to discus regardless of how many plants are in the tank. We are in the basics for beginners topics.

[bs6749]

I see nothing beneficial about substrate, bs, even a little bit. I don't recommend messing with the ph or adding any more Prime than what is necessary for chlorine removal.

I also don't think that pH shoud be adjusted, but there is a difference between buffering it at a STABLE and ACIDIC pH and constantly changing it from alkaline to acidic conditions. Granted, discus that aren't wilds do not NEED an acidic pH, however if you spoke with a biologist and chemist, most of them would agree that there are benefits to keeping a stable and acidic pH. From the biologist's point of view the acidic water would inhibit harmful bacteria from growing in the tank which could thrive in alkaline conditions. From the point of view of a chemist the ammonia would be turned into unharmful ammonium. Having water that is acidic isn't necessary. I'm not going to argue that. However, keeping it stable with a substrate such as the one I mentioned can have great benefits for a discus keeper, especially a beginner. There is more room for error with a buffered tank.

Also keep in mind that a substrate would provide a substantial amount more surface area for the nitrifying bacteria to live and grow. This means that if the tank is overfed or neglected the ammonia that is built up will more quickly be turned into nitrite, then into nitrate, then used by plants and your discus won't be affected.


Like I said, thats fine and dandy that some may have the experience level to do as you suggest but it depends on the level of the hobbyist. Simple...cycle your tank and add fish and then try plants. I understand the concept of QT, PP, prime, etc as I have been keeping discus for years now. I believe we should be giving the basic and easiest ways for a hobbyist in the beginning and then adjust as we find out more about their level of fish keeping or more specifically discus keeping. There is much more to each persons water chemistry coming out of their house tap. Someone surely may be able to do this, I agree, however, most may not clearly understand what it means when you tell them 0/0/<10ppm or to change their water on a regular basis. I know your lingo but there are many who come here who dont. Alot want to do everything at once as I did but it takes steps to learn each area. Discus dont fair well going through any type of cycle, especially young ones and that is what will most likely happen when putting them into an uncycled tank. Unless you have no job or life and can watch it constantly, I would still pass as a newcomer to discus regardless of how many plants are in the tank.

Fair enough, you are entitled to your opinion and I repect it! I'm not trying to argue with you, only inform the OP that there are "other options" out there... options that have worked for me with things as delicate as discus and high grade crystal red/black shrimp without any ill effects.

I'm not trying to poke at you but you say that my method is "complicated" basically and I don't understand the reasoning behind it. If you put low light plants such as anubias, Java fern, etc. in a tank you can have an "instant cycle" without having to do anything else really. You'd still have to check the ammonia, nitrites, and nitrates just like you should during the fishless cycle and you aren't adding any ferts or anything because they are removing the wastes from the water provided by uneaten food and fish excrement. I don't see how this is more complicated. Higher light plants would be better at removing wastes, but would be much more work, requiring ferts ans CO2 I'll agree with that.

[White Worm]

Well, thats why this is a community of hobbyists. Each has their own approach and nothing is ever the rule. Each person can read all this info and do as they choose. I wouldnt say your ideas are complicated. It can be difficult to do discus and plants depending on the age of the discus and the level of the hobbyists experience. All you state is more than possible. No arguement here :)

[Eddie]

Alrighteeee then, where did this go off to. I think the guy wanted some advice on buying discus, not how to keep an aquarium. I'm pretty sure he knows something about keeping tropical fish, if not then that's something that will happen REALLY fast.

Don't get the fish from the LFS, if there is even a thought that there is disease in even one tank, its already spread to the other tanks. Wait it out and check out some other spots. Until then, cycle your tank with the ammonia as others mentioned.

Eddie

[Graemevw]

Yep, ill keep cycling the tank, i wont even add a single tetra untill the tank can deal with ammonia and nitrite.

As for any experience i have, im 31 and have been keeping tropical and colwater fish on and off since i was 10 i guess.

Mainly basic comunity tanks but the last tank i had was a 4 foot planted tank. I wish i had photo's of that tank, looked stunning but was alot of work.
Probably not as much work as the discus will be though :)

Maybe ill stay clear of the discus in this shop.

Its a very well regarded shop, a discus specialist. They have been recomended as a source of high quality discus on a few other discus forums.

They get their fish mainly from nura discus in penang, they also get fish from top breeders, they are not your usual LFS.

[Hattawi]

I did not cycle my tank at all. I don't know if its cycled even. All I do is change 50% of the water daily, and I'll probably continue to do that even if it gets cycled.

[Eddie]

I did not cycle my tank at all. I don't know if its cycled even. All I do is change 50% of the water daily, and I'll probably continue to do that even if it gets cycled.

It will cycle but it will take forever. Cycling with Discus is stressful for the fish but if you are doing 50% daily it may be okay just monitor them. I'd definitely have some prime on hand in the event of a high nitrite emergency.

Eddie

[kirkp]

Graemevw, If they've been recommended like you say, they probably know what they're doing. I personally wouldn't be afraid to buy discus from a LFS depending on the circumstances. My guess is that there are plenty of discus dealer/breeders out there that are not sponsors of this site. Not everyone has a sponsor close to them or can necessarily afford to ship the discus in. That being said, I would recommend buying from a sponsor if at all possible.

Kirk

[jabuc]

I would use Bio-Spira...awesome stuff! add this in with the fish. I have been using it for years. Yes it really does work.

http://www.aquariumplants.com/Bio_Spira_s/47.htm