How to QT / Quarantine new fish and discus

[cyang]

Ok so I've done some searching on the forum but have failed to come up with a thread that shows exactly what needs to be done during QT. I've seen stuff saying 1) you should QT new fish 2) QT them for X period of time 3) watch them closely 4) don't let water or equip go from tank to tank 5) QT all tankmates.

However, I have no seen anything that states what to do during the QT period of X length. Do you treat with preventative meds?

So what are the details of the QT process on a micro (not macro) level?

What are the general preventative meds to use? (week 1-2 use X med, week 3-4 used Y med, etc).

OR is merely keeping an eye on the fish to make sure they aren't sick enough?

What is the process to QT clown loaches or tetras? (somewhat sensitive fish to meds). This is especially my concern b/c I plan to add tankmates in the future.

Thanks in advance. Look for that sweet expert advice!

[TankWatcher]

This might help
http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?t=21044

[Don Trinko]

Basicly for any fish it is keeping them in a seperate tank for 4 to 6 weeks
( some would suggest a longer time, as long as 3 months) to make sure they bring no disease to the fish in the main tank. Some people do "deworm" them while in QT but IMO it is not neccisay to medicate unless you see some symptom of a disease. Don T.

[ShinShin]

When I receive a new batch of fish, I always treat them with a malachite green/formalin product. Always. This does little harm to fish. Not only will it help with any bugs that are already being carried on the skin, it will kill any oppurtunistic parasites, particularly protozoans, that will breakdown a discus and lead to bacterial outbreaks, and quite possiblly a Hex outbreak if the discus has a few bugs in the gut. How many times has a shipment looked good for 3 days, only to wake up to a tank of discus, breaking down?

Wild fish then are treated for tapeworms because they are common in wild fish. If I get domestics that were imported, I treat them with prazi as well. If I get domestic bred in the USA from someone that I know never fed tubifex or CBW's, I skip this procedure.

I then treat for nematodes. Levamisole will stress the discus some, but that is better than having an outbreak of cappilaria in the fishroom. I sometimes skip this if I only get 1 or 2 fish. It is very easy to collect fresh fecal sample from one or two discus and look for worms or eggs with my microscope.

Mat

[DiscussDiscus]

There are many schools of thought on maintenance.

For me: QT means high temp to increase appetite, very heavy WC's and close inspection to watch for any signs of sickness or shyness.

I also consider QT a good time to introduce your fish to you, your habits, and "how things go around here."

I want my discus to be very comfortable with "me" before they join any show tanks or community tanks, so that its one less variable to stress them.

I do not medicate unless I see a reason to, as I'd hate to have the fish have an adverse reaction to unnecessary meds, or grow a resistance to meds they may really need in the future....


I think of fish like people. After you spend a couple days travelling and end up in a new city you need good food, some rest and a clean place to sleep. It doesn't make sense to me to start chugging Antacids, cold medicine and take a few booster shots...

my 2cp, HTH.

Regards,
Lee

[cyang]

Thanks this is really helpful! Is there anything different you would do for bleeding heart tetras and clown loaches? Any meds that need to be cut in half? I only ask b/c i know clowns and tetras are often sensitive to meds.

[Graham]

Unless the meds states to cut the dose ...do not. Meds should always be used at the bottle level doses...no more, no less.

As to QT for the typical hobbyist bringing in a few new fish, no drugs or chems should be used unless there is an obvious reason or a microscopic exam has been done and something identified. Then the appropriate drug or chem used

G

[Eddie]

I pretty much mirror what Matt does (ShinShin). I have no idea where fish are coming from here in Okinawa. All I know is they play musical tanks at the LFS. One day I'll see 6 or 7 healthy discus in a tank, on the weekend I'll see the same fish breathing out of one gill or turned completely black. Then the following week I will see a nice group of Wild discus in that same tank.

I am not bringing any of that extra baggage home to my fish.

Eddie

[ShinShin]

You've never lost a fishroom full of discus from bringing in discus that looked perfectly heathy, have you, Graham. Oh, thats right, you keep carp. ;) (which discus aren't)

Mat

[Graham]

A fish is a fish...and when I bring in one koi that's worth $2,000US and I'm going to add it, after QT to another $15,000 worth of fish, I want to be damn sure he's healthy but I also don't want to mess him up with unnecessary drugs and chems. I treat when there's something to treat and use the best drug or med I can for that problem....no what ifs


BTW I only have 15 koi....

Each and Every time we dump something into the water or into the fish we are messing with them, internal chemistry wise, organ wise and fauna wise....thier liver and kidneys have to handle the crap that we throw at them.

A lot of antibiotics come out of thier systems no different than when they went in but hobbyists are told to add more...now they've double dosed and don't even realize it....


When we dump oxidizers like PP or FMG into the water those chemicals are also working on the fish. Thier gill lamallae are only one cell thick but after an oxidizer treatment, those cells are swollen. ....do it enough then the lammallae get clubbed or double or triple up in cell thickness...a little hard for gas exchange or maintaining osmotic regulation when thier gills look like the soles on your feet.

The fewer things used on a fish the better!



G

[TankWatcher]

I don't treat routinely with what I class as medications (antibiotics) etc. But I do routinely worm them & this forms part of my QT procedure. Vets here recommend we regularly give our dogs heart worm tablets as precautionary measure. My vet also said that with the changing of every season, I should worm my bird with Avitrol Plus (a bird mixture with active constituents Levamisole & Praziquantel).

So, I'm not trying to be disrespectful to anyone's position here, just saying that if I accept my vet's advice that regular deworming is good & recommended for the dog & the bird, I don't understand why not accept the same practise for the fish? Like with many things in the fish hobby, I've found that on most topics, there isn't ever going to be 100% agreement between us hobbyists, but in the end, we're all just trying to do our best for the fish.

[ShinShin]

You are crying wolf, where no wolf is present. I am not talking arbitrary chemical bombardment that can actually be toxic to the fish. Even if a three time malachite green/formalin would actually do any temporary harm, it would only be temporary. If any damage is done, the body would repair itself. I am guessing a 3X treatment over 5 days does no lasting harm at all. It will kill any oppurtunistic protozoans that can lead to the death of an entire shipment, however.

Prazi is a safe and harmless chemical. It will kill any tapeworms present that could ruin an entire shipment. Casual observations over 3-4 weeks would quite probabally not reveal this infestaion either. After 6-8 weeks of a healthy appeitite, and next to no growth, a whole batch of discus juvieswould be ruined, never reaching their full potential.

Now let's look at nematodes. Eggs and worms are too small to see by the naked eye. How many people here do you think own a microscope, muchless be able to collect a fresh fecal sample from each discus in a shipment? Yet, one infected discus can end up killing an entire tank when the sypmtoms finally show themselves, almost 100% of the time too late, and beyong the 4 week casual obsevation QT period.

The liver is designed to remove toxins from the body. Repeated toxic poisoning would eventually cause liver failure, not an occasional treatment. Do you mean to tell me that you are 100% organic, chemical free in you life style? Never had a cocktail, beer ot shot of Old Grandad? Did is cause liver failure? Same deal with the fish.

It is easier to observe one fish, like a koi, than 10-12 discus swimming in a tank. I never mentioned a shotgun approach with antibiotics, BTW.

Mat

[Graham]

hey you're the one trying to kill a wolf where there may be none present...you're the one that automatically declares chemical warfare, for just in case problems. At least I wait to see if there are any wolves present

Do you really have any idea what chemicals actually do or what antibiotics actually do.

Everytime you toss Formalin in there you're trying to embalm your fish and anything on it. The second that formalin touches the gill it's an irritant and it'll trigger a fight or flight response in the fish. This in turn stimulates excess mucus production to try an protect the gills cells and with corticosteroids in the blood being produced. Respiration is increased, blood pressure is increased, osmoregulation is slowed down so the fish can retain fluids, kidney function is affected....and so on. This all takes days to a week or more to correct itself.

In other words we just messed up thier chemistry all because we're worried they might have something:bandana:

Malachite Green is a toxic dye, we're not allowed to eat fish expoused to it because it may cause liver cancer,yet we take our precious little fish and let them swim around in it for no aperant reason....

I'd lay odds that 3/4 of our fish die from drug misuse, administrating the wrong med and misdiagnosing a problem, not a parasite or bacterial problem.

Most hobbyist don't even notice a problem with thier fish till the fish is laying over half dead and that's in glass box with 50 to 100 gallons of water....About the only thing out there that can wipe out fish quick is costia and there would even be signs of that, if someone where paying attention.

IMO and many others; Shotgunning fish for a possible problem is abuse of drugs and chems


Tankwatcher, dogs are expoused to potential worms eveytime they go outside, a little different


PS have a drink or 2 of scotch isn't quite like drinking embalming fluid

[Eddie]

Graham,

I just wanted to say that Robyn (Tankwatcher) actually is dealing alot with wild caught Discus these days so it is kind of like exposing her fish to outside influences, diseases and parasites. QT for WC discus is a whole other ball game when compared to tank raised hybrid Discus.

Eddie

[TankWatcher]

Tankwatcher, dogs are expoused to potential worms eveytime they go outside, a little different Very true, Graham :) but even so, we are treating for a wolf that may not be there & that our dog may never be exposed to and we do this because the vet has said the dewormer is safe to use as a precautionary tactic. My bird lives in a single bird household & doesn't go outside (unless it is in my backyard & on my shoulder & then that's where he stays). So, he's not exposed to other birds to bring him worms. But still, the vet advised that with the changing of each season, I should worm him. The vet wasn't trying to sell me the product either - just told me to go to a pet store & get a bird wormer. I just can't, in my own mind, view dewormers in the same category as full blown medicines, & particularly not with antibiotics or other strong meds.

Fully respect your opinion & hope we can agree to disagree :)

[Don Trinko]

Well; You asked a question and got a variety of DIFFERENT answers. In this case several well respected people have different proceedures. Now you have to choose. Don T.

[smsimcik]

I don't treat routinely with what I class as medications (antibiotics) etc. But I do routinely worm them & this forms part of my QT procedure. Vets here recommend we regularly give our dogs heart worm tablets as precautionary measure. My vet also said that with the changing of every season, I should worm my bird with Avitrol Plus (a bird mixture with active constituents Levamisole & Praziquantel).

So, I'm not trying to be disrespectful to anyone's position here, just saying that if I accept my vet's advice that regular deworming is good & recommended for the dog & the bird, I don't understand why not accept the same practise for the fish? Like with many things in the fish hobby, I've found that on most topics, there isn't ever going to be 100% agreement between us hobbyists, but in the end, we're all just trying to do our best for the fish.

Hi Robyn, I just wanted to clear up a couple of statements you made about deworming dogs and birds. I'm a vet in Texas. The heartworm preventatives used in dogs is actually preventing the maturation of the immature form of heartworms spread by mosquitoes. They prevent the larva from becoming adults. These drugs are not actually killing adult heartworms in dogs.

Levamisole and Prazi kill adult worms. They are designed to get rid of adult worms when an animal is infected. They are also definitely considered drugs as much as antibiotics or any other drug you can think of.

Giving heartworm preventative to your dog is very safe. There are almost no long term problems with giving heartworm preventatives to dogs.

Levamisole and prazi are also generally pretty safe when used at the proper dosages. I don't want to contradict what your vet recommends, but I generally don't recommend deworming my client's animals unless I can identify a specific parasite with a fecal exam. Then I use something specific for that parasite. And we repeat the treatment until subsequent fecals are negative.

As far as fish QT is concerned, Graham and Mat both make good points. I guess alot depends on where the fish came from.

[TankWatcher]

Hi smsimcik

Thanks for the reply :)

I wasn't only talking about heart worms for dogs. I don't have printed info from my own vet (advice was verbal) but googling for dog worms in Aust just now gave me lots of info, including this one from VetWest Animal Hospital http://www.vetwest.com.au/caring-for-your-dog-1
The most common intestinal worms that affect dogs in Australia are roundworm, hookworm, whipworm and tapeworm. Loss of appetite, vomiting, diarrhoea and in severe cases even death are just some of the symptoms a dog can experience from a worm infestation.

How do I to protect my dog from worms?

Common worms are readily controllable with a routine worming treatment. Puppies should be wormed every two weeks until twelve weeks of age, then monthly until six months of age. After six months all dogs need to be wormed every three months for effective protection. Box Hill Veterinary Hospital recommends much the same http://www.bhvet.com.au/petcare/dogworm.php There any many more such links.

Just one link about route worming for birds http://au.lifestyle.yahoo.com/b/better-homes-gardens/2529/dr-harrys-top-problems-and-solutions/

Are current veterinary care recommendations different in Aus than the USA? I don't know (shrug). Only know that my vet did not suggest a fecal exam, just routine preventative worming. The Aussie on-line net articles seemed the same. When not all vets agree on a course of action :argue: how can us simple hobbyists ever hope to all agree. Don't think we ever will :) In the end I have to go with the advice of the vet that is accessible to me, provided I also feel able to trust him/her of course. I wish we had vets that treated fish. I think there are some, but few & far between. Most vets I have contacted here are not interested to at all when it comes to fish.

Do we have any Aussie vet's as member's here. It would be great to know that.

[ShinShin]

Graham,

Look, I am not doubting your knowledge or carp raising skills, but you are totally overexaggerating your point. First of all, a fish is a fish is a fish mentality is way off base. Discus, by their very nature are more susceptable to disease than carp. Carp have a very high tolerance by their very nature.

Formalin is tolerated at 25 to 100 ppm according to Dr. John Gratzek and George Blasiola, both who are published and make their livings dealing with fish health. Now, one drop per gallon of MG/F product hardly equates to embalming fluid, nor does it exceed the above dosage level deemed safe for fish. We didn't mix up their chemistry because MG is external. It is not absorbed by the gills, and MG is still the treatment of choice for external protozoans by many discus and tropical fish experts. Because MG has been deemed a carcinogenic by the state of California, it doesn't mean it has any ill effects on fish as an external medication. Your carp can eat stuff that would make you puke and have no side effects itself whatsoever. My discus will eat raw ground turkey breast that would give me salmonelle poisoning, and they wouldn't even fart from it.

I'm not doubting many fish are kill by overmedicating. A lot don't have a clue. However, you are not the only one who has any knowledge or skills in this area. When you can bring in shipment after shipment of discus, ranging in age and size, domestic and wilds successfully, time and time again, save fish that alot would have had die on them and bring them back, then I feel you may comment on how to QT new DISCUS. Until then, you are only guessing. Dsicus are not carp.

Mat

[TankWatcher]

Levamisole and Prazi kill adult worms. They are designed to get rid of adult worms when an animal is infected. They are also definitely considered drugs as much as antibiotics or any other drug you can think of. At some level, and not one I pretend to understand, they are considered differently by the medical authorities in Australia. Antibiotics are a controlled drug & you need a prescription from a medical Dr or Vet. For example, we cannot walk into any LFS and buy anything containing metro. Whereas wormer's are freely available in pet stores & supermarket shelves. So someone, somewhere here in Aus in a position of medical authority, decided that wormer's are safe for the public to buy without medical advice but that antibiotics are not safe, and can only be obtained via your Dr or Vet.

Not saying that whoever made that decision in Aus is right, just trying to show what led my mind to view them differently, even if I'm misguided in doing so.

[Graham]

QUOTE=ShinShin;494960]Graham,

Look, I am not doubting your knowledge or carp raising skills, but you are totally overexaggerating your point. First of all, a fish is a fish is a fish mentality is way off base.

Duh it’s a fish every fish has different levels

Discus, by their very nature are more susceptable to disease than carp. Carp have a very high tolerance by their very nature.

Obviously you’ve never kept a koi…the better they are the bigger PITA’s they are…think pure bred little dogs..you might get the idea. They’re just about as bad as Discus; The breeders have cross bred them till they have no immune system overall, they are disasters looking for a place to happen

Formalin is tolerated at 25 to 100 ppm according to Dr. John Gratzek and George Blasiola, both who are published and make their livings dealing with fish health. Now, one drop per gallon of MG/F product hardly equates to embalming fluid, nor does it exceed the above dosage level deemed safe for fish.

Mat it’s a toxic chemical that we happen to use just to the point of poisoning the fish…it’s tolerated….duh! Go look up how formalin works…it replaces the cells fluid…at 37% it just doesn’t do it quite as quick.


We didn't mix up their chemistry because MG is external. It is not absorbed by the gills,


damn how does it get into the fish

and MG is still the treatment of choice for external protozoans by many discus and tropical fish experts. Because MG has been deemed a carcinogenic by the state of California, it doesn't mean it has any ill effects on fish as an external medication.

Most of the dealers and hobbyist don't have a clue how anything works so they wouldn't know if it hurt the fish or not DUH

It is absorbed by fish; if it wasn’t then we could eat aquaculture raised fish that had been treated with it… It also has a very limited kill range




Your carp can eat stuff that would make you puke and have no side effects itself whatsoever. My discus will eat raw ground turkey breast that would give me salmonelle poisoning, and they wouldn't even fart from it.

Not even relevant or with in the conversation

I'm not doubting many fish are kill by overmedicating. A lot don't have a clue. However, you are not the only one who has any knowledge or skills in this area.

I wonder sometimes


When you can bring in shipment after shipment of discus, ranging in age and size, domestic and wilds successfully, time and time again, save fish that alot would have had die on them and bring them back, then I feel you may comment on how to QT new DISCUS. Until then, you are only guessing. Dsicus are not carp.

Sorry Mat you’re full of !@#$; You missed something along the line when it came to my experience. I’ve volunteered, worked for part time and full time, managed, purchased fish for individual stores and a chain of 10 stores and had a financial interest in that chain of stores…all this since I was about 15 years old.
I’ve been evolved with transshipping fish in from the Orient, CA &SA since I was a kid and that included discus. Don’t tell me how to save a fish!



/QUOTE

[TankWatcher]

Why did this get so personal? We all want the best for our fish & that's what each of us are trying to do. Might scare ppl from contributing to discussions :(

[cyang]

FLAVOR FLAV!

[bs6749]

Formalin is tolerated at 25 to 100 ppm according to Dr. John Gratzek and George Blasiola, both who are published and make their livings dealing with fish health. Now, one drop per gallon of MG/F product hardly equates to embalming fluid, nor does it exceed the above dosage level deemed safe for fish.

Mat it’s a toxic chemical that we happen to use just to the point of poisoning the fish…it’s tolerated….duh! Go look up how formalin works…it replaces the cells fluid…at 37% it just doesn’t do it quite as quick.

Graham, I don't believe that formalin actually "replaces" the cell fluid. What it does is link proteins together and this causes the cells to become more rigid, similar to psorosis of the liver in humans that consume vast amounts of alcohol. The key here is VAST AMOUNTS. Surely someone that takes a drink or two every now and then isn't going to have a hardened liver, while someone that downs a 12 pack every night is going to be in much worse condition.

It irritates me to no end that people hear the term "chemical" and they have such a bad opinion towards using any medications/"chemicals" to treat their fish and they opt for a "natural" or "organic" solution. There has been such a negative connotation tied to the term "chemical" that whenever the average Joe/Jane hears that term their minds starts racing and they think "toxicity, bad, mutation" and other negative thoughts that couldn't be further from the truth. The fact is, all of are fish are CONSTANTLY swimming around in chemicals, namely water among other things. Nearly anything can be a chemical, and I'm not speaking to you directly since I know you are well aware of this, rather I'm informing others of this fact. What those people that opt for a "natural" or "organic" solution don't realize is that when they put in Melafix or Pimafix for example, they are in fact using...CHEMICALS!

Well, now I'm way off track. What I'd like to mention next is that moderation is key with anything, including treating fish. It may seem harsh to add a 37% solution of formalin to the tank but that number is more like 0.00037 or 0.037% (based on a rough estimate of 1000 tablespoons per 10 gallons), which is hardly any amount of substance at all. Try to measure this on a scale to 5 decimal places and I'm sure you'll find it hard to do since most go out 3 decimal spots.

Furthermore, formalin is a known carcinogen in humans according to the state of CA. Assuming that this is true, isn't it an odd fact that formalin is used in vaccines to preserve them and it's also used in wart removers? Surely cancer cannot be worth the risk of removing a wart or getting vaccinated, which implies that the amount and/or duration of exposure must be rather larger. It also implies that small amounts, or the moderation that I'm talking about here is okay and the benefits of using small amounts in moderation far outweigh the chance of getting cancer. Would I risk removing a wart if I had a 50% chance of getting cancer from the treatment? No. Would I do the same if the risk were much less substantial, say 3%? Most likely.



Your carp can eat stuff that would make you puke and have no side effects itself whatsoever. My discus will eat raw ground turkey breast that would give me salmonelle poisoning, and they wouldn't even fart from it.

Not even relevant or with in the conversation

You took his words out of context in an attempt to make him look foolish. I believe what Mat is trying to say is that fish are different than people and that fish are also different from other fish in the way their bodies function. Surely this must be true since Quick Cure, which contains F& MG is recommended to be cut in half when used on tetras and other fish (forget which ones exactly). This is because their bodies work differently. When is the last time you saw Koi fry eating off of the secretion produced by their parents? I've used F & MG on a tank with Endlers that had day old fry and all fry lived, so size wasn't the factor as tetras are much larger than the fry I treated and I went full dose, not half and I treated as directed except I didn't do the water changes.



When you can bring in shipment after shipment of discus, ranging in age and size, domestic and wilds successfully, time and time again, save fish that alot would have had die on them and bring them back, then I feel you may comment on how to QT new DISCUS. Until then, you are only guessing. Dsicus are not carp.

Sorry Mat you’re full of !@#$; You missed something along the line when it came to my experience. I’ve volunteered, worked for part time and full time, managed, purchased fish for individual stores and a chain of 10 stores and had a financial interest in that chain of stores…all this since I was about 15 years old.
I’ve been evolved with transshipping fish in from the Orient, CA &SA since I was a kid and that included discus. Don’t tell me how to save a fish!

You guys both need to grow up a little bit (yeah I know...surprising coming from ME of all people:angel: LOL). You are both very knowledgeable and are both very well respected and appreciated. Your opinons are both valued though your approaches do differ. Reading through old posts I'm glad that both of you are members of SD as I've learned a great deal from both of you. Don't resort to personal attacks and insults. All it does is turn people away from learning and it's pointless.

[ShinShin]

What is it with you guys that have to go to every forum on the internet and be "THE" expert in every aspect of the tropical fish hobby? Do you see discus people being the Koi expert on your Koi forums?

Your post shows that you have missed my point entirely on many levels. Think what you want, but like I said, until you have done it, don't talk about it. :)

Mat

[DiscussDiscus]

"Only a fool in here would think he has anything to prove." - B.Dylan

I think we can collectively say that there are two big and very different camps on this with benefits and pitfalls on both sides of the issue. No need to drag it out any further, the initial question was answered many times :)

Regards,
Lee

[Graham]

What is it with you guys that have to go to every forum on the internet and be "THE" expert in every aspect of the tropical fish hobby? Do you see discus people being the Koi expert on your Koi forums?

Your post shows that you have missed my point entirely on many levels. Think what you want, but like I said, until you have done it, don't talk about it. :)

Mat

Larry it's really really easy to do when hobbyists are giving out crap info based on very little/limited knowledge or info. I've personally had fish in every aspect of this hobby, let alone the retail end of it. I think I've got a pretty good handle on it. :rolleyes:

[brewmaster15]

Enough Guys,


The question was asked about QT...please share your opinions and experiences everyone...but when people start stating these opinions and experiences as facts and criticising others opinions and experiences...it always gets personal and heated...

A simple...

"I do this" ...followed by any explanation is good enough in a topic as volatile and vague as this......then let the hobbyists decide on their own.... Even the scientists that determine the protocols used by public aquariums and zoos recognize that quarantine of fish needs to be open ended and species dependent...


FISH

GENERAL COMMENTS:

Quarantine standards for other zoo and aquarium animals cannot always be applied to fish, and adaptations must be made to the proposed procedures as they apply to fish populations. Proper and appropriate fish quarantine is a vital component of any successful health management program for fish. Quarantine procedures must be tailored to individual species and require greater variation than quarantine for other zoo and aquarium animals. It is in the interest of accredited institutions to carry out quarantine procedures that are both effective and practical, leading to improved animal health.

Fish are usually acquired as populations, not as individual specimens, and individual identity may be impractical to establish. Few aquariums have the facilities and/or space to properly maintain large fish specimens in separate life-support systems, making individual quarantine of these specimens difficult. Aquariums may operate as open or semi-open systems, and specimens acquired from the surrounding waters of these institutions may not benefit from rigid quarantine procedures due to constant introduction of potential disease organisms. Veterinarians may be part of the team supervising the quarantine, but the institution should appoint the staff it feels has the best expertise to supervise and operate the quarantine program. It is appropriate to note that state and federal hatcheries do not often employ veterinarians, yet have well-established and internationally recognized fish health programs of which quarantine is an important factor.




SPECIFIC RECOMMENDATIONS

QUARANTINE FACILITY:

Where appropriate, separate life-support systems (LSS) with the ability to quarantine fishes should exist. The LSS should be operated in such a way as to preclude disease transfer from one system to another and/or introduction into natural waters. Quarantine tanks should have viewing that is adequate to observe the fish for behavior and signs of pathology; the LSS should be adequate to maintain the health of the quarantine population. If an aquarium does not have a separate LSS, it should have the ability to divert flow through the quarantine systems, bypass the common filter, and discharge the water. Disinfection of the discharge water prior to release is advisable. In addition, discharge of this water must comply with federal, state, and local environmental regulations.


QUARANTINE LENGTH:

A quarantine period of 30 days is an adequate standard; however, it must be recognized that certain species or disease problems may require more or less time.


QUARANTINE PERSONNEL:

The institution will appoint the staff it feels has the most expertise to supervise and operate the quarantine program. All equipment (boots, nets, cleaning equipment, etc.) should be confined to the quarantine area. Access to and from the area should be restricted so as to minimize cross-contamination. Precautions must be taken to minimize the risk of zoonotic disease to personnel.


QUARANTINE PROTOCOL:

Each institution must have a written quarantine protocol. During quarantine, appropriate prophylactic measures should be instituted. Complete medical records should be maintained for the specimens during the quarantine period. Fish that die during quarantine, or a representative sample thereof, should be necropsied. Care must be taken that all equipment used with quarantined fish is separate from other systems. (If this is not possible, adequate disinfection procedures must be employed before equipment is used for post-quarantine fish.)


REQUIRED QUARANTINE PROCEDURES:

Because of the great diversity of fish, required quarantine procedures are difficult to establish. The institution should follow the guidelines stated in the above sections to fashion a quarantine program best suited to their needs.

Source...http://www.aza.org/Accreditation/Documents/AccredStandPol.doc




This is what I do this at my hatchery......

"My qt is a 6 week period.... when I get the fish in I let them rest a few days as their slime coat is often damaged in the shipping....then I will treat them with Praziquantel to remove any tape worms ...1 treatement is sufficient if no worms are seen.. a second is needed if the fish expels worms......next I treat them with Formalin baths every other day for up to 4 treatments...I feel this helps diminish the chance of external parasites.... salt dips can work there as well.. Next I deworm with levamisole , a general dewormer or fenbendazole(mixed in the food.... never added to the tanK) Last I treat the fish for any obvious issues like bacterial infections or
internal parasites indicated by feces, behavior or microscope.

I never pre treat for bacterial infections that are not there yet ...

I may substitute Potassium permanganate (PP) for the formalin baths.


Finally I use test fish from my existing stock which I add to the Quarantine tank and observe for 2 more weeks."

This is what I do...works for me...helps me keep 2000 gals of discus healthy even with frequent introductions of new stock. Not asking anyone to accept it as how to qt...its what I do based on my experience, biology background and research, and works for me with my frequent additions of numerous fish to my collection and breeding program.


HTh,
-al

ps...I would encourage everyone to research every chemical they use and form your own opinions.


pss..
You all may find these links interesting... B

http://www.uwm.edu/Dept/EHSRM/ACP/AQUA/Aquatic_Organism.doc
http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/FA099
Theres a bunch more if you search for them on the net..."biosecurity" in aquaculture is a big topic these days.

[bs6749]

There is usually more than one way to solve a problem. Both of you have differing experiences and opinions but that doesn't mean that one of you is right and one of you is wrong. Both ways could be equally effective and surely there are pros and cons of each stance here.

The pros to Mat's approach, which I believe is the correct approach for my fish, far outweight the cons IMO. If there IS something present, it will be taken care of by using the treatments that he described. This can prevent a parasite from going unnoticed and affecting a whole tankful of fish in the future, say when hooked up to a central filtration system. Note that Mat's approach is to get rid of COMMON maladies. He isn't recommending that we treat all of our new discus for every disease out there, rather he is suggesting a few medications that will treat a large number of them, more specifically the commonly occuring ones. He stated that he treats for tapeworms in wild specimens, which more commonly have tapeworms when compared to domestically bred fish. He said that he doesn't treat for tapeworms in domestics that he knows haven't been fed foods that may harbor these parasites. He isn't just dumping medications into the tank hoping that whatever the fish may have will be irradicated through their use. In fact, Mat stated that when he only gets in a couple new fish that he will take fecal samples and look at them rather than medicating them, which woud possibly cause stress to the fish. It sounds to me like Mat is cautious with the use of his meds though he understands when they are necessary to be used.

More often than not, the benefits of using a medication largely outweigh the risks associated with their use. If they didn't, why would there be meds? Aren't we using them to get BETTER and not worse? Isn't that what a medication is? Granted, there are medications that have been discovered to be bad and they have been removed from the shelves. This usually comes after several years of using them. The meds that Mat recommends have been used for much longer than several years, and are still in use today, so they must not be as bad as everyone irrationally fears them to be.

The cons to Mat's approach are that overdosing may occur permanently harming a fish or causing the fish death. This isn't the fault of the medication, it's the fault of the hobbyist and it's why Mat's approach may be better suited for seasoned aquarists. It's like calling guns bad because "they kill people". In the wrong hands guns CAN kill people, but their primary use is for protection and defense, much like meds. Granted, the average hobbyist may lack the knowledge necessary to treat/dose for fish diseases but that's why the bottles have labels and that's why there are forums like this where people can ask experts, such as Mat and Graham, what the proper methods would be and their experiences in similar situations.

In my opinion, Mat's advice is more sound in this instance, as he has numerous years of DISCUS keeping and experience to support his recommendations. Fish are different and the same practices may not always be applicable. If it were koi, the opposite would be true and Graham would be the one to trust, again...in my opinion.

It's always best to get the experts' opinions and though we have two fish experts here, one happens to be a discus expert and the other a koi expert. Both of them may be correct in their respective areas, but both of them most likely have limited experience in the other's field of expertise and that's why. This doesn't mean that general knowledge couldn't be transferred from one are to the other, it simply means that if I were looking for knowledge specifically pertaining to DISCUS, there would be no reason for me to disagree with Mat's expertise.

[Graham]

Not sure why you're fixated on koi...I've kept all fish over the years. I had 80 aquariums in my parents basement at 16...wild discus included. I had marines for years, then a couple of reefs.

All through this I managed retail pet stores, had an interest in a small chain at one point; importing and transshipping thousands of fish.

If you feel nuking the crap out of your fish for no identifiable reason is the way you go ...have at it.

I must go and call my doctor and get set up for a round of chemotherapy, then radiation then a course of Vanomycin, I can probably de=wrom myself with OTC meds ....just in case :rolleyes:

[ShinShin]

Graham,

I don't exactly know what you may be talking about or should I say whom you are talking about. I had a small hatchery with ~40 adult discus at any given time, at which time I would have as many as 9 mated pairs with 5 pairs carring fry or with eggs at a time. I had 24 tanks set-up, with 6 spares ready to go. I supplied 5 mom and pop fish shops in Western Washington before the big chains put them out of business. Alot of this was before the internet forums. Some after. I have conducted experiments on entire spawns in the area of water and feeding regimes. I have conducted experiments with different chemicals for treating various disease. I am not just some chump with a fish tank. I got my first tank in 1960 and my first discus in 1969, 2 wild pair of browns. I have brought in as many a 36 discus at a time. I'm not a pro, but I know what I know. I learned from the discus masters and trial and error, not some internet expert. I never challenged your knowledge or skills or insulted you in our discussion. I challenged your very opinions on chemical usage, because that's all you offered, opinions, based on opinion. Not facts, only exaggerations to make me look foolish and you an expert. Some might buy into your well spoken opinions. But, some of us rely on fact and the work of people with actual credentials. My staements are not based on opinion, or some overreactions to the word chemical. All of your statements are not based in fact.

I will give you information that will come in handy if you ever to raise a sensitive species of fish. As we know, carp are about the most tolerant fish regarding water quality and disease resistance. This is not a critism, rather to prove the point that a fish is a fish is very wrong thinking to subscribe to. Discus, on the other hand, are amongst the least tolerant and disease resistant. It has to do with how and where they evolved.

From John Gratzek, who's credentials are: Bachelor degree in biology and chemistry, Dr. of Veterinary Medicine and a PhD in animal virology. He is the past president of the American Collage of Veterinary Micobiologists and the International Association for Aquatic Animal Medicine, and at the time of this publication, serves on the aquaculture committee of the American Association of Animal Health, and George Blasiola, who in his own right has a list of qualifications that allows him to be an recognized internationally published scientist. And I quote -

"Although quarantine could be done without any routine administrationof parasiticides, the incidence of parasitism in ornamental fishis enough reason to routinely medicate fish during quarantine." As for formalin, they write - "Formaldahyde at 25ppm (1ml [20drops] per 10 gals. or 38L of water)is considered a long-term treatment for parasites..." . "At this dosage, formaldahyde is considered to be an indefinate treatment and can be left in the aquarium to dissipate gradually".

Now if you notice, they are using formaldahyde. Formalin is only 37% strength formaldahyde.

Further stated, "Mixtures of formaldahyde and malachite green have been shown to be superior to the independent use of either medicant".

Their next step is the use of praziquantel. "... added at 2ppm will remove monogenetic trematodes from both gills and skin... ". "... and is effective in the removal of tapeworms and may kill larval forms of digenetic trematodes". Further in the apragraph - "At 2ppm there appears to be no effect on the biological filter and no toxcity to fish".

NO TOXCITY TO FISH - ;)

Their next step is to rid gut protozoans. "To treat Hexamita, add metronidazole at 6ppm directly to the water". Further - "The drug is apparentyly adsorbrd via skin or gills and appears to be nontoxic even at 20ppm".

That's at 3 times the recommended clinical dosage. They go on with treating for nematodes using fenbendazole or piperazine.

I can go on with literature to disprove your theories, along with actual practices I have done with QT, but the point has been made for any logical thinking that one has.

I believe that ideally, no medications should be unnecessarily, however, using them properly has its place. When a person brings in 1 or 2 fish at a time, especially a hardy species like koi, they are easily observed, scrapings can be taken, fecal droppings examined, etc. and one can treat from there. 10-12 discus juveniles don't afford one much of an oppurtunity to do so. Most wouldn't know how, anyway, or own a microscope. A routine QT prophylactic treatment with the chemicals I mentioned, used properly, offer zero health risk to the fish or the person dispensing the chemicals. I feel you are way overreacting.

Mat

[Graham]

Graham,

I don't exactly know what you may be talking about or should I say whom you are talking about. I had a small hatchery with ~40 adult discus at any given time, at which time I would have as many as 9 mated pairs with 5 pairs carring fry or with eggs at a time. I had 24 tanks set-up, with 6 spares ready to go. I supplied 5 mom and pop fish shops in Western Washington before the big chains put them out of business. Alot of this was before the internet forums. Some after. I have conducted experiments on entire spawns in the area of water and feeding regimes. I have conducted experiments with different chemicals for treating various disease. I am not just some chump with a fish tank. I got my first tank in 1960 and my first discus in 1969, 2 wild pair of browns. I have brought in as many a 36 discus at a time. I'm not a pro, but I know what I know. I learned from the discus masters and trial and error, not some internet expert. I never challenged your knowledge or skills or insulted you in our discussion. I challenged your very opinions on chemical usage, because that's all you offered, opinions, based on opinion. Not facts, only exaggerations to make me look foolish and you an expert. Some might buy into your well spoken opinions. But, some of us rely on fact and the work of people with actual credentials. My staements are not based on opinion, or some overreactions to the word chemical. All of your statements are not based in fact.

I will give you information that will come in handy if you ever to raise a sensitive species of fish. As we know, carp are about the most tolerant fish regarding water quality and disease resistance. This is not a critism, rather to prove the point that a fish is a fish is very wrong thinking to subscribe to. Discus, on the other hand, are amongst the least tolerant and disease resistant. It has to do with how and where they evolved.

From John Gratzek, who's credentials are: Bachelor degree in biology and chemistry, Dr. of Veterinary Medicine and a PhD in animal virology. He is the past president of the American Collage of Veterinary Micobiologists and the International Association for Aquatic Animal Medicine, and at the time of this publication, serves on the aquaculture committee of the American Association of Animal Health, and George Blasiola, who in his own right has a list of qualifications that allows him to be an recognized internationally published scientist. And I quote -

"Although quarantine could be done without any routine administrationof parasiticides, the incidence of parasitism in ornamental fishis enough reason to routinely medicate fish during quarantine." As for formalin, they write - "Formaldahyde at 25ppm (1ml [20drops] per 10 gals. or 38L of water)is considered a long-term treatment for parasites..." . "At this dosage, formaldahyde is considered to be an indefinate treatment and can be left in the aquarium to dissipate gradually".

Now if you notice, they are using formaldahyde. Formalin is only 37% strength formaldahyde.

Further stated, "Mixtures of formaldahyde and malachite green have been shown to be superior to the independent use of either medicant".

Their next step is the use of praziquantel. "... added at 2ppm will remove monogenetic trematodes from both gills and skin... ". "... and is effective in the removal of tapeworms and may kill larval forms of digenetic trematodes". Further in the apragraph - "At 2ppm there appears to be no effect on the biological filter and no toxcity to fish".

NO TOXCITY TO FISH - ;)

Their next step is to rid gut protozoans. "To treat Hexamita, add metronidazole at 6ppm directly to the water". Further - "The drug is apparentyly adsorbrd via skin or gills and appears to be nontoxic even at 20ppm".

That's at 3 times the recommended clinical dosage. They go on with treating for nematodes using fenbendazole or piperazine.

I can go on with literature to disprove your theories, along with actual practices I have done with QT, but the point has been made for any logical thinking that one has.

I believe that ideally, no medications should be unnecessarily, however, using them properly has its place. When a person brings in 1 or 2 fish at a time, especially a hardy species like koi, they are easily observed, scrapings can be taken, fecal droppings examined, etc. and one can treat from there. 10-12 discus juveniles don't afford one much of an oppurtunity to do so. Most wouldn't know how, anyway, or own a microscope. A routine QT prophylactic treatment with the chemicals I mentioned, used properly, offer zero health risk to the fish or the person dispensing the chemicals. I feel you are way overreacting.

Mat


challenged your very opinions on chemical usage, because that's all you offered, opinions, based on opinion. Not facts, only exaggerations to make me look foolish and you an expert. Some might buy into your well spoken opinions. But, some of us rely on fact and the work of people with actual credentials. My staements are not based on opinion, or some overreactions to the word chemical. All of your statements are not based in fact.

Larry you’re a hoot…somewhere along the line you missed something about me…I don’t offer opinions, I offer fact based on science and experience, based on opinions of the vets and researchers that I’ve had contact with over the years. I’m not a basement breeder, I’m just someone that’s has had a lot of varieties of fish both marine and fresh, over 48 years, looked after tens of thousands of fish of every variety over those years, not just a bunch of discus. Would you like for me to list the Aquaculture Vets and researchers that I’ve had contact with over the years and still have contact with who I’ve taken courses from…or how about the local Vets who contact me for some advice….

Dr Gratzek is working for the AKCA trying to help us figure out a cure for KHV…we've been spending tens of thousands of dollars on this yearly ..I really don’t need to be told who he is….:rolleyes . You should attend a koi show you might learn something from the Vets in attendance...the Koi end of thing is so far ahead of the discus hobby when it comes to medical husbandry it isn't even funny

From your comments on carp you don’t know squat about koi and their husbandry…go do some research and you may actually learn something. They’re not a goldfish Go keep a few other species of fish LOL

As to treatment protocols I can find as many Vet’s who’d disagree with you and agree with me as you can imagine. To subject fish to unnecessay chemicals is abuse...Don't get me wrong here as I will use every chemical in the cupboard to make a fish healthy once I know what's wrong with him...no just in case treatments, that's amateurish

You’re a very good basement breeder/dealer who specializes in discus that I would listen to every word that you had to say about behaviour, raising and breeding…over all husbandry you’re not even in the ball park…… you’re willy nilly approach to meds and chemicals is a joke!

We're just going to have to agree to disagree here and you and the other chem whiz's can do what you want :rolleyes:

[pcsb23]

It seems I am left with little option here.

Chaz (cyang) asked for opinions and advice over the various method. It seems that if some peoples opinions differ to theirs then it would seem that it gives them the right to make it personal.

This may be allowed on some forums. Not on this one. I'm all for healthy debate, none of us are too old to learn. Sadly we will learn little else from this thread for now.

I've locked it for now.