WC effect shape?

[Yassmeena]

Hi all,

I have a question that I hope is not highlighting a lack of basic discus knowledge on my part.

I know that water conditions and water changes are important for maintain the health of a discus, but do they also have an effect on discus shape (roundness)? I thought shape was something established early on in life, kind of like the shape of our nose for example?

[Graham]

Good husbandry will give you a nice fish...good genetics will give you a round fish


Your nose isn't something that your mother decided on...the X & Y did that:)

[Darren's Discus]

Water chemistry is very important to the development of young discus especially in the first 6 weeks of growth and can definately affect shape.


cheers

[Graham]

Darren can you really make a silk purse out of a pigs ear ;)

[Eddie]

Water chemistry is very important to the development of young discus especially in the first 6 weeks of growth and can definately affect shape.


cheers

Darren is right. I have seen people on here have really negative affects on discus fry due to water quality or lack of minerals in the water. I have also seen some below average pairs produce fry that when they grew to adult size, they had outdone their parents in size color and shape. Was it the way the juvenile discus were raised from the start? Water quality and diet were the key element that impacted the development of those discus :)

Eddie

[Bobears]

Nice... a nature vs. nurture debate. Curious to see how this comes out.

[Bobears]

Seriously I'd like to hear this.

We all know:

Good genes+good water= good discus
Good genes+bad water= a discus
Bad genes+ good water= ok discus
Bad genes+bad water= dead discus

[bluesky5683]

Seriously I'd like to hear this.

We all know:

Good genes+good water= good discus
Good genes+bad water= a discus
Bad genes+ good water= ok discus
Bad genes+bad water= dead discus

Bobears, the last one is so damn funny. at the beginning i thought u gonna say bad discus, lolx...

[Darren's Discus]

Darren can you really make a silk purse out of a pigs ear ;)
Graham,
If the silk purse is not given the best conditions it could turn out to be nothing more than a cotton shopping bag !:D
seriously even the best genetics will not save a fish exposed to poor water quality as it will produce deformed fins and gills which both affect the shape of the fish.


cheers

[Yassmeena]

Seems like there is general agreement that the time during which water quality has the greatest impact is during the first couple of weeks of life.

What about later on, when the discus is say, adolescent? (8 mo - 1.5 yrs)

[Graham]

It doesn't matter what you do you can't make a football into a basketball....you can mess them up and you can dress them up but you can't change the genetics of the fish...

See it all the time in the koi hobby where a show fish, a tategoi is turned into a nice fish. The body will still be there but everything else is gone.


The opposite is also true .... tatshita given lustre, depth of colour etc but has no body since it wasn't there to begin with...it's still tateshita

[brewmaster15]

I'm not sure how much the simple act of changing water at a certain interval can affect shape, but it definitely has the potential to affect health and that can affect how well a fish utilizes the resources its is given for growth... I think what it may ultimately do is affect the full potential of what ever shape a fish was genetically programmed to be capable of.

I understand where Graham is coming from in that Genetics themselves can not be changed by environment at their base levels...He's spot on there... but I also think its not that simple in application.. Theres a huge interest these days in how environmental factors affect the actual expression of Genes....Everything from what we eat to where we live.... So in actuality the genetics may be fixed....but its expression may be dependent on environment in many cases.... This has been found to be true in many areas of biology.

A search on this "environmental+impact+expression+genetics"

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&hs=q4I&sa=X&oi=spell&resnum=1&ct=result&cd=1&q=environmental%2Bimpact%2Bexpression%2Bgenetics&spell=1

Gives some interesting insight on the subject...I'm not a genetics expert...just thought I'd mention it...I should also qualify this by saying I haven't seen any literature that links water changes to fish shape...yet;):)..but I did find one that was of interest to people...

http://www.marksdailyapple.com/genetic-expression-geography/

anyhow..I do water changes for water quality and healthy development of the fish..I've seen fish develop poorly when I slack on them like Darren mentioned.

take care,
al

[Rod]

I agree with the good water produces a better shape opinion, but i'd also like to add that another important, if not more important point, is parasite control in juvie discus. A discus burdened by parasites grows slower and with less body depth than a perfectly raised discus. No matter how good the water, if you are battling disease in the first 6 weeks then your discus will never develop to full potential.

IMO the 3 keys to great discus are water, food and disease control. If any one of these are lacking then the outcome will be lesser quality.

Rod :)

[Eddie]

I agree with the good water produces a better shape opinion, but i'd also like to add that another important, if not more important point, is parasite control in juvie discus. A discus burdened by parasites grows slower and with less body depth than a perfectly raised discus. No matter how good the water, if you are battling disease in the first 6 weeks then your discus will never develop to full potential.

IMO the 3 keys to great discus are water, food and disease control. If any one of these are lacking then the outcome will be lesser quality.

Rod :)

Good call Rod! That is definitely good to know. Even in juvenile discus that have past 6 weeks suffer some set backs. Having to medicate really doesn't let you focus on the intense feedings and WCs. JMO

Eddie

[Graham]

As I stated way back in the beginning...good husbandry will give you good discus. Lets use another word here....Good husbandry will allow any particular fish to reach it's maximum ''potential''. The best it can be based on its genetics.

If Mom and Dad are mass produced pet store footballs, then the odds are pretty damn good that junior isn't going to be a 7'' round show fish. He doesn't have the potential within him.

We maybe able to destroy potential in a show quality or a round fish with poor husbandry, but we can't make a round or a show quality fish if that potential wasn't there in the 1st place.

G

[Eddie]

As I stated way back in the beginning...good husbandry will give you good discus. Lets use another word here....Good husbandry will allow any particular fish to reach it's maximum ''potential''. The best it can be based on its genetics.

If Mom and Dad are mass produced pet store footballs, then the odds are pretty damn good that junior isn't going to be a 7'' round show fish. He doesn't have the potential within him.

We maybe able to destroy potential in a show quality or a round fish with poor husbandry, but we can't make a round or a show quality fish if that potential wasn't there in the 1st place.

G

Right Graham, but you are talking about mutations, not discus in general. Discus are genetically round, otherwise they would called severums or gouramis. ;)

Eddie