water temp young fish?...

[Triadtropz]

what is the best water temp for young discus?...84or 86?

[GrillMaster]

85...;) :D :D

[bs6749]

I'd think that to a certain point the higher the better. With an increased temp comes increased metabolism so you should feed more nutritious foods more often. Depending on how large the fish are anywhere from 5 down to 3 feedings per day will be your goal.

[mmorris]

85...;) :D :D

Yup, and 6-8 feedings per day for very young discus.

[bs6749]

I've seen studies done that say more than 5 feedings per day is not beneficial and can actually be detrimental to the health of the fry. I forget exacty why the reasons were but it was suggested no more than 5 feedings per day.

[mmorris]

If you find the source would you post it? I'd be interested.

[Triadtropz]

thanks for the responses,...I got ten fish in yesterday, temps at 85. they look ok but havent started eating yet...im offering them bloodworms and good flake?..it was a long flight..

[bs6749]

I believe the info I heard was along the lines of more feedings isn't better because more than 4-5 feedings tend to be left unfinished. It also went on to say that fry grown under 24 hour lighting with many feedings grew at a slower rate, most likely due to a higher metabolism from being more active. The study involved game fish and not discus so take it with a grain of salt. I still believe that more than 5 feedings does little for the development of the fry.

[mmorris]

Could you reference the article please? If the problem is that food is left uneaten, then too much is being fed.

Looking forward to pics, Triad!

[Eddie]

I believe the info I heard was along the lines of more feedings isn't better because more than 4-5 feedings tend to be left unfinished. It also went on to say that fry grown under 24 hour lighting with many feedings grew at a slower rate, most likely due to a higher metabolism from being more active. The study involved game fish and not discus so take it with a grain of salt. I still believe that more than 5 feedings does little for the development of the fry.


Yeah, not substantial evidence when it comes to raising discus. As practiced by many Asian breededers, discus juveniles are fed well above 10 times a day with huge WCs. The discus will grow to their full potential.

I myself feed 10-12 times a day and trust me, nothing gets left uneaten. If you'd like video footage of it, I can spend all day Saturday recording every feeding and you'll see every fish eat like a wild dog. I do only 90-100% WC everyday so not as much as many Asian breeders but I do have at least an 1 inch or more growth in my fish per month.

;)

[moik]

When you feed younger discus that many times a day, I really think it is a waste of food. The fish metabolism and digestive track can not process and absorbe all the nutients from the food that fast. Try it on yourself once, and see what happens.I keep my water temp around 82F-85F. No higher than that. Keep in mind that it does not matter how many times you feed a day, it only really matters what you feed (atleast 3 times daily). I have never fed more than 4 times a day. I never have any fish that lag behind in growth due to water quality or food nutients. If you feed your fish bloodworms ,flake and color bits 10 times a day, ,and I will feed my fish 3-4 different foods of my choice 3-4 times a day. With the same water change schedule.I can bet you that mine will be in better health and bigger, no doubt in my mind. No live foods either, just think about it .(too much work for the same growth gains and health) Other thing is , if you are looking for good growth gains and fish health, I would not even bother with flake food at all.. I consider bloodworms and brine shrimp treats for the fish only. You have to feed your fish well when you do feed them and do water changes religiously.Not all fish are going to grow and be perfect in size and shape no matter what you feed or how many water changes you do. They were already screwed from birth. I have seen it in my own tanks for the last 8 years plus. Some breeders and hobbiest skip a day completely from feeding their fish with no ill effects. Makes sense, it give the fish time to clear its digestive track. Read that here on simply discus. Everyone has their own little way of doing things, what ever works the best for them.

[ShinShin]

I don't know if there is that big of a difference between 84F and 86F for this subject. Let's say there is a difference for discussion. If there is a difference, it would be due to a faster metabolism the temp. increase has caused. However, with the faster metabolism, it is going to take more feeding by the discus just to maintain itself. Either way, one needs to feed beyond the amount to maintain its metabolism at any temperature to have any effect on growth. What would that amount be?

In all the books that I have read on feeding fry, only Yeng in Penang Discus, 2nd edition, mentions the pitfalls of overfeeding. He recommends 3 times.

Mat

[Eddie]

When you feed younger discus that many times a day, I really think it is a waste of food. The fish metabolism and digestive track can not process and absorbe all the nutients from the food that fast. Try it on yourself once, and see what happens. Keep in mind that it does not matter how many times you feed a day, it only really matters what you feed (atleast 3 times daily). I have never fed more than 4 times a day. I never have any fish that lag behind in growth due to water quality or food nutients. If you feed your fish bloodworms ,flake and color bits 10 times a day, ,and I will feed my fish 3-4 different foods of my choice 3 times a day. With the same water change schedule.I can bet you that mine will be in better health and bigger, no doubt in my mind. No live foods either, just think about it .(too much work for the same growth gains and health) Other thing is , if you are looking for good growth gains and fish health, I would not even bother with flake food at all.. I consider bloodworms and brine shrimp treats for the fish only. You have to feed your fish well when you do feed them and do water changes religiously.Not all fish are going to grow and be perfect in size and shape no matter what you feed or how many water changes you do. They were already screwed from birth. I have seen it in my own tanks for the last 8 years plus. Some breeders and hobbiest skip a day completely from feeding their fish with no ill effects. Makes sense, it give the fish time to clear its digestive track. Read that here on simply discus. Everyone has their own little way of doing things, what ever works the best for them.


That sounds like a competition to me and trust me, you'll lose. I know very well how a humans digestive track works. It depends on many things and alot of genetics. I myself take in about 25 grams of protein every 2 hours to maintain and gain lean body mass, muscle. Thats because the average human can only absorb 25 grams of protein at one time within that period of time. So trying it on myself happens all day every day.

Now with the fish, where is your evidence that a fish cannot absorb that amount of protein in a day? Give me evidence and support your statement. Feed your fish 4 times a day and I'll feed mine 12. If we had fish from the same spawn, I'd win hands down. It will largely depend on how often WCs are performed. So until there is a another simply contest we'll never know. Bloodworms are crap food if you think I feed them to my fish, there are flake foods that have much more protein than whatever you are feeding, I can guarantee.

We all do it our own way, so what works for you will not work for others and vice versa.

Eddie

[bs6749]

Who is to say that all of that protein is necessary for a discus? Too much protein can be hard on a fish too right? Too much of it in a person can ruin kidneys. I'd suspect the same thing could happen in fish.

[Eddie]

Who is to say that all of that protein is necessary for a discus? Too much protein can be hard on a fish too right? Too much of it in a person can ruin kidneys. I'd suspect the same thing could happen in fish.

Very true, thats why humans needs to consume large amounts of water to allow the processing of protein and not kill your kidneys. We can develop kidney stones. I don't think fish have a problem with water consumption. LOL

Eddie

[Eddie]

A little statement from someone who might know something about Discus.


Hi guys,

I just wanted to ad: I visited several breeders in Taiwan, which were having discus - tank raised ones - with almost 30 cm (12 inches) across, real giants, much larger than any wild wild ever grow.

But they did not only get this (monster)size by selective breeding, but mainly by 100 percent water change twice a day and - constant - feeding of the young during growth, about 16-time-daily.

But more about this and plenty of photos in my upcoming volume II (again with over 3000 photos...).

All the best

Heiko Bleher
www.aquapress-bleher.com
www.aqua-aquapress.com


Cheers

[ShinShin]

In studies done, a the ideal % of protein for a discus is 50%. More is just excreted with metabolic waste.

Mat

[Eddie]

In studies done, a the ideal % of protein for a discus is 50%. More is just excreted with metabolic waste.

Mat

Right Matt but how much of that high protein content food do they need to have throughout the day? How much can they absorb in what period of time? If they can constantly absorb the protein, because their metabolism is running non-stop due to high temps. Could we feed them all day long?

I would like to see some studies on that one.

Eddie

[ShinShin]

Sometime I wish I kept things. Several years ago we had a great thread going on one of the forums, breaking all this down. A microbiologist from work even broke down the energy that was produced. All I needed to know for myself was 50% was the target %, and that's all I remember. Maybe Al remembers more. It was some time back

Mat

[bs6749]

High protein diets may cause fish to grow faster, but how long do they live compared to fish that have "normal" amounts of protien, i.e similar amounts to what they'd get in the wild. People can and will develop kidney disease if their diets consist of too much protein. It's not a matter of how much water is available for the kidneys to process the protein, it's the AMOUNT of protein taken in.

[Eddie]

High protein diets may cause fish to grow faster, but how long do they live compared to fish that have "normal" amounts of protien, i.e similar amounts to what they'd get in the wild. People can and will develop kidney disease if their diets consist of too much protein. It's not a matter of how much water is available for the kidneys to process the protein, it's the AMOUNT of protein taken in.

You are right about how much, but again it leads to how much, how often. For example...me, I weigh about 165 punds. I need to consume 1-1.5 grams of protein per pound of body weight to gain or even maintain any muscle mass. The only way to properly absorb this large amount of protein is to take in small amounts, 25 grams at a time, throughout the day. If I ate 3 chicken breasts in one sitting, my body will only absorb 1 of those chicken breasts and the other 2 would just get compounded into excess calories. Free calories that would put weight on me, but not add to my muscle mass. Now, if a fish eats almost til he explodes, I am sure not all of that protein will get adequately absorbed by the fish. If we break that amount down and feed them throughout the day, the fish can probably process more amounts of that protein.

Just a theory that some are actually attempting. Like in Taiwan as Heiko mentioned

Eddie

[ShinShin]

I do have a feeling that discus do not metabolize food as we do. Discus don't eat a square meal 3,4,5 times a day. Some days they are lucky to eat once. They forage constantly, and when the hit a bonanza, their stomachs are designed to stretch, allowing them to gorge.

Mat

[Eddie]

I do have a feeling that discus do not metabolize food as we do. Discus don't eat a square meal 3,4,5 times a day. Some days they are lucky to eat once. They forage constantly, and when the hit a bonanza, their stomachs are designed to stretch, allowing them to gorge.

Mat


Here is an interesting read Matt.

http://docserver.ingentaconnect.com/deliver/connect/aibs/00063568/v52n9/s16.pdf?expires=1231382005&id=48077148&titleid=479&accname=Guest+User&checksum=C33601A6E830F4A5058AF92F137C7EB4

[bs6749]

Eddie, I know what you are saying and you are right. I think my brother (a pharmacist) said people can absorb about 30 grams at a time so it's pointless to take in more than that to gain muscle mass like you are talking about.

Mat, you make a good point about their stomachs being able to stretch and being "designed" for such an occurence in nature. However, these events are far less common than in the hobby where you have breeders filling their discus with high protein foods up to 16 times per day! THAT can't be good for a fish IMO. I'd wager that those same fish do have fast growth rates but at the same time they are short lived compared to a discus with a moderate intake of protein. It's less strain on the kidneys and digestive system. Of course, it is only speculation on my end and I have no evidence to support it.

I'd like to see a 10-12 year long study that compares a brood of 50 or so discus split into two groups that each receive identical environmental conditions but have one fed high protein foods many times a day and have the other fed a more balanced diet or something similar to what they'd get in the wild. I am confident that there would be a difference between the groups.

[Eddie]

Eddie, I know what you are saying and you are right. I think my brother (a pharmacist) said people can absorb about 30 grams at a time so it's pointless to take in more than that to gain muscle mass like you are talking about.

Mat, you make a good point about their stomachs being able to stretch and being "designed" for such an occurence in nature. However, these events are far less common than in the hobby where you have breeders filling their discus with high protein foods up to 16 times per day! THAT can't be good for a fish IMO. I'd wager that those same fish do have fast growth rates but at the same time they are short lived compared to a discus with a moderate intake of protein. It's less strain on the kidneys and digestive system. Of course, it is only speculation on my end and I have no evidence to support it.

I'd like to see a 10-12 year long study that compares a brood of 50 or so discus split into two groups that each receive identical environmental conditions but have one fed high protein foods many times a day and have the other fed a more balanced diet or something similar to what they'd get in the wild. I am confident that there would be a difference between the groups.

I would like to see also, in fact, that is all I am gonna do for the rest of my discus keeping. Since I will surely have 10+ years to go in my discus career, LOL, I am going to stick to my 10-12 feedings a day with high WCs. I used to feed my fish 4 times a day and sure my fish grew but not like my fish now. Before I even read about Heiko's discovery I took it upon myself to feed my fish every chance I got, as long as their still not full from the last feed. This does affect my water quality but I am doing 90% WCs daily. My fish now, besides the wilds, are growing at an alarming rate.

I do believe you are correct about the shorter life span but how much can be debated. Once their growing slows down and they become adults, obviously the feedings will change.

[moik]

A strictly high protien diet is not good for any living thing. I see my friend that is a professional body builder with several titles. Along with his wife that competes also. I have talked to him in the past about what he does during the year and when he is getting ready for competition, diet wise. This guy eats 18 large eggs for breakfast (NO BS)Very different diets. That is humans from his aspect. "Some" commercial discus breeders are raising and feeding for fast growth gains with a time schedule kept in mind. Investment cost being one of the main factors verses profit. A breeders water quality might be very poor in their area to warrant 2-3 large water changes day. No one will ever know that. When someone feeds their fish an excessive amount of times a day ,the fish's droppings look like the food that was fed with a different shape to it. Feeding that much food a day dispersed into the water must have a negative effect on water quality. Hence the high amount of water to be changed daily. Keeping water quality to its peak quality is an utmost concern for raising young fish up.I used to feed insanely in the past. Just a thing I learnt through experience not to do anymore.Here is the only pellet food I feed guaranteed analysis straight from the package sticker--Crude protein 55% / Crude fat 15% ?Crude fiber 5% /moisture 10% / and a whole array of trace minerals and etc. I would not feed that pellet unless the crude fat is atleast 10% of the protein value(percentage). There are a ton of commercially prepared foods on the market that are simply "Snake oil tonics". High protien diets are good as long as there is a good crude fat and trace mineral content too. Growing fish need alot of minerals and a crude fat content to grow good bones and gill plates to go along with the muscle and flesh content from a high protein diet. As for a competition with the same batch of fish, how we would get the same batch fish on two different sides of the world? I have been through the off the shelf super food experience in the long past before. Less feedings a day(3-4) with quality foods will produce better results with healthier fish. (my experiences) Sorry to derail the thread.

[moik]

A 12 inch discus. 8 inches is considered very large today. Have not seen any like that in the last 5years atleast. Would love to seen them. They grew fast and big, but did not have their health to keep them alive. If common discus grew that big , I would only own a very few. Could you claim them on your taxes like kids? LOLOL

[Eddie]

Sounds good, we won't be on other sides of the world forever. Surely we can work something out. We will see in the future as I am working on a few things on my end.

Your pellet food sounds good, I use flake better than your pellet though. Also, homemade mixes are the key. I make all my own food from a nice variety of ingredients, mainly raw tuna.

And again, we already went over the fact that what works for some may not work for others. 10-12 times a day with close to 100% WCs everyday is working for me. I am sure your regiment is working well for your discus. It all boils down to those goals.


Eddie

[Eddie]

And if you wan to give your fish an even better feed, which I cannot get here in Japan. Go for this

http://www.oceannutrition.com/product_marine.php?file=ba11.html&head=04

Cheers!;)

Don't say I didnt tell you

[moik]

One of the foods I feed is Ocean Plankton, which I have not heard anyone else uses. Very high in Lipids for the fish. My whole and only point in this conversation was just feeding the right foods with as little ill effect on water quality. Constant feeding goes along with water quality deteration on a faster scale caused of all the food being dispersed in the water plkus the fish's waste. Less feedings with quality foods with half of the work. Water quality is maintained at a higher level of constant water quality with less contamination from excessive feedings. The breeders are feeding 10 plus times a day with 2- 100% water changes daily. Feeding twice as much and doing twice the water change volume too. Two days worth of food and water in one. Just with the thought if the fish can absorbe all these nutrients fast enough.Pretty much the same gains in growth in the same amount of time with less headache.

[Eddie]

One of the foods I feed is Ocean Plankton, which I have not heard anyone else uses. Very high in Lipids for the fish. My whole and only point in this conversation was just feeding the right foods with as little ill effect on water quality. Constant feeding goes along with water quality deteration on a faster scale caused of all the food being dispersed in the water plkus the fish's waste. Less feedings with quality foods with half of the work. Water quality is maintained at a higher level of constant water quality with less contamination from excessive feedings. The breeders are feeding 10 plus times a day with 2- 100% water changes daily. Feeding twice as much and doing twice the water change volume too. Two days worth of food and water in one. Just with the thought if the fish can absorbe all these nutrients fast enough.Pretty much the same gains in growth in the same amount of time with less headache.

Right, I understand your point. Why not give them quality foods all day long and maintain water quality with large WCs. ;)

Eddie

[Triadtropz]

what is the best water temp for young discus?...84or 86?

it's day 3 and the fish still arent eating right,...the fish are about half dollar size. and otherwise look ok,..temp 85, ph 6.8,ammonia 0 nitrates 0 any recommendations?..

[bs6749]

What are you trying to feed them and what WERE they eating before you got them?

[Triadtropz]

What are you trying to feed them and what WERE they eating before you got them?

Im trying to feed them bloodworms,brine shrimp, and quality flake,..the guy said they were eating bloodworms, and tetrabits,and beefheart. my LFS has no tetrabits,or beefheart..Im gonna go to the next town to a big fish store. and see if they have the tetra bits and some beefheart.

[Eddie]

Im trying to feed them bloodworms,brine shrimp, and quality flake,..the guy said they were eating bloodworms, and tetrabits,and beefheart. my LFS has no tetrabits,or beefheart..Im gonna go to the next town to a big fish store. and see if they have the tetra bits and some beefheart.


I would just give them a little time to settle, sometimes a week to get them settled in. Bring the temp up to 88 for a while to encourage their appetite. Once they are settled in and eating you can bring them back down to 86. I like to keep the temp around 86.

Eddie

[moik]

If you do not mind me asking, what strain of fish are these? Did you get these fish from a sponsor here on Simply?

[Triadtropz]

If you do not mind me asking, what strain of fish are these? Did you get these fish from a sponsor here on Simply?

they are red turks and pigeon bloods..I got them on aquabid. they seem to be starting to eat a bit..