Fish problems

[petra_reuter]

Hi everyone...I've been a lurker here for a while but this is my first post and I could really use some help. Having sick fish is no fun.

Problem

1. Please explain the problems with your fish/when and how they started
I noticed a lot of white, stringy feces back in December and treated for those. I now have two out of four fish who are hiding, dark and don't seem to be eating as much; one just started doing it this week. Both of these fish will also have random freakouts where the tear around the tank like crazy, flipping around. (it's very stressful for both me and them). The pigeon blood is also swimming partially on it side most of the time. My pigeonblood has just started this behaviour in the past week.


2. Symptoms (i.e. turning dark, excess slime, not eating, clamped fins, flashing, darting, clamped gills, white/yellow/green poop, hiding, headstanding or tailstanding, white on tips of fins, rotting or fungus, blisters/ white zits on fish, bloated, cloudy eyes, wounds)

Not eating well, clamped fins, hiding, colour loss, 1 of the fish is swimming on an angle. My brown discus appears to have a scar on his forehead from running into the tank so hard.

3. What medications/ treatments that you have already tried and results. Include dosages and duration of treatment.

Treated with general cure in December - no effect
Treated with Prazi-Pro twice in Jan - got rid of stringy, white poop

Tank/Water

4. Tank size and age, number and size of fish
55 gallon tank running since August with 4 discus 3-4 inches (stunted when I got them) and 1 albino pleco (3 inches) and a clown pleco (2 inches)


5. Water change regime/ how long has tank been running/ bare bottom or gravel/ do you age your water?
50% water changes either every day or every other day depending on how much time I have. Tank is barebottom but has a bubble wall running across the back. For filtration I have an aquaclear 70 with 1 sponge and two biobags in it. Water is treated with prime and added to the tank; I don't the space to age the water unfortunately.


6 Parameters and water source;

- temp __30C (80ish F I think?)___

- ph ___6.4__

- ammonia reading __0__

- nitrite reading __0__

- nitrate reading _0___

- well water ____

- municipal water __yes__

7. Any new fish/plants added recently
Not a one.

I'd really like to try and resolve this issue as these fish have given me nothing but stress and heartache since they arrived. I know now that they weren't in the best shape when I got them (thanks lfs!) and I have lost 2 out of 6 fish already. I have two that are eating well and acting normal, the pigeonblood was fine up until the past week so I'm really not sure what has happened. The tearing around the tank and not swimming upright really has me worried.

I have a 20gallon planted tank that is perfectly healthy and stocked with 2 angels, some tetras, plattys and a couple of corries and a heavily planted 10 gallon betta tank (yes, he is a very spoiled little bugger, 10 gallons all to himself) so I can't be completely incompetent.I have never had any problems with either tank but the discus are just killing me. I love them and really just want them to be healthy. Thanks in advance for any possible advice.

[Eddie]

Hey there and welcome to Simply! I am very sorry to hear about the news but I am sure somebody can help you.

You mentioned that you used General Cure.....what was the dosing schedule?

I know about what the box mentions but that is too long to go without another dose. From what it sounds like, your fish may have recovered some but still are not 100%. I would personally go for another GC treatment.

Basically use the amount box says but dose twice a day. Once in the morning and once again after 8 hours. Do a 50% water change between every dose. Keep your tank lights off through the course of treatment. The tank temperature would be best kept at 92F throughout treatment and for 7 days after. I would do the twice a day dosing for 4-5 days. I know some people dose longer but I have had success with less days and if the problem doesn't get fixed, you may need to run another course for a longer number of days treating.

If you can get the fish into a smaller quarantine tank, it will be best because you can keep the temp high easily and you will have to use less meds. Dosing in a large tank will be wasting alot of the meds.

Now this is just my opinion and others may have other ideas but since your fish had the white poo once and still not better, I feel they need another round with stricter guidelines.

Please don't hesitate to ask more questions.

HTH
Eddie

[petra_reuter]

Hi Eddie,
I dosed following the box instructions which if I remember correctly (it's been a while) was 1packet per 10 gallons and I did 2 doses. As for moving the fish to a smaller tank I have two options...I can either switch them out with the angel tank (20 gallons) or I could put them into the 10 gallon betta tank for the course of treatment. Either way I'm guessing I'll have to unplant either tank to do this, right? I think I would have some very unhappy sword plants if I pulled everything from the angel tank.

Thanks for the advice!

[Eddie]

You could also use a storage tub.....always an option. You just gotta make sure you fill it to an amount that would be feasible, like a 10 gallon bucket.

The instructions on the box is exactly what you said. Those are not effective, maybe in extreme mild cases but not effective.

I'd do the schedule as I mentioned, every 8 hours, twice a day for 4-5 days.

Eddie

[petra_reuter]

I do have a giant rubbermaid container I could use, they might now be the happiest fish in the world but it's better than what I'm dealing with now. What should I do re: filtration of I put them in the rubermaid container...I don't think my filter would work on it.
I think cleaning out the betta tank might be the best bet as I'd have to leave the rubbermaid on the floor and knowing my luck someone would kick it over. 10 gallons should be big enough for the course of the treatment though, right?

[Eddie]

I do have a giant rubbermaid container I could use, they might now be the happiest fish in the world but it's better than what I'm dealing with now. What should I do re: filtration of I put them in the rubermaid container...I don't think my filter would work on it.
I think cleaning out the betta tank might be the best bet as I'd have to leave the rubbermaid on the floor and knowing my luck someone would kick it over. 10 gallons should be big enough for the course of the treatment though, right?

Oh yeah, ten gallons is perfect. I'd recommend taking everything out of the betta tank. Have it totally barebottom.

[petra_reuter]

That was my plan - it needs a good trimming back anyway, no time like the present and that poor betta will never know what hit him when I toss him in the 55. Would you reccomend feeding as normal throughout the course of treatment?

[Eddie]

That was my plan - it needs a good trimming back anyway, no time like the present and that poor betta will never know what hit him when I toss him in the 55. Would you reccomend feeding as normal throughout the course of treatment?

I would feed lightly as to not foul the water. The high heat and excess food combined with the meds will build alot grime. Especially in a 10 gallon.

One word of advice. General Cure in a powder form is best mixed in a shaker bottle with about a cup of water. I find that warming the water in the microwave for about 30 seconds is sufficient. Then add the powder med and shake the bottle. Hold the lid down well or else it will pop open in your face....I only know that from experience....:o
Eddie

[petra_reuter]

Yeah, I discovered that after treating last time I was stirring my tank because of undissolved powder

Also, I'm assuming I should treat all four discus but should I also treat the plecos? They seem to be ok.

[Eddie]

Yeah, I discovered that after treating last time I was stirring my tank because of undissolved powder

Also, I'm assuming I should treat all four discus but should I also treat the plecos? They seem to be ok.

I think the plecos will be fine without medicating but you could treat the four discus.

Eddie

[petra_reuter]

My pigeonblood died today, I didn't have time to get to the fishstore due to work and school so I haven't been able to get the general cure yet. Should I still treat the rest of the tank? Tw of the fish are acting perfectly normal but the other one is hiding a little/a bit dark. I'm getting so discouraged with these fish, they're so beautiful but I've now lost three out of six and it's really sad. Maybe I shouldn't get so attached...

[Eddie]

Wow Petra...so fast. What meds do you have on hand? I am sorry to hear about your loss.

Are the water parameters all good? Ammonia, nitrite nitrate etc?

Thats very quick to die all of a sudden.

Eddie

[petra_reuter]

Ugh, I know that's partly why I'm so upset, I didn't even have a chance to fix the problem. I only have prazi pro on hand I'll try to pick up some general cure over the weekend. Unfortunately my lfs doesn't have it in stock at the moment so I can't pick it up until then since I have to go out to the big pet store which takes forever.

Water parameters are all good. It's so distressing that a fish that seemed perfectly healthy last week is now dead. The other fish I lost I expected too, I knew something wasn't right but losing this one really breaks my heart.

Also, I took a lot at the fish after it died and the gills looked nice and red so I'm guessing that there was some sort of internal/bacterial issue.

[Eddie]

What about the numbers for the water parameters?

Are the water parameters all good? Ammonia, nitrite nitrate etc?

Eddie

[Graham]

Hi go to Aqua Nations on Sp Garden Rd and get some Ich X it's formalin& malachite green. This should stop the dying

[petra_reuter]

Hi Graham, what will the formalin and malachite green treat? I just want to know what I'm dealing with here. I was planning on going to Aqua nation soon so I'll pick some up. I spend far too much time and money there.

Eddie, here are the parameters....
Nitrate & Nitrite - 0
Ammonia - 0.25ppm
pH - 6.8 (has spiked since last night)

I think I'm going to get a sponge filter this weekend to hopefully up the biological filtration.

[ShinShin]

Sounds to me that you have an internal bacterial infection. I think that the stringy white feces disappearing with the prazipro was purely coincidental. Tapeworms are about the only gut problem prazi effectively kills. Formalin and malachite green is great for external problems, but with a gash in the head, could be lethal. They should never be used with skin breaks or lesions. It will not help any internal problems, either. It will treat ectoparasites only.

Mat

[petra_reuter]

The gash appears to have healed - it was on the fish that was originally freaking out, who appears to have stopped the behaviour. So, one fish dead due to bacterial infection...do I treat the entire tank? I really don't want any more loses.

[ShinShin]

petra,

It is hard to diagnose over the internet. From your symptoms, I'd guess that. I would look at a fecal sample here at home to rule out nematodes and flagellates. You can't do that. I would treat the tank. You said zero nitrates. Are you sure? That is almost impossible with fish in the tank.
Mat

[petra_reuter]

Well, I'm using an API test kit and that's what the result was. I realize it's hard to diagnose over the internet and I'm truly thankful for all of the advice. So, go ahead and treat with general cure?

[ShinShin]

I don't know what that is. Kanamyacin is absorbed, so I'd go that way.

Mat

[petra_reuter]

http://aquariumpharm.com/Products/Product.aspx?ProductID=62

That is a link to General Cure, it is a broad spectrum treatment. Where would I be able to find kanomycin?

[Eddie]

Hey there Petra,

Kanamycin is for internal becteria infection. API General Cure is metro/prazi mix and effective for flukes and flagellates. Depending on what you have, it's your choice. I know you attempted to use General Cure initially but didnt follow good guidelines. Plus you said the powder just collected on the bottom. I'd try the General Cure again but mix it in the bottle as I mentioned and dose the way I suggested. If it does not help, there are other options as others have mentioned.

HTH
Eddie

[pcsb23]

Petra,

I don't mean to confuse you here so apologies if I do :o.

You had 4 discus in a 55? these are now in a 10? and you have lost one (the PB). The 10 was planted and had a betta in there which is now in the 55 with the plecs? If I've got this right then there is a risk that whatever was wrong with the discus will now be passed to the betta,via the plecs and/or the 55.

I would have lowered the water level in the 55 to halfway, if I'd have done anything. Maintaining water quality throughout a treatment is important.

I would also sterilise the 10gallon before putting the plants and betta back in there afer you have finished treating the fish.

Of course I may have got the wrong end of the stick here so if I have please accept my apologies :)

I suspect there may be more than one thing going on with these fish so you may need to do a series of treatments to sort them. Sadly it is often the case with lfs bought discus, I wish it wasn't.

fwiw I would guess at a bacterial infection too.

[petra_reuter]

Hi, I didn't move them, as the fish died before I had a chance to do anything.:( I think I'll drop the level and try an antibiotic. Or maybe the general cure... Thanks again for the advice.

[Graham]

Hi Petra, The as mentioned the F&MG is for external parasites.

While this maybe a bacterial infection I don't see any symptoms of one from what you've described.


....Not eating well, clamped fins, hiding, colour loss, 1 of the fish is swimming on an angle. ....

....It's so distressing that a fish that seemed perfectly healthy last week is now dead. The other fish I lost I expected too, I knew something wasn't right but losing this one really breaks my heart.....

Then you've used a couple of meds that would handle flukes and hex without any change in the fish's current symptoms. In fact you've lost another one quite quickly.


Treated with general cure in December - no effect
Treated with Prazi-Pro twice in Jan - got rid of stringy, white poop

At this point I'd be going in another direction, that's why my suggestion of the F&MG and knowing the local stores

[petra_reuter]

I understand the reasoning and I'll probablypick some up tonight. I really just want healthy fish. Thanks again!