Help me please! Cloudy eye discus!

[Jenster]

Hi, my name is Jenn and I am new here to this forum. I have been keeping discus for about 3 or 4 years now. Currently I have six discus in a 55 gallon aquarium: Red Turk, Red Scribble, Blue Diamond, Royal Blue and two Pigeon Bloods. The largest is around 3.5 inches. In with them are three Cardinal Tetras and a Cory Cat (I had two but lost one ever since this epidemic). The tank has been up for almost a year now. I have been checking my parameters and all are fine as of now: Nitrate 0, Nitrite 0, Ammonia 0.

So let me fill you in an what happened. About a week ago I did my typical weekly 20% water change and all seemed fine. Then the next morning I woke to find all six of my discus in the corner of the tank dark with clouded eyes and a white slime on thier sides. Even though they were in this condition they were still eating.

So right away I checked my parameters and noticed that my ammonia was higher than it should be. So I did water changes and brought it back down to where it should be, 0. Things seemed to be getting better, thier eyes were clearing up and the slime was going away.

Well the day after the last water change all the symptoms were back and were much worse. This time their eyes were totally white, not cloudy and the "film" was actually flakey and was sticking out from their eyes. The slime on thier sides was also back and the fish wouldn't come out to eat. I contacted numberous fish people including many LFS and a breeder for help and decided to follow the least invasive treatment which was doing 20% water changes and treating with Melafix at a high temp of 90 degrees. I assumed and was told that this was probably a bacterial infection that occured after the fish became vounerable after the ammonia burns.

So I treated for a full seven days and the slime seems to be gone but thier eyes are still cloudy, not white, but cloudy and a few of the fishes fins are tattered but look like thier healing. They are also breathing heavily and thier gills are hanging out but are not red or discolored. They do respond to me when I go up to the glass but are very timid and hide as opposed to how they used to be which was gleefully swimming around and coming up to the top and begging as soon as they saw me.

So now I am looking for another solution since the Melafix didn't seem to fully treat the problem. Two of my fish are still dark: The Red Turk, and the Red Scribble. My Blue Diamond, Royal Blue and two Pigeon Bloods are showing full color but still have clouded eyes and are hiding. They have been eating but have seemed to have lost thier voracious appetites. I do have Furan 2 that I had bought incase the Melafix failed. But is this the way to go? I have always been afraid of using stronger meds on my discus and was also warned by the breeder that it can stress the fish.

I feel as though I am on my last leg with these guys and I really don't want to lose them. Please let me know if I am heading in the right direction or not. I don't want to lose my babies!!!!!!

Thank You

Jenn

P.S. Sorry I practically wrote a novel!

[Jenster]

As a follow up I finally saw the other side of my Red Scribble, who has been the sickest fish and has been doing the most hiding and not eating like the others and now see that his left eye is "erroded" away and almost gone. I am starting to think that I should have been more aggressive from the get go.....:cry:...this is terrible...

[Eddie]

OOps, I forgot to say WELCOME to simply!!!

Sorry to hear about your fish.

How big are your fish, how often do you feed?

20% WCs weekly is not a good practice w/ discus. With a 55g and 6 discus, your numbers cannot be 0 for nitrates?

Melafix doesn't work, some people say it does but they just don't realize that a simple WC fixed the problem.

Eddie

[Jenster]

Hi Eddie and thanks for the welcome!

Thanks for the consolation, i am having a hard time dealing with my fish being sick but hopefully I can get them back. I just feel so helpless and I am terrified of losing them. If only they could tell us whats wrong!

What do you suggest as far as WC frequency?

My biggest is one of the PBs and he is about 3.5" to 4". The RS, RT and BD are all around 3.5". And the other PB and the RB are around 2.5" to 3". I give them two feedings, one in the morning and one in the evening.

As far as the nitrates reading 0, I have the little dip strips that have the pads that change color according to the water conditions. And nothing is showing up as far as color on the nitrate pad and zero is the block that indicates no color for the nitrates. Perhaps it is because I have been doing 20% WC daily for the past seven days for the treatment?

Yeah I was told that the Melafix was the safest root to go but I think it just allowed time for the problem to worsen. I have had success with it in the past with Angelfish but it obviously was useless here.

I truly appreciate your quick response, thank you!

Jenn

[Eddie]

Hey Jenn,

I wouldn't be able to pinpoint exactly what is wrong with your fish but it definitely seems to be related to the water. How do you change your water? Do you use aged water or straight from tap? What dechlorinator do you use? I am wondering where your got the ammonia from? I am not too keen on the test strips, they don't give good readings. I would invest in another type like Aquarium Pharmaceuticals master freshwater test kit, much more accurate.

Now some have dealt with cloudy eye doing really big waterchanges over a week time frame so I would suggest upping your daily WC to about 50% for the next week. You said they were improving so maybe the eye's will return after a week.

There is definitely a bacteria issue present as well so thats another thing to work out. Can you take a picture of the fish with the eye almost gone?

I would remove that fish to a bucket if you have one a do a short salt dip. Since you have catfish, or corys in your tank I wouldn't recommend adding salt to your 55, although it could help. Catfish are very salt intolerant and not sure if you have plants but plants are too.
(This is only a recommendation, I know this gonna start a huge argument to every known hobbyist known to man but somebody else give advice and try not to argue about the salt!)

Eddie

[Eddie]

Actually, you said you had Furan 2, I would use it. Definitely use it, forget about the salt.

Eddie

[Jenster]

Hi Eddie,

When I change my water I take water straight from tap. And I dechlorinate with API's Stress Coat. I started having ammonia issues when I decided to add live plants to my tank. They have been removed since they were burned by the ammonia and started to rot.

Honestly, this all happened like night and day. The day that I did my typical water change the fish were fine as well as the plants. Then next morning fish had cloudy eyes and plants were discolored. After this I did the water changes to bring the ammonia back down. So I got the ammonia back down then started treating. In a nut shell it was like WC, then all hell broke loose.

I just treated with the Furan 2. It turned the water all yellow, I was told it would do that. I got the picture of the fish but I am having problems with the SD card reader on my computer. I will try to get it worked out as soon as possible and post the pic. I have a laptop with an SD card reader so that may work. Again thank you for your quick response. I will post the pic and keep you updated.

Jenn

[Roxanne]

Hi Jen, welcome to Simply BTW...:)

You won't be showing much nitrates with plants in the water anyway..Jen is this right..it started after a water change during which time you removed plants? Do you have a substrate? If you disturbed bad bacteria/rotten food in the substrate or caught in plant roots it might explain the eyes appearing cloudy "overnight"...I assume you have a substrate if you have plants?

Also, Have you added any new fish lately?

Roxanne

PS Some would call melafix another snake oil....

[1077]

Jen,
I believe both Eddie and Roxanne have hit on possible problems.
I would get the API freshwater master kit. those test kits that use strips are not all that accurate. Some water conditioners detoxify ammonia and chloramines and rely on the tanks biological filter (good bacteria) to render it harmless. If you have aggressively cleaned the substrate lately and or replaced filter material then substantial beneficial bacteria can be destroyed.
Add to that fish poo or possible fish food from overfeeding laying on the substrate and elevated ammonia levels would or could be too much for good bacteria to process.
Water changes for the number of fish you have in 55 gal could stand to be increased to three or four a week . I might consider using a dechlorinator such as PRIME were it me. Are you vaccuming the bottom of the tank once or twice a week?
I might vaccum a small area of the tank say, one third, and a different area each week so as not to destroy too much good bacteria .

I am no expert ,just suggesting things for you to consider. I believe that if you adopt some of the things mentioned and perhaps cut back on food for a time , your fishes water or enviornment will improve and give the fishes immune sytem a better chance at combating what is ailing them.
Perhaps someone can advise you as to proper medication for fish but cleaning up the water is always a good place to start. I do hope your fish recover.

[Eddie]

Hey Jen,

There seems to be alot going on in your tank. Something definitely affected your bio culture. And with the addition of the new plants, maybe you introduced a bacteria. I believe your tank to be going through another cycle, which would explain nitrates reading 0. The stress of your fish from the ammonia/poor water quality allowed the bacteria to take over.

Your existing bio culture is trying to build back up and the use of Stress Coat is making it worse. I'll bet you have chloramines in your water. Stress Coat only breaks the ammonia/chlorine bond but does not detoxify ammonia. So with any WCs, you are pretty much just dumping ammonia in the tank. You filter is getting overloaded. With that, you will probably see a rise in Nitrites which is super lethal for discus. I strongly recommend that you get Seachem Prime for water conditioning. I'd say you can control the ammonia and nitrites with WCs but you can't while using Stress Coat.

Hopefully the Furan 2 can take care of the bacteria infection but please get some Prime and give your fish lots and lots of clean water. Your fish are very stressed from the water conditions and bacteria combined.

Take care,
Eddie

[poconogal]

The first thing I'd do is get an ammonia test kit, also a nitrite test kit and forget about those strips. API makes decent test kits and they are not super expensive. Have you tested your tap water at all? The problem could have come from your tap water which could have knocked your bio filter out of whack. The presence of Ammonia and the absence of Nitrate indicates that your tank is cycling again. Its possible that more chlorine was added to the tap water when you did your WC or they may have added chloramine. When I lived in NYC and used tap water for WCs I always tested the water before any WC. Some days the water would stink of chlorine and some days the PH would be way up.

You said that Ammonia was higher than it should be. Can you give us the reading? I'm not totally convinced that your fish were reacting to a bacterial infection but from ammonia burn instead.

If you haven't already done so, I would start to slowly drop your tank temp back down from the 90 you have it on. If your fish do now have a bacterial infection, the water temp shouln't be raised. Bacteria multiply much faster the higher the water temp and raising it only speeds things up and makes things worse.

If you had ammonia in your tank and did a WC to reduce it to zero its possible that you had nitrite also and of course you can have zero ammonia but have nitrite. Nitrite is even more deadly than ammonia and it would be good to be able to test for it. You can add salt to the tank to prevent Nitrite poisoning (the fish will be breathing heavily, rapid gilling, gasping for air). Dosing recommendations range from 1 tsp. per 10 gallons (I've used that) to 1 tbsp. per 10 gallons or more, depending on how high the Nitrite.

I would get some Prime and use that when you do WCs. I'd add the 1 tsp. of salt per 10 gals. (I have Tetras and Cories and they tolerated that dosage just fine) as an additional protection against Nitrite poisoning.

I think you should up your WCs to at least 50%, at a minimum of once a week, twice weekly would be better but again, I would test your tap for ammonia and nitrites with test kits right away and use the Prime. Also, have you tested your tap for PH changes after 24 hours? You may have to play with the frequency and amount of water you change if you have a drastic difference in your PH after 24 hours out of the tap, so that you don't have drastic changes in your tank after WCs.

A friend's Discus developed some symptoms like your's are having after being infected from a fish that was in QT. She ended up using Maracyn 2 and Quick Cure (FMG), together. They were under parasitic attack first and then developed an internal bacterial infection. The combination of the 2 meds stopped it in its tracks. Also, the Maracyns will not affect the bio filter which it sounds like you have to re-establish, but I think Furan does affect it.

[mmorris]

She ended up using Maracyn 2 and Quick Cure (FMG), together. They were under parasitic attack first and then developed an internal bacterial infection. The combination of the 2 meds stopped it in its tracks. Also, the Maracyns will not affect the bio filter which it sounds like you have to re-establish, but I think Furan does affect it.

It sounds like parasites to me too although cloudy eye is usually a sign of water problems. Can you post a picture?

[Graham]

''...I started having ammonia issues when I decided to add live plants to my tank. They have been removed since they were burned by the ammonia and started to rot....''

Why would a tank that's been set up for 1 year suddenly develop an NH3 problem, to the point where it may have brunt the fish.That's takes a lot of NH3...what was the number?. What changed?

A 20% water change even with chloramined water would not release enough NH3 to amount to a hill of beans let alone burn the crap out of the fish. It would be easily handled by the bio

Why would the introduction of plants cause a NH3 problem. Plants also do not get brunt by NH3 they use it as food. Did the plants introduce a parasite into the tank? Then followed up by a secondary bacterial infection.......which is the way I'm thinking

As Connie mentioned at this point toss the strips out and get decent test kits and post some exact water parameter numbers. A tank 1 year old with only weekly 20% water changes will have NO3 through the roof. I doubt that even the NH3 reading where correct

[Jenster]

Hi everyone and thanks for all the responses and info! I truly appreciate it. This is so much to take in

I do have substrate and I vaccuum my gravel everytime I do my water changes which as I said before I do weekly at 20%. The plants that got damaged have since been removed since they seem to have reacted to what ever was going on in the water and started to rot.

No new fish have been added to the aquarium.

The temprature has been brought back down. I brought it back down after the treatment with the Melafix.

I haven't tested my tap water but I am going to as soon as I get the kits. Which will be today.

I will say that since the Furan 2 things have been looking up. My large PB is acting completely normal and is begging and frantically looking for food. He is full of energy! The cloudiness on his eyes is almost gone. The smaller PB is also acting normal and is begging as well. My RT is begging too he just can't see very well yet as his eyes are still cloudy but I can get him to eat if I squirt food in front of him. I use a turkey baster to distribute thier frozen foods which I clean in a net before feeding, he knows it means food so he swims right up to it. the BD is still hiding and has one cloudy eye but will come out and snatch a worm here and there. The RB is also hiding but also comes out to grab a worm sometimes.

The only fish in my tank that is not showing improvement is the RS. He still looks bad and I think he is totally blind. I tried to get him to eat but no response. When I put the baster by him I got nothing he didn't spook or show any kind of reaction. He is hanging out in the corner near the top of the tank. I don't know what to do with him:(

Today I have to do the 25% water change as instructed by API for treatment with Furan 2 and then continue with a the thrid and fourth doses. I am going to get the test kit as well as the Prime today.

If this is a combination of parasites and bacteria is there anything that I can treat them with while treating with the Furan 2?

I have attached some pictures. Sorry about the quality. My camera has a hard time focusing on the fish while they are moving. I wasn't able to get a shot of the RB since he is hiding behind the large peice of driftwood in my tank.

As soon as I am done with treatment I am going to up my WC's to 50%.

Again thank you all so much for the information and support. I truly appreciate it. I hope I answered everyones questions and apologise if I missed any.

I will keep everyone posted on the discus's progress.

Jenn

[poconogal]

Jenn, you can google Furan 2 with Quick Cure (or FMG) and see what comes up. I don't personally know if the 2 can be used together, I just know that Maracyn 2 with FMG is safe to use together. Good luck.

[Eddie]

Hey Jen, good to hear you fish are doing better, thats great. Guess the Furan 2 is doing some magic.

Take care,
Eddie

[Jenster]

Hello again,

I am glad to say that my fish seem to be on their way to recovery. The RS that I had originally thought was totally blind seems to be able to see as he will react to the turkey baster tip if I put near the side that he still has an eye on. I don't think he knows what it is because he cannot see well enough yet but he knows it there because he does the little "defensive dance". I am still worried about him though since he hasn't ate and is still dark. I really think its just the fact that he cannot see that is causeing all the stress. He swims around and is not sitting on the bottom but he still acts "lost".

the other fish are all beginning to act like themselves again. They are still having trouble seeing which makes eating a bit more of a challenge than normal but they are eating. The two PB are totally fine and just have a slight haze in the middlel og thier eyes. The RT's eyes are still a little cloudy but is eating well. The RB is coming out now and feeding reguarly but is having trouble getting the food as he still has cloudy eyes. The BD only has one cloudy eye and is also eating with the others.

Now I just have to get all the furan out. I have been using prime with the water changes and testing my water reguarly with my new test kit and things seems to be fine. I plan to do two 50% water changes within the next two days to get things back on track.

I noticed that the one eye of the recovered smaller pigeon blood looks a little different since the epidemic happened. His pupil is actually different. The eye that looks different is the one that is still a tiny bit hazy. The pupil of the "funny" eye looks more oblong than it used to be and it never used to be. he seems to see fine he jsut looks different and I thought maybe you guys would have some imput about what may have happened. Ever heard of this before?

Thank you all so much for your help! I am so glad that my fish are feeling better. I can honestly tell you I have been losing sleep over it. I truly appreciate all of the help and support. You guys are the best!

I will still post up dates on the fish as they make it back to thier full recovery.

Jenn

[Eddie]

Hey Jen, glad your fish are doing better. That is really great news. I don't have much input on the eye other than it could have been damaged due to the infection but thats just a guess. Maybe it will return to it's normal shape over the course of a few weeks, not sure :confused:.

Take care and great job! Guess now you can get some sleep.


Eddie