Newbie questions

[marchmaxima]

Hi

I have some questions that I haven't really found answers for when reading the stickies and Beginner index articles. Sorry in advance if they have been addressed before and I just missed them. Details of my intended set up are at the bottom.

It appears that people generally-speaking buy juveniles at around 2-3 inches, and if I am reading correctly it is generally not recommended to buy juvies less than 2 inches unless you really know what you're doing (which I obviously don't). Assume in my final setup I want 8-10 discus fish in a 120G.

1. Are there forseeable problems or issues in buying 10 x 3-inch juvie discus and allowing them to grow out in a 120G gallon bare bottom tank. Assume that they are on their own until adulthood.
2. How many inches does the fish need to be to be considered an adult?
3. How long does it take to grow out a discus from 3 inches to adult? (I suppose it probably depends on the strain, but a rough idea would be good)

I have a plan to keep a barrel or container of some kind to prepare/age/heat water for PWCs.

3. Does this need storage container need to be food-grade?

Target setup:

I have a 4 x 2 x 2 beauty that is sitting empty in my garage which I bought because I wanted to work my way towards a planted discus setup. I am aware that this quite advanced, so I'm not in a hurry to get there. I would prefer to have happy long-living discus, and I will build the tank around the requirements of the discus, whatever that means and I am very willing to take on any suggestions.

Thanks in advance.

[White Worm]

Hi


It appears that people generally-speaking buy juveniles at around 2-3 inches, and if I am reading correctly it is generally not recommended to buy juvies less than 2 inches unless you really know what you're doing (which I obviously don't). Assume in my final setup I want 8-10 discus fish in a 120G. Yes, if you dont have much experience with discus, a 2.5-3 discus is a good place to start

1. Are there forseeable problems or issues in buying 10 x 3-inch juvie discus and allowing them to grow out in a 120G gallon bare bottom tank. Assume that they are on their own until adulthood. I would split the tank with a divider with young discus at first because they may get lost in a large tank like that and feel a little insecure until they settle in and grow.
2. How many inches does the fish need to be to be considered an adult? Adulthood is not measured in inches but age...An adult is usually around a year old
3. How long does it take to grow out a discus from 3 inches to adult? (I suppose it probably depends on the strain, but a rough idea would be good) Again, cant go buy size...some grow more than others. An adult around 1 year old has done most of its growing

I have a plan to keep a barrel or container of some kind to prepare/age/heat water for PWCs.

3. Does this need storage container need to be food-grade?

Target setup:

I have a 4 x 2 x 2 beauty that is sitting empty in my garage which I bought because I wanted to work my way towards a planted discus setup. I am aware that this quite advanced, so I'm not in a hurry to get there. I would prefer to have happy long-living discus, and I will build the tank around the requirements of the discus, whatever that means and I am very willing to take on any suggestions. Start out with a BB tank, lots of food, lots of clean water, lots of food and lots of clean water :D Keep it simple. You can decorate and make it your show tank as they get older or there are many ways to make a BB tank look nice.

Thanks in advance.

Hope that helps

[marchmaxima]

Hope that helps

Thanks, it certainly does. Will definitely use a divider. Thanks for clearing up the age issue.

I definitely get the lots of clean water message. It's this message that has stopped me from setting up the tank now. I have to travel to the USA in May (for the whole month) and given the required maintenance during the grow out phase, I would not dare consider leaving it in the hands of others while I'm gone. I think it's best for me, the discus and the house/cat sitters to leave the actual build until June when I'm back.

In the meantime, I have 6 months to aquire more and more knowledge and think though some plans. Hopefully by the time I get back, I'll feel edumacated. :D

[Eddie]

I second everything WW said. The 120 is gonna be alot of extra work for you though. Putting a tank divider will not prevent build of slime in the whole tank. You will need to regularly wipe down all of the tank, sides and bottom. The many feedings and fish waste contribute to the slime. So if you don't mind the extra work, go for the gold.

Good luck with everything
Eddie

[marchmaxima]

You will need to regularly wipe down all of the tank, sides and bottom. The many feedings and fish waste contribute to the slime. So if you don't mind the extra work, go for the gold.

I'm totally expecting this. I have a feeling I'm in for the daily water changes and tank wiping every 2-3 days for until growing out time is over. That's fine. If that's what it takes, that's what it takes. If I end up with a happy healthy group of discus, I'll be rewarded 10 times over.

[Eddie]

I'm totally expecting this. I have a feeling I'm in for the daily water changes and tank wiping every 2-3 days for until growing out time is over. That's fine. If that's what it takes, that's what it takes. If I end up with a happy healthy group of discus, I'll be rewarded 10 times over.


For sure Sharon, totally understandable. Can't wait to see pics when you get everything together. I am a picture Junky!


Take care
Eddie

[marchmaxima]

Well, there's a long way to paradise, but here's the plane ticket.

http://www.sharoncarpenter.com/Images/4x2x2.jpg

And FWIW, here is a pic of my 15g

http://www.sharoncarpenter.com/Images/180808a.jpg

[Eddie]

That is a nice little 15 Gallon, can't wait to see the new one set-up.

Eddie

[marchmaxima]

Next question.

What would be better for the Discus?

1. A single canister filter. I'm tossing up between a Rena X3 and an Ehiem Classic 2217
2. Two canister filters that give the equvallent or more lph in flow rate.
3. Something else.

Option 2 yeilds obvious benefits such as redundancy. Are there any other benefits to justify the cost in terms of discus?

In the event of a disaster, I do have a Jebo 825 on my 15G planted I could use. This wouldn't leave the 15G without a seeded filter. My 15G used to have a Fluval 2 Plus internal guy and I always keep filter media for it in the Jebo just in case something happens to the Jebo or I need to set up an emergency QT.

[Eddie]

If you are gonna be growing out your discus in the 120, which is a little large, not a problem..why don't you just go with 2 sponge filters. Way cheaper to run and super easy to maintain, SUPER EASY. Probably like 2 Azoo 10s and thats it, nothing else. Well...aside from the heaters ;)

Eddie

[TankWatcher]

That a very beautiful little 15G planted tank you have going. Welcome to the world of discus, even if you don't plan to take the plunge till May.

I haven't had either the Rena or the Eheim Classic 2217. I have heard nothing but good things about the 2217 though. From what I hear, you can't go wrong.

I have 2 x Eheim Pro II 2028's running on a planted 138G & if anything, I'd like a little more flow. I don't know what the difference in gph is between mine & the 2217's is, but thought this might help figure out what would be enough for your tank.

[mmorris]

Well, there's a long way to paradise, but here's the plane ticket.


I love the quote! :)
I'm running two Eheim 2217s and a sponge filter on my bb 125 gal. tank with 12 adults.

[marchmaxima]

If you are gonna be growing out your discus in the 120, which is a little large, not a problem..why don't you just go with 2 sponge filters.

I'll have to grow them out in that Eddie. I don't have another tank for them, and I can try to sell the idea to the hubby, but I have a good idea of the battles I can win and those I can't. Another tank of the size we're talking about isn't one of those battles :D

Good idea on the sponge filters. I actually hadn't considered that.


That a very beautiful little 15G planted tank you have going.

Thank you!


I have 2 x Eheim Pro II 2028's running on a planted 138G & if anything, I'd like a little more flow. I don't know what the difference in gph is between mine & the 2217's is, but thought this might help figure out what would be enough for your tank.

The 2217's advertised flow rate is 1000lph. Eheim Pro II 2028 is advertised at 850lph. I think when I do get a canister for it, it'll be the classic.

[Eddie]

Yup, a couple of Azoo Oxygen Plus 10's and a single airpump. That's all the filtration you'll need. The 10's are BIG, too big for my 55 but will go perfectly in a 120.

HTH
Eddie

[mikel]

Sharon: Here's another wrench to throw into your mental mix for even more confusion!!!

Considering how big that 129 G is, and the huge amount of physical labor, and quite frankly, the limits of that labor given the size of the job. Why not consider the following for a longer term prospect...

If you are planning on getting 10 juvies, the chances of you having at least several pairs is quite high, to say the least. So, when you get your little fish, why not grow them out in a smaller, more manageable tank. Young juvies require frequent feeding and clean water to maintain their health, appetite and growth rate. So, a 55 or even a 75 wouldnt be too small, and far more manageable. You can get all the fancy equipment, and run them in the 55 or 75 (no such thing as over-filtration)...and once the juvies reach a certain size in about 8-10 months from your date of purchase, you can set up that ginormous tank (plants and all) for your display. By then, you may see some pairs forming...you may keep two pairs, and now use the 55 gallon, get a tank divider, and voila, two breeding sections. throw in some simple air driven filter mechanism for each compartment and you are off...

Final result after about a year, as I imagine for you...

1) One giant, planted and beautiful display tank with fully grown discus who are not hitched...

2) One nice sized alternative tank, split by a divider in the middle with two pairs occupying each wing...and hopefully wigglers:D....

3) That little 15 gallon will come in handy as a hospital tank and/or quarantine tank for any new purchases beyond the first 10 juvies. Believe me, if history is any guide, you will have more juvies beyond the first 10....

4) Wherever you wish to go with this crazy hobby of yours:)....

Just a suggestion..

Mike

[marchmaxima]

Thanks Mike. I appreciate the thoughts and ideas.

Hmmmmm. I've gone form one tank to three recently. Selling the idea to the husband that a 4th is a good idea will be a difficult sell, if not impossible :D

But you have some extremely valid points there and I'll definitrly give them some serious thought. Allowing any pairs to breed and raising wrigglers is not a thought that even occured to me....

I had already planned of having the 15G as a QT after the introduction of the main tank. The 7 rasboras in there are getting quite old now and I'd be surprised if they lasted another 12 months. The ottos could be moved to the display tank.

Perhaps if I "lose" the 15g to QT status, so it effectively becomes unused in case of emergency and say a 3-footer is to "replace" that, then perhaps we could make an idea like that work without as much matrimonial resistance followed by a divorce ;)

Defintely got some thinking to do.

[Eddie]

Perhaps if I "lose" the 15g to QT status, so it effectively becomes unused in case of emergency and say a 3-footer is to "replace" that, then perhaps we could make an idea like that work without as much matrimonial resistance followed by a divorce ;)

Defintely got some thinking to do.


Oh, trust me....everybody is thinking about that stuff! Best thing to do, get your hubby involved! ;) As long as my wife isn't cleaning the tanks, she loves em. :D


Eddie

[DiscussDiscus]

Hospital and QT tanks certainly don't count towards your overall tank count :)

Regards,
Lee

[Eddie]

Hospital and QT tanks certainly don't count towards your overall tank count :)

Regards,
Lee

HAHAHA LOL, thats what I tell my wife! She says...well whats the difference between a QT tank and that big 55.....I say nothing I can use a 55 to medicate! :D

Eddie

[marchmaxima]

Best thing to do, get your hubby involved! ;)


Oh, I've tried that... As soon as I start talking tanks/fish, I can see a hazy glaze forming over the retinas. Within 20 seconds, he's sleeping with his eyes open... :)

[Eddie]

Oh, I've tried that... As soon as I start talking tanks/fish, I can see a hazy glaze forming over the retinas. Within 20 seconds, he's sleeping with his eyes open... :)

Just let him pick a few of the colors he likes, it will be over then. He'll take ownership I can gaurantee. Next thing you know, he'll be on here!

Eddie

[Owl]

Just read this interesting thread and agree whoeheartedly with White Worms advice, CLEAN water and a STABLE pH is the key to successful discus keeping.

Good Luck with your plans Sharon !

[roadracr]

Next question.

What would be better for the Discus?

1. A single canister filter. I'm tossing up between a Rena X3 and an Ehiem Classic 2217
2. Two canister filters that give the equvallent or more lph in flow rate.
3. Something else.

Option 2 yeilds obvious benefits such as redundancy. Are there any other benefits to justify the cost in terms of discus?

In the event of a disaster, I do have a Jebo 825 on my 15G planted I could use. This wouldn't leave the 15G without a seeded filter. My 15G used to have a Fluval 2 Plus internal guy and I always keep filter media for it in the Jebo just in case something happens to the Jebo or I need to set up an emergency QT.

Sounds like a nice plan you have. I recently started up my first tank - 150G with ten 3" discus. I liked the idea of filter redundancy so for filtration I used an Eheim 2217 and an Eheim 2028 plus a small sponge filter (which is available for a QT). I really like both Eheims, but the 2028 (which is the Pro II series) is a bit easier to maintain because the baskets make media cleaning simple. The 2217 is every bit as good a filter - and is much less expensive - but maintenance is just a bit more of a hassle. I keep prefilters on the canister intakes so I only tear down the filters for cleaning every six weeks or so (and they are surprisingly clean).

I find that with the two canisters (plus the sponge filter which is on a powerhead) I get plenty of water flow. I aim the spray bars toward the surface to get lots of surface movement. I don't think there would be any appreciable difference if I had two 2217s or two 2208s instead of the combination.

Anyway, JMHO. Good luck.

Roadracr

[hope]

Marchmaxima,

I'm a newbie, too - started discus in October. The problem is, if you follow the discus websites, you soon realize that "resistance is futile". That's what the breeder of my Malamute says about not keeping a puppy from each litter, in fact named her dog that. I had absolutely no intention of having more than a simple display tank with 6 or so beautiful discus - a wish I had for a long time. I decided to grow out juvies because that's how I could afford the hobby. But as you read these boards you become invested in the fish - just think - after DAILY water changes and tank cleanings how attached you become to these fish (way more so than your other fish, trust me I have tropicals)! They have personalities - fisrt time I've named my fish! My plan is to eventually sell a couple so I can afford a few variations of adults, but let's face it - after watching everyone else have fry, I want some too some day! So - my 45 gal which is currently raising fry will become my tropical tank for a while (they are overcrowded), the 29 tropical will be a nice quarentine or pair tank when they breed, the 10 gal could be a back up for quarentine, and the new larger tank will be the display tank for Discus. "Resistance is Futile". It doesn't matter that I tell eveyone that this is it - I just know that this is the "real" truth of what will happen over the next few years. How can I not experience what all Discus owners sayis one of the most enjoyable parts of owning these fish - watching them rise some fry? :D

Just givin it to you straight;)

[Eyecandy]

Hi Sharon.. You are gonna love having discus in that tank.
I have the same 120 gallon 4x2x2 tank.. Just recently sold my discus as we were planning on a long distance move.. Thanks to the economy it's not gonna happen yet but the discus all have great homes. I had 8 adults ( these included 2 breeding pairs) and the tank could easily have handled 10. A lot depends how your eventual planted tank will be aquascaped down the road...

I use 2 xp3s on the tank as well as a small sponge filter so if needed it is ready for the qt tank. I use the spray bars slightly below the water line and find this gives great turnover but little turbulence just what the discus like.. Also it's nice because I alternate the cleaning of the filters so there is always plenty of beneficial bacteria around and if one should happen to have a problem there is always one filter with good bacteria running.. Yes sometimes even the best of filters fail HAHA..

If there is anyway you could start with a smaller tank barebottom for them, especially since you are talking about moving, that would be great.. It's just sometimes easier to take care of and the juvies will expend less energy/calories running around a big tank between feedings.. Not necessary but a thought. I'm only 5 feet tall and that tall tank is a pita to clean sometimes.. Yes I have a stepstool but sometimes I feel like I'm swimming with the fishes..HAHA.....
Also I don't know how you planned to do waterchanges.. buckets get old really fast.. A python works great or a pump from a "food safe" plastic heated/treated bin. I use my python (Not connected to water) to siphon out the debris and water out to my outside garden and then hook it up to the faucet for refills only.. But I have very soft water and find the ph etc doesn't change so no need for storage tanks....

Sounds like you have a great plan. Good luck. HTH Sue:D:D

[marchmaxima]

Thanks Roadracr. I appreciate your review on the two filters. I also like the idea of redundancy. The Fluval on Mum's goldie tank went over Xmas and she has been weeks waiting for a replacement part for it. (Don't ask me how these fish have survived!)

Sounds like two canisters and the sponge are a good combo. Interesting that the Eheim 2217s don't have filter media baskets. I didn't know that. Not that it really matters I guess. While I'm happy to buy quality, I'm not convinced yet that there is justification in the price difference between the Classic and the Pro.

Thanks Hope, I am fully aware that Resistance-Is-Futile :D - I think you have all convinced me that it is much better to grow these guys out in a smaller tank. *sigh* I can already hear the "You want to WHAT?!" hehehehehe

Mum has a spare 3-footer she was going to bring up to me. Depending on the height and width, that might do as a grow out tank. I will check it out.

Sue, I hear you! I'm 5 foot 3 inches. I'm already looking at step ladders!! About the XP3s you're using, are they relatively easy to maintain?

With water changes, buckets would be near-impossible. I've been looking at options. A popular one here is to use a basic hose - one end attached to a U-shaped thingy that allows you to hang it on your tank and not fall out. (They're often used to ensure washing machine hoses stay in the hole of the laundry sink) I'll just syphon water outside to the garden that way. I plan to store water in a water tank or some like container where it can age/heat, etc. To get it from the storage container to the main tank, a decent water pump should work.

Water doesn't get much softer in Melbourne. I have a KH of 0 degrees, a GH of 6 and a PH of 7.0 out of the tap & after 24 hours. Pretty decent conditions for discus from what I've read.

[Eddie]

Hey there Sharon,

How about one of these?

http://www.jehmco.com/html/safety_siphon_aquarium_drain.html

Eddie

[marchmaxima]

Now that's what I'm talking about! I haven't seen these. I'll look to see if I can source a local supplier. One of the problems with buying from O/S is that we use a different power pin configuration.

[Eddie]

Now that's what I'm talking about! I haven't seen these. I'll look to see if I can source a local supplier. One of the problems with buying from O/S is that we use a different power pin configuration.


Right...is the voltage the same as the states though, or is it 220 where you are?

Eddie

[rickztahone]

hey Sharon, from experience i can tell you that the XP3 is extremely easy to maintain. i do not have another canister filter to compare it to but it gives me everything i am looking for in a filter so why stray from what is convenient for me? the XP3 only has to be primed once and it's easy to clean, i do it in about 5-10 minutes or less. also, they are cheap IMO

[marchmaxima]

Right...is the voltage the same as the states though, or is it 220 where you are?

Eddie

240v and a frequency of 50Hz.

[Eddie]

Hey Sharon,

Bet you can build yourself one with some PVC and a submersible pump thats rated for 240. ;)

Eddie

[marchmaxima]

Yeah I reckon I can too Eddie. I'll take the pic to the hardware store and usually the staff are pretty good at helping me out.

[Eddie]

Yeah I reckon I can too Eddie. I'll take the pic to the hardware store and usually the staff are pretty good at helping me out.


Thats great, wish I had a staff to help me out. ;)

Eddie