Heckel Abacaxi Golden

[benn2311]

Hi guys
I've got some of these on order and on looking on the net cant actually find anything about them .Any of the experts have an opinion about these as seen some say that they are Willischwartzi Heckel,some say just normal Heckel

[plecocicho]

Wilscwartzi heckels were considered a subspecies of the heckel discus, but kullander declined its subspecies status. Wilschwarti had type locality in Abaxias river, so abaxias heckels and w. heckles represent the same heckel local variety. Please post some pics when you get them.

[Ed13]

Could you post pics after you receive them? Regardless of what arrives;)

[Dan S]

Hello Benn2311,

I take it you mean these lovely little fellows.

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=h27RHw7DbMQ&feature=channel_page

They look great, but I cant find any pics of them as adults.

Dan

[benn2311]

Hello Benn2311,

I take it you mean these lovely little fellows.

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=h27RHw7DbMQ&feature=channel_page

They look great, but I cant find any pics of them as adults.

Dan

Yup they are the ones:) .Getting them from Paul at Discus South gonna be 4 weeks till they are in my tank.When in and settled pics will be forthcoming.I have had the same problem with adult pics hence the topic.

[Dan S]

Hello Ben,

I also have some Heckels on order from Paul. I looked at these but just couldnt find a picture of an adult. They do look great!

Have you got your tank setup already? Any pics?

Dan

[plecocicho]

Those heckels sure look nice.:D

Hello Ben,

I also have some Heckels on order from Paul. I looked at these but just couldnt find a picture of an adult. They do look great!

Have you got your tank setup already? Any pics?

Dan

Ditto

[benn2311]

The tank is a fully mature tank been running for two years now.Inhabitants are 2x urau(6") 5x Brown discus(3") 2x Brochis Splendens(1") and plenty of bogwood.Just in the process of changing to white sand substrate as from what i have read this brings out the colours of heckles better.Will post pics of tank tommorrow.

[benn2311]

sorry they are a day late but couldn't get on site last night

Tank shot

[img=http://img204.imageshack.us/img204/3457/006ar7.th.jpg] (http://img204.imageshack.us/my.php?image=006ar7.jpg)

fish

[img=http://img105.imageshack.us/img105/8159/007yf9.th.jpg] (http://img105.imageshack.us/my.php?image=007yf9.jpg)

[img=http://img204.imageshack.us/img204/6219/008kz6.th.jpg] (http://img204.imageshack.us/my.php?image=008kz6.jpg)

[img=http://img204.imageshack.us/img204/3720/009wd4.th.jpg] (http://img204.imageshack.us/my.php?image=009wd4.jpg)

[erikc]

Hello Ben2311,

I am sorry to say but they do not look like heckels to me. The 1st , 5th and last bars should be more prominent, even in juveniles.

However they do look like beautifull fish and will be most promising. I especially like the one with the solid green/blue shine on it. Good luck and take good care of them :)

[plecocicho]

Those are definetelly not heckels, look like wild brown discus. Nice uaros, how large is tank?

[bavaria36]

I don't think that his Heckels have actually arrived yet

Aaron

[benn2311]

yup heckels are arriving on the 19th of next month:D,and yes they are browns.Tank dimensions are 72"x24"x18"

[erikc]

Sorry Ben :confused:

I'm just very curious because I have never heard of Abacaxi Golden before.

In general Heckel juveniles will present a very lighter coulour which will darken with age.

The Abacaxi's I have were olive green when young and darkened slowly. The horizontal stripes are more grey than blue.

Can't wait to see the fish :D

[benn2311]

Hi Eric
Here's alink to Paul's shop and a pic of the Heckel's i am getting:)

http://shop1.actinicexpress.co.uk/shops/DiscusSouth/index.php?cat=Wild_Discus&ActinicSID=666e354979cbc7a2a8b3e56b315aeebb

[erikc]

Thanks,

Okay I'm not so sure about the fact that they are actualy Heckels. They look more like some amazingly gorgeous natural hybrids (i.e. cross between heckel and "normal" discus).

The latest heckels we have in one tank (seperate post in preparation) were sold as Red Mari Mari Heckels, hmpff :confused:There is a couple that looks just like that picture in your link. Beautifull fish but not true heckels.

Let's see what other people have to say about this :inquisitive:

[erikc]

Just to illustrate my point :

I've never found Rio Red Mari Mari or Rio Golden Abacaxis on the map :)

It seems that the conventions for naming hybrids has seeped into the wildcaught market. How about this : Blue Moon Blueface Heckel :mad:
for an Alpha male/female Nahmundha Heckel (beautifull fish).

Naming conventions for WC's has always been from a specific branch (Rio or Lago) of the Amazon river. Coming up with these names seems rather more in a comercial sense rather than for scientific reasons.

[benn2311]

Hi Eric
I can certainly see your reasoning about it being a wild cross as looking at the video there seems to be a lot of variation in colour and bar paterning(indeed some are not showing any sign of a prominent 5th bar)I will ask Paul view on this,either way I will be very happy once i get them into my tank.Thanks for the input.

[TankWatcher]

Cross or not, that is a beautiful fish i wouldn't mind having in my tank. You can always send them to my house if you don't end up liking them so much :D

[benn2311]

Hi Robyn
I love these fish allready and not in my tank yet lol:D.Although i may be persuaded to give them to you if you pay for my air fare and put me up for a cpl of weeks lol;):D

[illumnae]

Just to illustrate my point :

I've never found Rio Red Mari Mari or Rio Golden Abacaxis on the map :)

It seems that the conventions for naming hybrids has seeped into the wildcaught market. How about this : Blue Moon Blueface Heckel :mad:
for an Alpha male/female Nahmundha Heckel (beautifull fish).

Naming conventions for WC's has always been from a specific branch (Rio or Lago) of the Amazon river. Coming up with these names seems rather more in a comercial sense rather than for scientific reasons.

I don't think the "red" and "golden" are referring to the river. rather, it's to differentiate colour and hence add some value (ie increased price) to the fish. I'd read "Red Mari Mari Heckel" as a Heckel from Rio Marimari that is red in colour, and "Golden Abacaxis Heckel" as a Heckel from Rio Abacaxis that is golden in colour :P

[Dan S]

I don't think the "red" and "golden" are referring to the river. rather, it's to differentiate colour and hence add some value (ie increased price) to the fish. I'd read "Red Mari Mari Heckel" as a Heckel from Rio Marimari that is red in colour, and "Golden Abacaxis Heckel" as a Heckel from Rio Abacaxis that is golden in colour :P



Hello Illumnae,

I totally agree!

Dan

[plecocicho]

Those are definetelly hybrids between blue/brown discus and heckle discus, very nice fish. Blue/brown discus live in Rio Canuma drainage that is relativelly near heckel habitats (Rio Abaxias). Rio Marimari and Rio Abaxias are real geographical names. Keep us updated and post a lot of pics and of course description of your setup.
Erikc dont forget to post a short description of your setup too in the upcoming post.:D

[illumnae]

Based on Heiko's book (page 174 photo 4), I think I have heckels from Rio Abacaxis. They're golden brown in colour...are they the Rio Abacaxis goldens?

Photos can be found here:
http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?t=66782&page=4

[mckchu]

I also have an order for 30 of these fish from H&K, expect to arrive next Saturday. I believe these are natural hybrid, as I was told all the fish shows the 5th bar but intensity depends on mood, but there's so much variation on the color pattern. The fish background color is amazing...

I wonder if hybrids in the wild will ever breed true? Or so much variations that they remains sparious populations that comes and go ...

Once I get the fish, will send some pictures...

[mckchu]

Based on Heiko's book (page 174 photo 4), I think I have heckels from Rio Abacaxis. They're golden brown in colour...are they the Rio Abacaxis goldens?

Photos can be found here:
http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?t=66782&page=4

illumnae,

The fish in your other post looks like true heckel, whereas the golden Abacaxi looks like hybrid... My 2 cents...

[mckchu]

FYI ... some of the Abacaxi Golden Heckel Cross pictures - still at holding tanks in Brazil ..

[Paul Lucas]

I believe these are natural hybrid, as I was told all the fish shows the 5th bar but intensity depends on mood, but there's so much variation on the color pattern. Yes, these are natural crosses and very nice fish to boot;)

I suspect Eric is being a bit mischievous here when talking about the names and locations of these fish.
[How about this : Blue Moon Blueface Heckel :mad:
I might point out that the wording on the Nhamunda Blue's we have for sale are/is "Wild Blue Moon/Blue Faced Heckel" and further on in the description it says they are from the Rio Nhamunda. Now, what the description is saying is that they are Wild Blue Moon Heckels sometimes called Blue faced Heckels. It is purely to differentiate the various colour variants in the Rivers and lakes. If some people want to take it to the very literal meanings then so be it but I see nothing to be gained by it.

It's a shame Eric that you so obviously do not have Heiko's book as a reference. It's one which has been hailed as an icthyological work of art and would have been a lot of help in your looking for the Rio Mari Mari:) Over 600 pages packed with pictures, facts & information about the Amazon, it's wildlife and people

Page 174 Mari Mari Heckel variants and yes, a very nice Golden Fish there too:)

Paul @ Discus South

[Eddie]

You getting the golden heckel cross?

[benn2311]

You getting the golden heckel cross?

If you are asking me the answer is yes:D

[Eddie]

Oh okay, I thought you were getting the Heckels. The Heckel crosses look nice. Must be a cross with a brown to get that nice golden color. They are nice.

Eddie

[benn2311]

Oh okay, I thought you were getting the Heckels. The Heckel crosses look nice. Must be a cross with a brown to get that nice golden color. They are nice.

Eddie

Yup was some confusion over what they are exactly hence the thread .That seems to have been sorted out now that they are a wild heckel cross.Still a very nice looking fish which i am looking forward to getting.

[Eddie]

Yup was some confusion over what they are exactly hence the thread .That seems to have been sorted out now that they are a wild heckel cross.Still a very nice looking fish which i am looking forward to getting.


They definitely are very exquisite looking. Post pictures when you get them settled in.

Eddie

[erikc]

Based on Heiko's book (page 174 photo 4), I think I have heckels from Rio Abacaxis. They're golden brown in colour...are they the Rio Abacaxis goldens?

Photos can be found here:
http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?t=66782&page=4

Illuminae,

The appleation "golden" is misgiving. My Rio Abacaxis Heckels were the same coulour when younger. They are beautifull fish though and the striations will intensify when they get older. I must say it is pretty rare to see so many with ruby red eyes.

[erikc]

[QUOTE=Paul Lucas;500077]Yes, these are natural crosses and very nice fish to boot;)

I suspect Eric is being a bit mischievous here when talking about the names and locations of these fish.

Paul,
please accept my apologies, yes I was being mischievous but I did not intend to offend. It is already confusing in the WC market to find where the fish come from. I do value highly the fact that you are selling high quality WC's (something very rare) :thumbsup:

It's a shame Eric that you so obviously do not have Heiko's book as a reference.

Yes I do have Heiko's book, also HJ Mayland's, Axelrod's (several) etc. I do remember the time before internet and such widespread quantities of information which can be misleading ;)

[Heiko Bleher]

Hi guys,

this is Heiko and just for the sake of it:

the Heckel discus shown from SIN (those from illumnae) are definitely S. discus and no crosses what soever.

Noiw those people here are talking about on this thread, I have to see. But if they are, as mentioned above, same or similar to my book page 174/4, that they are 100% Heckel discus as well and no cross whatsoever. And if "Golden" or not, that is just an addition one is trying (to my experience) to give to a fish to get more money from it.


The only more or less established names for Heckel discus natural variants (except for the correct location name - naturally) are:
1. Blue head (or headed) Heckel discus (which I discovered first in the early 1970s in ther Xeruini), and the
2. almost Solid blue Heckel discus in the Rio Nahmundá, in 1997. And the latter now they call, as Paul mentioned: Blue Moon, or whatever (to sell better?).

But at the end of the day, these are all beauties and just color variants in nature, as with many other living species.

Thank you Paul for your nice comments and congratulations for the nice fishes you received (sometime friends can be helpful...). And alo Plecochico for the correct comments.

Always

Heiko Bleher

[mckchu]

Hi guys,

this is Heiko and just for the sake of it:

the Heckel discus shown from SIN (those from illumnae) are definitely S. discus and no crosses what soever.

Noiw those people here are talking about on this thread, I have to see. But if they are, as mentioned above, same or similar to my book page 174/4, that they are 100% Heckel discus as well and no cross whatsoever. And if "Golden" or not, that is just an addition one is trying (to my experience) to give to a fish to get more money from it.


The only more or less established names for Heckel discus natural variants (except for the correct location name - naturally) are:
1. Blue head (or headed) Heckel discus (which I discovered first in the early 1970s in ther Xeruini), and the
2. almost Solid blue Heckel discus in the Rio Nahmundá, in 1997. And the latter now they call, as Paul mentioned: Blue Moon, or whatever (to sell better?).

But at the end of the day, these are all beauties and just color variants in nature, as with many other living species.

Thank you Paul for your nice comments and congratulations for the nice fishes you received (sometime friends can be helpful...). And alo Plecochico for the correct comments.

Always

Heiko Bleher
www.aquapress-bleher.com



Hi Heiko,

Recently, we got a shipment of fish from a good Brazil exporter - the fish arrived in excellent condition, and we got what we ordered!

One of the type of fish they sold was called "Heckel Cross" ... these fish have the characteristic 5th (also 1st & 9th) bar very dark and prominent, but their color varies a lot even within the shipment. Enclosed are 3 of the so called "Heckel Cross" ...

As stated in your book, page 200, there are some S. haraldi with prominent 5th bar, so are these natural hybrid of Heckels or really S. haraldi?


Thanks,

Michael

[benn2311]

Hi Guy's
Well they are here :DTook delivery of them at 8am and they are at the moment in their bags floating in a 5gal bucket in their bags in tank water.I am going to slowly place tank water into the bags over the next hour or so to equalise the ph etc ,then they will be placed into the tank.I must really thank Paul & Ange for all their help and congratulate Ange on her packing skills :thumbsup:the heat packs are still warm to touch.After a 12 hr journey i imagined them to be lying on their sides,but no they were swimming around looking really alert.Pics will follow once settled in.
Happy Day's:D
Paul

[Eddie]

Hi Guy's
Well they are here :DTook delivery of them at 8am and they are at the moment in their bags floating in a 5gal bucket in their bags in tank water.I am going to slowly place tank water into the bags over the next hour or so to equalise the ph etc ,then they will be placed into the tank.I must really thank Paul & Ange for all their help and congratulate Ange on her packing skills :thumbsup:the heat packs are still warm to touch.After a 12 hr journey i imagined them to be lying on their sides,but no they were swimming around looking really alert.Pics will follow once settled in.
Happy Day's:D
Paul

Sounds great! Post pictures when they get settled. Glad they are doing well

Eddie

[erikc]

Can't wait to see the pictures :bounce: :)

[benn2311]

Can't wait to see the pictures :bounce: :)
don't expect award winning pic's as my photographic ability's are dire:D and they will be from my phone camera

[benn2311]

Ok guys here some pics glass could do with a clean though:D
[img=http://img3.imageshack.us/img3/6412/148h.th.jpg] (http://img3.imageshack.us/my.php?image=148h.jpg)

[img=http://img160.imageshack.us/img160/5393/151o.th.jpg] (http://img160.imageshack.us/my.php?image=151o.jpg)

[img=http://img160.imageshack.us/img160/3192/147u.th.jpg] (http://img160.imageshack.us/my.php?image=147u.jpg)

[bavaria36]

They look fantastic. Nice body shapes. How old do you think they are ?

Aaron

[benn2311]

They look fantastic. Nice body shapes. How old do you think they are ?

Aaron
I wouldn't like to hazard a guess Aaron as they are from wild I don't know the feeding regime at the exporters and how long they had them .All I know is Paul had them in for 4 weeks before shipping them to me.The largest is 4.5" and the smaller one 4" and are in perfect condition a testament to H&K discus and Paul's care

[plecocicho]

Nice wilds. Post more information about the tank that they are in and some more pics and maybe even some short movies.

[Eddie]

They look very nice, best of luck with them.

Eddie

[FLGirl1977]

Love that cross! They look beautiful. Post more pictures when you get a chance! :)

[Dan S]

Hello Paul,

They are looking great. They settled in quickly.

Dan

[bavaria36]

Love that cross! They look beautiful. Post more pictures when you get a chance! :)

I got a bit lost in this thread ... Are they crosses or not ? Heiko suggested that the ones from Singapore were not crosses but what was the consensus on these ones ?

Aaron

[TankWatcher]

Hey, they look nice. Best of luck with them.

[Eddie]

I got a bit lost in this thread ... Are they crosses or not ? Heiko suggested that the ones from Singapore were not crosses but what was the consensus on these ones ?

Aaron

No, they are crosses. Heiko was referring to another members Heckels.


Eddie

[benn2311]

cheers guys whether they are crosses or not I am Delighted with the quality andall the plaudits should go to Paul & Ange for sourcing and conditioning them as well as H&K Discus for the same.Without such excellent exporters and suppliers we fish keepers wouldn't receive such excellent stock.Here's more pics as well as one of their new home.

[img=http://img27.imageshack.us/img27/635/001pdh.th.jpg]

[img=http://img7.imageshack.us/img7/6470/005j.th.jpg]

[img=http://img239.imageshack.us/img239/5903/156c.th.jpg]

[plecocicho]

Larger pics would be awesome.

[erikc]

Beautifull fish indeed, take good care of them:thumbsup:

Some larger pictures would be appreciated ;)

[benn2311]

hope these work:)


[img=http://img73.imageshack.us/img73/6360/001j.th.jpg] (http://img73.imageshack.us/my.php?image=001j.jpg)

[img=http://img131.imageshack.us/img131/3476/156m.th.jpg] (http://img131.imageshack.us/my.php?image=156m.jpg)

[img=http://img131.imageshack.us/img131/2730/006wea.th.jpg] (http://img131.imageshack.us/my.php?image=006wea.jpg)

[erikc]

Very nice indeed :D
I'll have to upload some more recent pictures because I have two Marmari's that look like them. Strange because I had never seen heckels like that before :)

[benn2311]

I am very happy with the colour and quality of them.It will be interesting to see if the royal markings that are showing very faint at the moment come through stronger with age whilst the red on the fins changes intensity dependant on mood .The largest also has red markings around the pectoral fins

[plecocicho]

Discus look real nice and i do like the setup. Could you be so nice and post in the thread your wild discus setups a short description of your tank, e.g. volume, tank measurments, water parameters, filtration, lightning, wc regime,..

AND more pics.:D

[erikc]

It will be intersesting to see. The royal markings should come through but how intensly is any one's guess. Promising fish indeed :)

Don't forget to have a varied diet for them, flakes or pellets with spirulina seem to work well for my heckels. Enjoy them and keep posting :thumbsup:

[benn2311]

Ok guys here's the the low down on the tank
72"x18"x24"
7 large pieces of bogwood
3x Brown discus
2x Abacaxi Golden discus
2x Uaru 6"
1x L190 6"
Because of the large bogwood the volume is approx 110gals
water change is 20 gal daily
lighting is 1x40w gro-lux 1x36w bluemoon
filtration is by 2x Fluval4 internal filters
Feeding regime is 1x fbw 1x Sera granured 1xHikari Discus sticksplus floating plants which the Uaru graze on and Nutrafin Spirulina algae tablets
Ph 7.5
substrate is medium grade sand

[fishfarm]

Crosses are common in wild shipments, some of the fish I have gotten in the last few years. Almost every shipment some of the blues have a faint heckel bar. Ken

[Rod]

Beautiful discus Benn, love the shape and the bar 5, very nice. :)

[Eddie]

Your tank looks great Ben, it's a big dog. I'd love to have a tank that size. Plus I'd like to have those discus. :D

Best of luck with them

Eddie

[erikc]

Hi Benn, any updates ?

[Apistomaster]

Crosses are common in wild shipments, some of the fish I have gotten in the last few years. Almost every shipment some of the blues have a faint heckel bar. Ken
Hi agree completely with Ken. Hybrids are not that common but this color variation shows up to a certain degree where ever S. haraldi are found.
That is what I have seen presented so far as Abacaxis Heckels, hand picked Blue/browns with accentuated bars similar to but not the same as Heckels. However, in ErikC's avatar, those fish look like the golden form of Abacaxis Heckels. Don't believe they are a subspecies of Heckels but definitely a valid color variant.

[Eddie]

Any updates Benn?

Eddie

[blkrob]

Are there any updated photos to be posted? I really like to see how your fish have progressed.

Thanks

Robert

[sfdiscus]

Hi Benn - Those are beautiful heckels - can I ask who you bought it from and how much can I expect to pay for Mari Mari/Abaxci? thx