Bloated belly

[frenchie100]

Hi everyone,

I have several things going on with my discus. Several days ago, my two PB discus started behaving really weird, and the dominant want went from being super aggressive to doing weird vibrations, bows and dances to the other discus. He tries to lure the other discus to the emperor 400 intake tube and pecks at it. So sounds like pairing...

Parallel to that I have the female of the 2 discus flicking her pectoral fins and rubbing herself to the other intake tubes. Although what the male is doing looks like breeding, the female's behavior doesn't. It looks like she is uncomfortable. She also looks bloated and it is not going down. The pic below is her belly after not having eaten for 12 hours. Every once in a while, she will do this weird chocking thing has the labored breathing, but then calms down again. Both gills are working.

Her behavior has also changed dramatically. She used to come right up to me and eat out of my hand, no matter what it was. Now she hides when I come up to the tank.

I should also mention that one of my heaters messed up in my tank, and raised the temp from 86F to 91F. It took me a couple days to bring it back down to 86.4F. Last night I did a 50% water change, although all my parameters where fine right before I did it, and it didn't help.

Sorry about the quality of the picture, I had to take it from far so that she didn't go hide!

Any input is greatly appreciated! :)

http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l62/jcain100/IMG_0813.jpg

[mikel]

I dont think the temp from 86 to 91 was a big deal. But your female could be suffering from bloat. What do you feed your fish before the 12 hour fasting? I am curious. Also...do you have epsom salt? You can pick up some cheap at any drug store...get the pure plain ones for soaking. Look up sticky at the top for common ailment and cures; click and there should be one for BLOAT...best of luck. By the way, your female looks just like my pg pair. Yes, the male is being frisky. Best ...mike

[Eddie]

Hey Julie, still not better huh.......

Can the fish swim normal? Does the fish look like it swallowed a golf ball or large marble? If the belly is still the same size as last night, I would do as mike suggested and treat with Epsom salt. It's best to remove the bloated fish and treat him only. Also, if the fish does not pass feces within a few hours of using Epsom salt, it may be related to an internal bacteria infection. In that case, you'll have to go another route.

I must ad, moving the fish will stress him or her out. Using Epsom salt is like a last resort IMO. I only use it if the fish can't swim and just floats around.

HTH
Eddie

[frenchie100]

Hi Eddie,

Yeah, you know how long this has been going on! Now the belly just always loos like that all the time... She can swim just fine, but I don't think she is eating anymore now and she hides from me whenever she sees me. I just don't know what else it could be. I don't want to stress her out either.

Do I still wait, at what point do I have to treat her?

What about her other symptoms?

And then, now at this point, neither one of my discus is eating, because the male is really picky, will only eat CBW or FBW, or would eat only if the other one was very excited about eating something. Now that she isn't anymore, he isn't either.

mikel- I have some Epsom salt on hand ready until I get the final verdict!

hmmmmmmhhhhh, what to do?

[Eddie]

Well Julie,

This a tough one, I would give her the epsom salt but if you don't have any improvement by tonight, I'm calling it an internal bacterial infection. In which case, you will need to acquire a specific med for that.

The Epsom salt
2 tbsp per 10 gallons, if nothing in changes in few hours, I'd give her another 2 tbsp. After that, it's just waiting. So you will need to mix the salt in a small shaker bottle with warm water. I normally take a little water from the tank and throw in the microwave for about 20-30 seconds. Once you get everything mixed, just add it to the tank.

You will have to remove the affected fish to hospital tank or QT. I don't recall if you have plants but salt and plants don't mix.

I will research a good med for the internal infection, if it ends up being the case. It will be good to have one on hand

Here is a piece from Kacey about internal bacteria infections


I think Kanamycin, the antibiotic that is in KanaPlex, was the right way to go. It's one of the best meds for internal bacterial infections. I would keep the treatment going for 10 days to 2 weeks minimum.I'd also do a 50% wc everyother day just before the KanaPlex is added.

I have Kanamycin in a flake food from Angel Plus but you said your fish are not eating. Might have to get some Kanaplex. It's made by seachem
Eddie

[frenchie100]

Darn it, but okay!

That won't break up the pair will it? Will the male still find her interesting when she comes back, because remember before, I was having real aggression issues...
The QT tank at this point can it just be 20 gallons with a good air pump? Or do I need to run my whisper 60 on it?

Thanks as always Eddie!:D

[Eddie]

If you have a cycled filter for the 20, yes I would move it.

The pairing thing will happen again. Your fish have alot of time to spend together. The romance will be in the air for sure. ;)

Eddie

[frenchie100]

Okay, she's been in the QT for a little less than an hour and no poop.

Well, maybe I should be a little more patient. She is not a happy camper, she is in a corner on the bottom.:(

[Eddie]

Okay, she's been in the QT for a little less than an hour and no poop.

Well, maybe I should be a little more patient. She is not a happy camper, she is in a corner on the bottom.:(


You did the 2 tablespoons per 10 Gallons? I'll be honest, in a 20 gallon QT I would add 6 tablespoons to start. But that is just me.

You have to watch him though, if he starts tilting doing anything crazy, scoop him out.

I am not patient at all. My last constipated fish.....maybe I shouldn't say this but he was in a 2.5 gallon container....I added 1 tablespoon and kept adding a little bit every 15 minutes. He passed his poo but he was not happy. He is happier than a hippo now though. He still eats like a fat pig though.

Eddie

[frenchie100]

Sorry Mike, I forgot to answer one of you questions: she had frozen mysis shrimp last, but again not veyr enthusiastically. My male is not nearly as pretty as her. Thanks for the help!:)

[mikel]

Treating a sick fish is always a scary thing for me. So I wish you the very best! mike

[pcsb23]

I don't klnow why Eddie uses epsom salts as a last resort, ime if a discus (any fish) is bloated then epsom salts is the first thing I turn too, sooner rather than later too. If a discus stays bloated for an extended time then the odds of it making a full recovery dwindle rapidly. It soon develops into an internal bacterial infection and allied to it not being able to pass anything becomes very difficult to treat.

Epsom salts will not harm your discus or any fish, nor will it harm any plants or the bio filter. If the other fish are not bloated then it won't cause them any problems.

If after 24 hours of epsom salts there is no chnage then I'd suspect an internal infection too. Kanamycin is a a good bet here.

[Eddie]

I don't klnow why Eddie uses epsom salts as a last resort, ime if a discus (any fish) is bloated then epsom salts is the first thing I turn too, sooner rather than later too. If a discus stays bloated for an extended time then the odds of it making a full recovery dwindle rapidly. It soon develops into an internal bacterial infection and allied to it not being able to pass anything becomes very difficult to treat.

Epsom salts will not harm your discus or any fish, nor will it harm any plants or the bio filter. If the other fish are not bloated then it won't cause them any problems.

If after 24 hours of epsom salts there is no chnage then I'd suspect an internal infection too. Kanamycin is a a good bet here.


I don't us Epsom salt unless absolutely necessary. 95% of the time, my fish recover from bloat on their own. I have always had overeaters and they will gorge themselves. Stressing the fish out with a move is more important to me and feel it does more damage than good if the fish will recover on his own. Also, treating an entire tank with Epsom salt is pointless and just not necessary for all the fish to be suscepted to.

Eddie

[pcsb23]

Eddie the point I was trying to make is that epsom salts will not harm the other occupants of the tank. There may even be some benefits. There is no reason to remove a fish to treat for bloat. Mind you I wouldn't want to treat an entire system or pond with epsom salts, at least not until I'd taken shares in the company that makes it!

[Eddie]

Eddie the point I was trying to make is that epsom salts will not harm the other occupants of the tank. There may even be some benefits. There is no reason to remove a fish to treat for bloat. Mind you I wouldn't want to treat an entire system or pond with epsom salts, at least not until I'd taken shares in the company that makes it!

Right Paul, understood. Julie has a planted tank and it's pretty large. Dosing that tank would take like 2 full boxes of Epsom salt and the plants definitely wouldn't last. I also have plants so I need to treat only the one if he can't seem to shake the bloat. Julie's fish can otherwise swim fine, just has evidence of bloat. She is treating with the Epsom salt over night so if it doesn't help, she is gonna go with Kana. ;)

Eddie

[pcsb23]

I've never had an issue in planted tanks with adding epsom salts (MgSO4). Ordinary salt (NaCL) will definitely harm plants but epsom salts is fine ime. I wouldn't leave any med in there indefinitely though.

[Eddie]

I've never had an issue in planted tanks with adding epsom salts (MgSO4). Ordinary salt (NaCL) will definitely harm plants but epsom salts is fine ime. I wouldn't leave any med in there indefinitely though.

Thanks Paul, I thought that pretty much any salt was deadly for plants. Good to know! Yeah, looked at a prior post, Julie has a 100 gallon tank, thats alot of Epsom salt! I'll tell her to treat the tank just after I buy stock in it. :D

Eddie

[frenchie100]

Okay, I had to jump through hoops to find some Kanamycin. I finally found a fish store that could mail me some Kanaplex overnight to get tomorrow. The guy was really nice.

Then, I got anxious and did everything I could to find some form on Kanamycin to give to her today, because I really don't think she can wait until tomorrow. So found this fish store and the guy tells me that often times the internal bactrial infection is secondary to internal parasite and that I really need to medicate my fish with formalin and Kanamycin AT THE SAME TIME...

I had him swear to me that it was okay and that it wouldn't kill my fish :o!

I still need to double check with you guys first though:p!

So please tell me!
This fish is giving a panic attack!
Thank you do much!

[Joshcat]

I wouldn't use 2 medications at the same time ever!

[Eddie]

I wouldn't use 2 medications at the same time ever!


Concur

Definitely do not use Kana and formalin at the same time. This LFS guy got fired from Mc Donald's because he couldn't keep from burning the fries...and there is a beeper that goes off in which the entire store knows...the fries must be ready.


Don't buy the formalin, please. It is not used for any internal parasite. The kana will be fine, trust me. ;)

Eddie

[frenchie100]

Thanks for making me laugh Eddie! That was hilarious:):)

[Eddie]

;) Thought you might like that .

There are not too many LFS guys out there that know one thing about medicating a fish, especially a discus. They are just trying to make a sale. They could sell cars too, tell you that leather interior has to come with a 200 disc CD changer!

Eddie

[frenchie100]

Okay, I think I can breathe a sigh of relief for maybe a second, because it acutally looks like she is doing better. For the first time since yesterday, she is swimming, instead of clamped fins and sitting on the bottom.

Now here is my next question: Is it normal that my water is completely cloudy? I did a 100% water change ( if not more) before putting the meds in. I say maybe more because I did a 50% wc then pulled the carbon cartridge out of the filter which put some gumk in the water so I ended up doing another 50%.

Also, the product I used is called "k-mycin first choice", which are capsules that you open up. It says to use it everyday for 5 days. Kanamycin 150mg.
Tomorrow I will be receiving the Kanaplex. How do I transition to the new med? Kanaplex says to treat every other day for 3 treatments. Do I do a 50 % wc, put the Kanaplex in? It would seem that I would have too much meds in there if I did that:confused:.

[frenchie100]

Okay water not cloudy anymore it is MILKY:mad:!! I can't even see my fish! LUckily her qt tank is sitting on my vanity that has a mirror behind it so I can see her through there!:D

[Eddie]

Your water is cloudy after the WC? You removed all the salt with the WC so not sure why it's cloudy. Is your filter probably letting making all the water cloudy?


Eddie

[frenchie100]

Oh you thought I was kidding when I said not cloudy but MILKY! Here it is! It has gotten progressively worse over the past couple hours. She doesn't seem to be doing so good anymore, she's in the bottom right hand corner again...

http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l62/jcain100/IMG_0816.jpg

[Eddie]

Yeah, thats not good. I'd take off the whisper, its the culprit. Do a 100% WC and we'll go from there. You said you just changed the filter pad in the whisper?

Eddie

[frenchie100]

Yeah, that's what I thought!
For the whisper 60 when I set up the QT tank I left it intact like I had it in the 100 gallon tank. In it it has 2 cartridges and 2 cellpore plates. When I did my water change tonight, before putting the meds in I took all four medias out. So now the inside is empty.
So just leave the air pump in there?

[Eddie]

Yeah, that's what I thought!
For the whisper 60 when I set up the QT tank I left it intact like I had it in the 100 gallon tank. In it it has 2 cartridges and 2 cellpore plates. When I did my water change tonight, before putting the meds in I took all four medias out. So now the inside is empty.
So just leave the air pump in there?

Yeah, I would for now. I'd do a good breakdown of your filter. Use some dechlorinated water and wipe the plates. Rinse them well with clean dechlor water and make sure they don't cloud up the water in a bucket or other container. The new cartridges you put in there. Just run them through some tap water and make sure they are well rinsed. Once that is done, put the whisper back on the tank.

Et Viola!

Eddie

[frenchie100]

I did a 240% water change to get the water looking like this. Best I could do get the water looking like this. I stopped because she was shedding too much slime coat. She is looking better though... A littel aple, but that's it. Since it is 9:50pm and I'm getting my Kanaplex by noon tomorrow, should I just wait to get that, and leave the tank alone for tonight. The is off, but I am about to pass out of exhaustion so it is going to have to wait until tomorrow to get cleaned.

Wow, how do you do accents on the keyboard? I always type "accentless" when writing to my mom!

http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l62/jcain100/IMG_0818.jpg

[Eddie]

Looks much better! Not sure about the accents...:confused:

So will you be cleaning the filter tonight and adding it back?

Eddie

[frenchie100]

LOL Oh there wasn't any accents on "Et Voila". Did I mention I really was exhausted?! I have been up since 6 am running around with 2 toddlers, so I need to go to sleep, the filter is going to have to wait until tomorrow morning. I'll keep it off, so it doesn't get the water all dirty. The water's not going to go bad until then, is it?

[rickztahone]

didn't realize things were that bad from when i talked to you Julie. that tank looked like you blew smoke in it. was that the filter that you ran in the tank with no fish? if so, then maybe that was it? i swapped out the carbon that comes in the HOB filter i have, thanks Eddie btw, i did it because you told me to. i just cut out the top part of the cartridge, dumped the carbon out and put some filter floss in there. for now, it seems like the tank has cleared up. i hope everything is good tomorrow morning. make sure to keep us posted. good luck

[pcsb23]

When using some anti-biotics it will make the water go cloudy. This is fairly normal. Though when I have used Kanamycin sulphate based meds before this has not happened.

Eddie and Joshcat are dead right when they say don't use formalin and an AB together, the formalin will nuke the AB and both will be wasted, it is possible in some cases that the by products are not good for the fish too.

In general when using AB's dose daily after a w/c. Dose at full dose and keep the dose going for 10 days or more. If you think when you go and see a quack, oops sorry a doctor :o, they always give you ten to fourteen days and always tell you to complete the course. They don't do this because they have shares in the pharmaceutical companies!!:D

[frenchie100]

Woke up this morning to find the tank just as cloudy as before I did my water change:confused::confused::confused:
So I put her back in the main tank until I can figure out what's wrong with the QT tank. There is this like white deposit everywhere too. She was shedding a lot of slime coat to and it was all over her.

She seems pretty happy back in the main tank now, the male dancing all over her, LOL!

I am thinking it has to do with my additives I put in there. I use neutral regulator, discus buffer and prime. I know prime and neutral regulator double eachother, but I haven't weaned my fish off of it. I use NR to soften my water and lower my pH along with the discus buffer ( I use 1/2 the amount of that compared to NR).

So again :confused::confused::confused:

[frenchie100]

Hi Ricardo,
Yeah, things got bad as soon as I put actual meds in there! LOL
Well, at least her belly has gone down in size.
I'll see you on Tuesday!
-Julie

[pcsb23]

Woke up this morning to find the tank just as cloudy as before I did my water change:confused::confused::confused:
So I put her back in the main tank until I can figure out what's wrong with the QT tank. There is this like white deposit everywhere too. She was shedding a lot of slime coat to and it was all over her.

She seems pretty happy back in the main tank now, the male dancing all over her, LOL!

I am thinking it has to do with my additives I put in there. I use neutral regulator, discus buffer and prime. I know prime and neutral regulator double eachother, but I haven't weaned my fish off of it. I use NR to soften my water and lower my pH along with the discus buffer ( I use 1/2 the amount of that compared to NR).

So again :confused::confused::confused:Jeepers I'm not surprised a proper chemical soup going on. Only use one dechlor, prime will do - forget the rest they really are not necessary and in fact counter productive. Likelihood is that the kanamycin was causing the phosphate to precipitate out of the water.

In a hopsital tank keep things very simple. Dechlored water, a heater and if appropriate a filter sponge or airstone.

[frenchie100]

LOL! Thank Paul. I think you are right on about the precipitation because when I completely cleaned out the tank this morning, there was a whole layer of what looked like snow on the bottom of the tank!

Cleaned everything out, put brand new water, made sure the heat stabilized and put her back in there. Started her on the Kanaplex and everything seems ok so far.

-Julie

[rickztahone]

i completely agree with Paul here Julie. when you get Kenny's shipment i advise for you not to mess with the water with the buffer and all those other chemicals. i use aged tap water (24 hrs) and just use de-chlorinator and that's it. discus adapt to even high pH levels. it also makes things a lot easier. i want to switch to not having to age my water but i haven't got the test kit to see if my water is stable. Casper said he'd bring a test kit to check it when he comes over, till then i'll do it the old fashion way

[Eddie]

Hiya Julie,

How is everything today...I see there was conflicting water treatments. I had no idea you were using all that. :confused:

How is the fish doing with the K treatment? You'll definitely need to complete the full treatment as Paul mentioned.

Take care,

Eddie

[frenchie100]

Yeah, the water treatment thing is because when my aquarium was just tropical fish, I would use Amquel + and Novaqua +, when I got those discus I was told I needed softer water and lower pH, so started using Neutral Regulator and discus buffer.

On one of my old posts, if you remember, I had mentioned that I was using all that and everyone told me that it wasn't needed. So I cut out amquel + and Novaqua +, and was trying to "wean" my fish from first the discus buffer and then eventually Neutral regulator. I just haven't gotten to that yet because,
1. I don't know if my pH is stable
2. I don't have an aging barrel, I do all my wcs with a python syphon hooked to my sink.
3. I don't even know how to test to see if it is stable.

So then, in the mix I started using Prime for the slime coat! I know, I know..

The fish seems to be doing fine in the k- treatment.

The instructions say to treat every 2 days for up to 3 doses. It doesn't say if I should be doing water changes during that time. Should I?
If yes, how? Do I add again watever amount of meds I removed during the wc?

I don't know how my messages end up so long...:confused:

[Eddie]

Yeah, the water treatment thing is because when my aquarium was just tropical fish, I would use Amquel + and Novaqua +, when I got those discus I was told I needed softer water and lower pH, so started using Neutral Regulator and discus buffer.

On one of my old posts, if you remember, I had mentioned that I was using all that and everyone told me that it was needed. So I cut out amquel + and Novaqua +, and was trying to "wean" my fish from first the discus buffer and then eventually Neutral regulator. I just haven't gotten to that yet because,
1. I don't know if my pH is stable
2. I don't have an aging barrel, I do all my wcs with a python syphon hooked to my sink.
3. I don't even know how to test to see if it is stable.

So then, in the mix I started using Prime for the slime coat! I know, I know..

The fish seems to be doing fine in the k- treatment.

The instructions say to treat every 2 days for up to 3 doses. It doesn't say if I should be doing water changes during that time. Should I?
If yes, how? Do I add again waterever amount of meds I removed during the wc?

I don't know how my messages end up so long...:confused:

Follow the guidelines for the treatment but just before every treatment, I would do a 25% WC. Thats strange that it doesn't say to change any water. Maybe after so long the drug dissipates and isn't it's original strength. Either way, changing 25% will not do anything except good. ;)

Eddie

[rickztahone]

Yeah, the water treatment thing is because when my aquarium was just tropical fish, I would use Amquel + and Novaqua +, when I got those discus I was told I needed softer water and lower pH, so started using Neutral Regulator and discus buffer.

On one of my old posts, if you remember, I had mentioned that I was using all that and everyone told me that it wasn't needed. So I cut out amquel + and Novaqua +, and was trying to "wean" my fish from first the discus buffer and then eventually Neutral regulator. I just haven't gotten to that yet because,
1. I don't know if my pH is stable
2. I don't have an aging barrel, I do all my wcs with a python syphon hooked to my sink.
3. I don't even know how to test to see if it is stable.

So then, in the mix I started using Prime for the slime coat! I know, I know..

The fish seems to be doing fine in the k- treatment.

The instructions say to treat every 2 days for up to 3 doses. It doesn't say if I should be doing water changes during that time. Should I?
If yes, how? Do I add again watever amount of meds I removed during the wc?

I don't know how my messages end up so long...:confused:

you check if your pH is stable by testing water from your tap and from your tank. you take a cup of water and check the pH. the next day you do the same thing, if it is the same then your pH from tap is stable and you can do a WC the way you have been doing it. if it isn't stable you need to age it in a barrel/tote w/ a heater and a air pump over night so that it stabilizes

[rickztahone]

any updates Julie? no news is good news i guess?

[frenchie100]

Update: The female is doing much better and not bloated anymore although I had to put the male in there with her because one day into treatment he started to show the same signs. Then, the female started breathing with one gill so I finished the Kanaplex treatment, did a 150% wc 36 hours later put carbon back in filter, waited, then, last night started with Prazipro. Took the carbon out again. I'm not surprised, I knew this was going to happen and just taking it one day at a time... They are eating, although I am feeding them only 2x a day because that 20 gallon tank is really hard to keep stable. Can't wait for them to be back in their main tank!

-Julie

[Eddie]

Hiya Julie,

Sounds like you are on top of it!

Good luck
Eddie