Metro tabs not dissolving

[scolley]

I've got some fish in quarantine, and one might have hex, so I'm treating with Fish Zole (250mg tablets).

I've read about crushing them. I am - reducing them to fine powder with a hammer. And I've read about putting them in warm water and stirring. So I'm stirring (like a fool) them into warm water (625mg/liter powder to water ratio in stirring container). But the stuff still does not dissolve fully. I wind up with a LOT of white powder at the bottom of my QT tank.

Am I doing something wrong?

Thanks,


PS - my QT tank is 92 degrees F.

[Graham]

it's not unusual for anytablet meds not to dissolve cp,pletely. In just about all cases the insoluble precipitates are just inert binding medium and it doesn't affect the drug at all

[scolley]

Cool! Thanks Graham!

[waters10]

I got that same metro tabs from Dr F&S and the same thing happened. I now only use pure metro powder from Jehmco. Sooooo much easier to dissolve (requires a lot of shaking still) ...

[TankWatcher]

After I crush them, I add tank water with an eyedropper, drop by drop. Mix with each addition. You will get a paste & then it will dissolve. Ok, so it will not be 100% dissolved, but this way has worked the best for me & comes pretty close to being fully dissolved.

[Roxanne]

...Robyn, I had a flashback to watching you dissolve the metro in just a little bit of water when Steve said how much water he used...I did that too Steve so I had to put it in a sealed container and shake the hell out of it...but it doesn't all dissolve anyway, because Graham says it's only binding crap left over, I'm not worried now..

Rox

[scolley]

Thanks folks. Metro is a real PITA huh?

After 4 days treatment at 333mg metro / 10g tank water, administered twice a day, the fish in question has improved (biting food and spiting out vs. not even trying to eat), I've got to question whether I diagnosed this right or not. But if I DO have to get more metro, I'm going to get it from Jehmco!

Thanks for the help folks!

[TankWatcher]

Give the eyedropper method a try - pretty easy

[Roxanne]

Thanks folks. Metro is a real PITA huh?

After 4 days treatment at 333mg metro / 10g tank water, administered twice a day, the fish in question has improved (biting food and spiting out vs. not even trying to eat), I've got to question whether I diagnosed this right or not. But if I DO have to get more metro, I'm going to get it from Jehmco!

Thanks for the help folks!

Hi Steve:)

Hell Yes to the first part:D...R U trying the epsom with it? I think you're right with the diag because I've had one not eating then spitting food out and I've treated for everything else..lol...so Metro HAS to work!!

Rox

[scolley]

Robyn - about your eyedropper method... how are you mixing the paste? With what? As I understand it, Metro is a carcinogen, and I've been loathe the actually touch the stuff (another PITA about metro). So I'm hoping you are not mixing with your finger.

Rox - I'm diagnosing hex not only because of the food behavior (not eating), but also because all other behaviors are normal, except that the fish in question is a shade less "social" than the other fish. I attribute that to being the omega fish - lowest one on the totem pole. Which I'm also assuming caused enough stress to bring on hex when the others did not succumb.

Also it's the typical white poop story. Not segmented - I've seen worms. And quite tubular. Looks exactly like some poop I saw here that received a metro diagnosis. But I've got to keep in mind the real possibility of that being stomach lining due to not eating. So while hex is not certain, it seemed the most prudent place to start.

Problem is, these fish have been in quarantine for 6 weeks now, and I've already run through 2 full courses of Parasite Clear, a med with both Prazi and Metro. Followed packaging instructions to the letter. But did not raise the temps as is often recommended here for metro treatments. So it's odd that two weeks after the last Parasite Clear treatment, the fish comes down with what could be hex. Would seem to indicate that either...

1) It's not hex. Or...
2) The treatments did not work because I didn't raise the temps. And/or...
3) The treatments did not work because this is one of those nasty strains that requires higher dosages.

So, IMO my course of action is...
1) Finish this course (last day today - day four)
2) Regret that I can't extend it if I wanted to. I'm out of metro.
3) Leave the temps up for 4-5 days and observe. While...
4) Trying to induce eating with garlic laced food and/or CBW (don't have any now). Then...
5) Decide if I did not succeed previously because I did not use a high enough concentration of metro. Or...
6) Decide another treatment, like antibiotics (unlikely to be beneficial as the fish did not get worse when I dramatically increased the temps).

And as you suggest Rox, there's always Epsom salts. But I've seen bloat, and this does not appear to be it. Though I suppose I could try it a day or two from now, and see if it helps. As I understand it, it's fairly benign.

[TankWatcher]

Robyn - about your eyedropper method... how are you mixing the paste? With what? As I understand it, Metro is a carcinogen, and I've been loathe the actually touch the stuff (another PITA about metro). So I'm hoping you are not mixing with your finger.with the underneath or rear part of the teaspoon sandwiching the crushed metro powder between the rear of the teaspoon & the side wall of my mixing container. I use a circular motion, rubbing it into the water, not stirring it in. Hope that makes sense
:)

[Eddie]

Hi Steve,

Just thought about jumping into this one. I personally do not like PC because you can't really use a strict dosing regiment. The recommended dosing schedule that I have read and used is twice a day, once every 8 hours. PC has a funky schedule that doesn't seem to be practical. The amount of metro is also the minimum amount where in some stubborn cases of Spiro, a higher dose may be required. Another thing to think about is light sensitivity of the med and the high heat that many use. I never knew metro was light sensitive until Robyn metioned something about it from reading an article on Discus Page Holland.

They say that most fish have Spiro (Flagellates) and that an otherwise healthy fish can go unaffected by them. Once there is a stresser involved or improper diet to keep the immune system at its prime, the flagellates take over.

I think I would go with what you are planning on doing, keeping the heat up and just wait until you get the metro.

Hope it works out for you Steve,

Eddie

[TankWatcher]

Robyn - about your eyedropper method... how are you mixing the paste? With what? As I understand it, Metro is a carcinogen, and I've been loathe the actually touch the stuff (another PITA about metro). So I'm hoping you are not mixing with your finger.with the underneath or rear part of the teaspoon sandwiching the crushed metro powder between the rear of the teaspoon & the side wall of my mixing container. I use a circular motion, rubbing it into the water, not stirring it in. Hope that makes sense

I have never used Parasite Clear, but read here on SD that there is mixed results with the product. Perhaps the metro portion of the med is not sufficient to be an effective dose or it was not used for long enough. Antibiotic treatment should be dosed for 10 days. What I have read is that metro is light sensitive, so tank should be in darkness during treatment. I know that many here recommend raising the temp for metro, but an article I have on spiro / metro from DPH says that metro may lose effect either side of it's optimum temp, so leaving temp around 29-30 deg is fine IMO. Paul also recommends not to raise the temp.

Other than this, I don't know what else to suggest.

:)

[TankWatcher]

In case it is helpful, here is the sprio article both Eddie & I mention http://article.dphnet.com/cat-02/spironucleus.shtml

[Roxanne]

..Also...I was wondering why you were only dosing at 333mg/10gal even though twice a day...I'm doing 400mg at the moment...for 10 days as Robyn said...

If someone who knows more than I do about anti biots, they can confirm that a not high enough dose/long enough treatment may help the bad bugs to build a resistance to a lower dose... next time, if there is and I hope not mate;) you may have to hit higher, harder and longer...

and PITA doesn't quite nail the word I'm thinkin of:D

Rox

[waters10]

Going back to how to dissolve metro tabs from Dr F&S, it's possible and I guess the white stuff that doesn't dissolve doesn't matter. I tried vinegar, acetone and distilled water. And I have to say, after trying both, there's no comparison which one is easier to dissolve. Plus it's cheaper ...


But if I DO have to get more metro, I'm going to get it from Jehmco!
Hope you don't need more! :)

[Roxanne]

it's not unusual for anytablet meds not to dissolve cp,pletely. In just about all cases the insoluble precipitates are just inert binding medium and it doesn't affect the drug at all

:)

[scolley]

with the underneath or rear part of the teaspoon sandwiching the crushed metro powder between the rear of the teaspoon & the side wall of my mixing container. I use a circular motion, rubbing it into the water, not stirring it in. Hope that makes sense
:)Perfect sense. Thanks Robyn. Will try it if it comes to that!


...I personally do not like PC because you can't really use a strict dosing regiment. The recommended dosing schedule that I have read and used is twice a day, once every 8 hours. PC has a funky schedule that doesn't seem to be practical. The amount of metro is also the minimum amount where in some stubborn cases of Spiro, a higher dose may be required. Another thing to think about is light sensitivity of the med and the high heat that many use.Thanks Eddie. I see so much of that light sensitivity discussion in various places. But it can't be absolute - as in it must still work, even with light. If metro did not work without turning off the lights, this community would KNOW it. Point is, it definitely works with lights on... What's unknown is how much better if might work if they were off.

As to the Parasite Clear, some discus people that I REALLY respect swear by them. So they can't be all bad. But I do suspect there is a lot of merit to your thought that the doses may be too low to deal with stubborn problems. That in itself could explain my problem.



I have never used Parasite Clear Robyn, but read here on SD that there is mixed results with the product. Perhaps the metro portion of the med is not sufficient to be an effective dose or it was not used for long enough. Antibiotic treatment should be dosed for 10 days. What I have read is that metro is light sensitive, so tank should be in darkness during treatment. I know that many here recommend raising the temp for metro, but an article I have on spiro / metro from DPH says that metro may lose effect either side of it's optimum temp, so leaving temp around 29-30 deg is fine IMO. Paul also recommends not to raise the temp.I'll just "ditto" what I just said about the light and the PC. But good point about the temp. Thanks! Seems there's a range of opinions on that too.



In case it is helpful, here is the sprio article both Eddie & I mention http://article.dphnet.com/cat-02/spironucleus.shtml
I read that. Thanks! What a great article. They recommend 84 degrees too (for those of us that can't speak Centigrade). More points in the "don't raise your temps" column. ;)



..Also...I was wondering why you were only dosing at 333mg/10gal even though twice a day...I'm doing 400mg at the moment...for 10 days as Robyn said...Well Rox, the reason for 333mg/10g was simple. I knew that two prior PC treatments had left me with this problem. So if metro was what was needed, I assumed standard dosages would not suffice. But I had limited tabs. I only had enough for 4 250mg tabs per dose in my 29g tank twice a day for 4 days. The math is approx 333mg/10g. That 333 is solidly more than the old standard of 250mg. But clearly less than the 500 people talk about now for stubborn cases. And I could have bought more to up the dose. But I was conscious of the fact they had recently gone through two rounds of PC and I wasn't overly enthusiastic about pushing the dosage anyway - wasn't sure how much more medication they could take.

As for the 10 days... I thought that was for standard antibiotics. Isn't 3-5 days the recommended treatment period for metro?



...And I have to say, after trying both, there's no comparison which one is easier to dissolve. Plus it's cheaper ...


Hope you don't need more! :)
Thanks! I ordered more from Jehmco today. MUCH cheaper. ;)


And now the big news....

After much hand-wringing over my "non-disolving metro", and much help from my friends here (Thanks!), the four day course at 333mg/10g twice a day was over. And I tossed in some Garlic Guard laced FBW, and the fish ATE! First time in weeks! And then for good measure, pooped when it was finished. The normal kind. :) Seems funny to smile about fish poop. But it worked for me this morning. :o

I fed FBW twice more today, with eating both of those times too. Granted, I haven't been using Garlic Guard before today. Could that be it? I dunno. Did four days of metro, slightly over the "normal" doses" do it? I dunno. High temp? Dunno. All of the above, or some combo? Wish I knew.

But it's eating now. :)


Thank you all very, very much for the help. Really.


PS - I do recognize that I might be dealing with a stubborn case here, and that a relapse is possible. And if so, it will be Jehmoco powdered metro, for 500mg/10g, for longer (10d?), and probably mixing that stuff into a paste with a spoon. Though I also know from Graham... what does not dissolve, does not matter! ;)

[Eddie]

Sounds like good news Steve!

The light and temp may have direct correlation on the amount of time the metro stays active in the water. I guess thats why they recommend a dose twice a day after 8 hours. Thats all I can really think of.....:o

Good luck and hopefully there will be no relapse.

Eddie

[waters10]

PS - I do recognize that I might be dealing with a stubborn case here, and that a relapse is possible. And if so, it will be Jehmoco powdered metro, for 500mg/10g, for longer (10d?), and probably mixing that stuff into a paste with a spoon. Though I also know from Graham... what does not dissolve, does not matter!
I think I have one of these stubborn cases. I went through a 7 day course, with the first 4 days dosing 500mg/10 gallon every 8 hours with a 30% water change before dosage. And then from day 5-7, once a day 500mg/10 gallon, with 40% water change before dosage. It worked wonders on this particular fish. After the 3rd day, he was eating again.

But now, a week and a half after the treatment, this same fish is starting to show same symptoms again, spitting out and I saw some slimy (not totally white) poop ... I'll try to isolate this fish now and repeat treatment and see if he gets better. I'm actually hoping it's only hex and not a case of the dreaded cryptobia ... :(

[Eddie]

I think I have one of these stubborn cases. I went through a 7 day course, with the first 4 days dosing 500mg/10 gallon every 8 hours with a 30% water change before dosage. And then from day 5-7, once a day 500mg/10 gallon, with 40% water change before dosage. It worked wonders on this particular fish. After the 3rd day, he was eating again.

But now, a week and a half after the treatment, this same fish is starting to show same symptoms again, spitting out and I saw some slimy (not totally white) poop ... I'll try to isolate this fish now and repeat treatment and see if he gets better. I'm actually hoping it's only hex and not a case of the dreaded cryptobia ... :(

I would go through another round of treatment but when he starts eating, feed him foods laced with metro. This will be a 1-2 punch for the pesky flagellates and should bust them down to nothing.

If your fish has a stressor, it is what allows the Spiro to overcome the fish. Might look into seeing if there is something else stressing your fish also.

Eddie

[TankWatcher]

pooped when it was finished. The normal kind. Seems funny to smile about fish poop :) But it worked for me this morning :o That would work for me too. The first normal poop after seeing only white slimy ones is a cause for celebration :balloon: :balloon: :balloon:

[Dkarc@Aol.com]

If relapse does occur I would be thinking possible cryptobia infection :( We have had this happen with our malawi cichlid broodstock late last year. Treated, relapse, treated, relapse, necropsy. Necropsy confirmed case of moderate cryptobia. Not fun.

-Ryan

[scolley]

If relapse does occur I would be thinking possible cryptobia infection :( That WOULD be a bummer Ryan. Since you've posted this, I've gone back and read up on that little bug, and it sounds like a bummer.

The thing I've got to consider now, is the possibility that these new fish being quarantined picked up whatever they have IN the quarantine. They certainly seemed healthy enough when they arrived, and for more than a month after that, until 1 stopped eating.

And the idea that I'm actually giving fish something in the quarantine would be consistent with the fact that I've had a few other "new" fish develop signs of hex AFTER I put them in the show tank, and had to treat the whole tank. I treated the whole tank for hex, and they got better. That was about eight weeks ago. And guess what now? I've got a fish that is exhibiting signs of hex again - primarily not eating - one of the same ones as before.

So I've got to consider that I've got something happening that is recurring, and that is possibly remaining active in my quarentine. Where I've been assuming that after all the meds, that tank is clean as a whistle.

Cryptobia is one possible explanation for that. Under dosing metro (less than 500 mg/10g) is another. :(


PS - All 5 fish are not just eating now, with the metro cleared from the tank, and temps still at 92 - their metabolisms racing - they are eating like starving pigs! All of them.

[Eddie]

Good luck with the treatment Steve and hope everything works out in your favor.

Eddie

[TankWatcher]

I see so much of that light sensitivity discussion in various places. But it can't be absolute - as in it must still work, even with light. If metro did not work without turning off the lights, this community would KNOW it. Point is, it definitely works with lights on... What's unknown is how much better if might work if they were off.Steve, I did a google search a while back, the search terms being Metro & Light sensitivity. Enough came up in relation to the drug being light sensitive for me to give this credit. Plus on the flip side, it can't possibly hurt to have the lights off - so I'm taking no chances.

Plus it was already known on other forums (apart from DPH - although perhaps they got it from there).

[waters10]

If relapse does occur I would be thinking possible cryptobia infection We have had this happen with our malawi cichlid broodstock late last year. Treated, relapse, treated, relapse, necropsy. Necropsy confirmed case of moderate cryptobia. Not fun.
I think this would be the worst thing that could happen ... :( I hope this is not mine and Scolley's case ...

[Dkarc@Aol.com]

I think this would be the worst thing that could happen ... :( I hope this is not mine and Scolley's case ...
Yeah, it pretty much is a worse case scenario (controllable, not curable). We still have our malawi broodstock as they are still producing eggs (not transmitted vertically), but we will have 6-7 die each week....stop eating and slowly dying off. Once we get setup for our new stock, the Malawi's will be put out to pasture in an isolated pond on the farm (better than the other option). Not sure what info you have read, but Google: Cryptobia, IFAS. That will pull up the UF publication on Cryptobia.

-Ryan

[Eddie]

Yeah, it pretty much is a worse case scenario (controllable, not curable). We still have our malawi broodstock as they are still producing eggs (not transmitted vertically), but we will have 6-7 die each week....stop eating and slowly dying off. Once we get setup for our new stock, the Malawi's will be put out to pasture in an isolated pond on the farm (better than the other option). Not sure what info you have read, but Google: Cryptobia, IFAS. That will pull up the UF publication on Cryptobia.

-Ryan

Ryan,

In one of John's articles it seems that he found a cure for it. Is this not a proven way of eliminating cryptobia?

http://home.flash.net/~tcichlid/cryptobia.html

Eddie

[Dkarc@Aol.com]

Ryan,

In one of John's articles it seems that he found a cure for it. Is this not a proven way of eliminating cryptobia?

http://home.flash.net/~tcichlid/cryptobia.html

Eddie
You can only treat for the symptoms, but it is not totally curable due to the parasite's life cycle and their ability to survive within the immune systems macrophage's. From my experience it is a stress induced disease (our malawi's were harvested weekly...very stressful). It is possible that majority of all discus in the market have this, but you wont recognize it 99.9% of the time since it mirror's symptoms for sprio/hex. It is mostly brought on by chronic stress (shipping/new tank acclimation for example). People treat it as spiro/hex and move on once they are eating well. Reduce the stress, treat the symptoms (metro/dimetridazole) and things usually go back to normal. It is still there, but most of the time wont show itself until the fish is chronically stressed again. Even then it may show up just because. My professor has dubbed it the fish disease "anti-Christ" (one of those stress relief humor moments...). We have given up trying to treat 2,500+ gallons of broodstock water with no promised results. The treatment itself might be more stressful than their current stressor, which is why we are opting to just place them in an isolated pond and let nature take its course. Not much additional work has been done on this subject to my knowledge because discus are not a high volume/high dollar fish compared to other species...no money involved in the research.

-Ryan

[Eddie]

Thanks Ryan, I did read about it being alot like Spiro and how it can pretty only be contained and not eliminated. I guess it's all we can do at the moment. Guess the ticket is keeping these little guys in a stress free environment, with good food and water.


Eddie

[Dkarc@Aol.com]

Unfortunetly, there are no meds out there which can penetrate the macrophage's....then again, would we want such a medication that could (immunity issues)???

-Ryan

[scolley]

It is possible that majority of all discus in the market have this, but you wont recognize it 99.9% of the time since it mirror's symptoms for sprio/hex... Reduce the stress, treat the symptoms (metro/dimetridazole) and things usually go back to normal. It is still there...
This is exactly what I've been wondering about Ryan. As a novice, I didn't want to pipe up and say "Hey, if this is stress induced, looks like hex, brought in line (temporarily) with Metro, who's to say that this bug is not pervasive in the ornamental discus population?" So I'm glad to see that view expressed from someone with more authority.

While the future will only tell if I personally have a fish with "recurring hex", but I've got to ponder the ethical issues it raises now...


Should I lock down my stock - never to leave my tanks, to reduce the risk to other hobby populations?
Or should I let a "healthy" fish out of my tanks, if they are presented with some form of honest warning? One like "This fish appears healthy, but there have been fish with some form of recurring hex in its tank."
And isn't it fair to say that whatever I "should" do, every other hobbyist with a fish with any form of recurring hex should do also, for the very same reasons?


If there truly is the "anti-Christ" of fish diseases out there threatening our discus populations, IMO such measures should be considered if we are going to rid ourselves of it. Though I doubt it would ever happen, because it will all be for naught if the discus vendors don't also follow suit. And due to the economic impact of that, I suspect there's no way that's ever going to happen.

[waters10]

You can only treat for the symptoms, but it is not totally curable due to the parasite's life cycle and their ability to survive within the immune systems macrophage's. From my experience it is a stress induced disease (our malawi's were harvested weekly...very stressful). It is possible that majority of all discus in the market have this, but you wont recognize it 99.9% of the time since it mirror's symptoms for sprio/hex. It is mostly brought on by chronic stress (shipping/new tank acclimation for example). People treat it as spiro/hex and move on once they are eating well. Reduce the stress, treat the symptoms (metro/dimetridazole) and things usually go back to normal. It is still there, but most of the time wont show itself until the fish is chronically stressed again. Even then it may show up just because. My professor has dubbed it the fish disease "anti-Christ" (one of those stress relief humor moments...). We have given up trying to treat 2,500+ gallons of broodstock water with no promised results. The treatment itself might be more stressful than their current stressor, which is why we are opting to just place them in an isolated pond and let nature take its course. Not much additional work has been done on this subject to my knowledge because discus are not a high volume/high dollar fish compared to other species...no money involved in the research.
See, this scares me quite a bit! Specially the bolded part! Because if you search around on this forum, people that cryptobia ended up culling everything, bleaching all equipment and starting over. But if the bolded part is true, then there's a good chance you might find it again in the future ...

Ryan, do you know if we can ship a fish somewhere to get this diagnosed? From that UF article you mentioned, it seems like it's more complicated than getting a microscope and doing it ourselves.

Scolley, sorry for derailing your thread ...

[scolley]

Scolley, sorry for derailing your thread ...
No apology necessary.

I've long since gotten the answer to my original question, and have since been happy to see the thread move on to more pressing topics.

I think this is a powerful topic. One worth serious discussion. As such, I'd encourage someone to open this topic up in another thread, if only because it will be more easily identified to forum members by a (hopefully) more representative new thread title. But if no one is inclined to start a new thread o on this topic, I forthwith relinquish any claim on this thread. My queries have been answered, so proceed at will... ;) for I'd love to see more fruitful dialogue on this topic.

[Dkarc@Aol.com]

See, this scares me quite a bit! Specially the bolded part! Because if you search around on this forum, people that cryptobia ended up culling everything, bleaching all equipment and starting over. But if the bolded part is true, then there's a good chance you might find it again in the future ...

Ryan, do you know if we can ship a fish somewhere to get this diagnosed? From that UF article you mentioned, it seems like it's more complicated than getting a microscope and doing it ourselves.

Scolley, sorry for derailing your thread ...

Well it scared me too after I personally had a confirmed case of it MANY years back. I read that paper and talked to Roy and his team. I did just as you stated....bleached everything and started over. The source of the parasite is still unknown. At one point in time, it was thought that the leeches found in CBW were a possible carrier (and I think that claim was proven through a few various websites). Personally, I wouldnt worry about it too much. Just be sure to get high quality stock and take good care of them. When in doubt, you are most definetly able to ship them off to a diagnostic lab. I wish I could recommend Roy and the UF facilities, but they only deal with the farmers in FL. To be quite honest, I dont know of anywhere else as we have only gone through Roy there at the lab. Im sure if you do a quick search here on SD you'll be able to find a few good labs to work with.

-Ryan

[Graham]

Contact Vicki Vaughn (vvaughan@uga.edu) at the U of Georgia. They run a diagnostic lab. This is where we ship koi for testing. She may be able to help

She'll also be at the Orlando koi show

http://www.cfks.org/

[Roxanne]

...Though I doubt it would ever happen, because it will all be for naught if the discus vendors don't also follow suit. And due to the economic impact of that, I suspect there's no way that's ever going to happen.

Think you're right Steve....for the first time I bought a fish last week though visually no problems, I'm EXPECTING it to have SOMETHING and will treat it accordingly...that's all we can do unfortunately...amazingly, I scoped nothing in the water in the bag it came in, but I still don't accept it is "clean" because now I know better, and I know LFS do NOT do waterchanges like we do and they throw new stock into old tanks, I see sick fish in with healthy fish ALL the time, they don't QT, and I think the only way around it, is for them to raise their standards or get out of the industry...we need to support only breeders with standards and reputation cos this will force the morons out of the market eventually..I understand your fear, I feel fear when I think of introducing it to my other fish after QT....

I'm seriously considering starting a web page to target all these bad discus traders worldwide and force them to get some education/integrity by embarrassing the crap out of them publicly:argue:. I'm sure it would be just a list of all the Fish Hobby Shops in the world less a bunch of reputable dealers...Sends a clear message to them that if they want to deal in sick/bad discus, they won't last long. That WE, the Discus Hobbyists will NOT allow it....People Power Steve..that's what we need here...:bandana:

Roxanne

[scolley]

I'm seriously considering starting a web page to target all these bad discus traders worldwide and force them to get some education/integrity by embarrassing the crap out of them publicly:argue:
That WOULD be cool Rox. I'd be happy to point people a site like that often in my own postings. Unfortunately you can't do anything like that here in the States - you'd lose every thing you have from being sued so often. Maybe you can do that in Australia.

Unfortunately, I'm not sure how much it's going to do for the problem. It'll help, but I've got to look at my own situation as an interesting example. I've only ever purchased discus from three sources. And each of those sources are among the highest reputation people we have on this board. But still something nasty got in to my tanks.

Granted, I DO have a community tank. So one tank has shrimp, ottos, loaches, tetras (and even some dwarf cichlids for a little while). So they could have been a source. But ALL of those were quarantined, and hit with metro, prazi, and FMG before making into my show tank.

I guess my point is, you can stick with highly reliable sources, and quarantine everything, and provide prophylactic medication in quarantine, and still get some nasty critters.

And FWIW - I started a 10-day three times a day, 500mg/10g metro dosing regimen today. After two days of vigorous eating, that same fish started spitting food out again yesterday. Bummer.

[Roxanne]

...yeah one of mine isn't eating yet either after metro...it's taking alot of the fun out of the hobby...

I'd only expect to get sued if I made an untrue statement about somebody. But, if consumer groups are allowed to report on unfair practices or unscrupulous vendors without being sued, I see it the same way;)....I was more referring to the sick/stunted LFS variety on sale for rediculous prices.

I've got a web page that exposes rip off merchants and dangerous/drunk drivers and I haven't been sued yet...yet:D

Rox

[pcsb23]

Not eating during a metro treatment is not uncommon, particularly on the higher dosing regimens.

[scolley]

Paul - In both Rox and my case, the issue is not so much not eating during the metro treatment, but not eating after the treatment. Thanks.

[Roxanne]

Paul's for sure right about them sometimes being off their food, before, during and after treatment but it's stressful to know they won't eat and you wonder how long it can go on for...and I'm scared to try live food again now....which might actually be the only way to tempt mine to eat...have you tried live foods Steve?

Rox

[scolley]

Nope Rox, I haven't. Thanks for the suggestion though. We have access to CBW here in the States, and discus go INSANE for them. So that's always a last ditch option. Luckily I don't need it...

This da*ned fish is driving me nuts! It goes off its feed. It's eating again!

So it wouldn't eat, but after 5 days of metro and starts eating like a pig. That was earlier last week. And it continues to eat heartily for a few days, and then stops eating again (or rather eats, but spits it out). So yesterday I decided to do the full, 500mg/10g metro course (only twice a day though), and today (the 2nd day), that da*ned fish is eating like a pig again! :mad:

What am I supposed to do. Keep it in a constant metro bath? :confused:

Just kidding. I'm gonna finish the 10 days. But this is wacky.

[Roxanne]

It's cool Steve, I'm a little woo hoo myself with the whole metro trip...has anybody seen my zen? we shall overcome dude:D...are you a poopy scoper like me, or is that a rude question?:D

Rox

[scolley]

I not sure I know what a poopy scooper is Rox. But I can tell you there's very little poop in the tank. I'm using it as my test tank for my new "super poop sucker" contraption. And twice a day that poop gets automatically sucked out of the tank and down the drain. That tanks stays pretty clean without me ever touching it. ;)

[Roxanne]

. Thanks for the suggestion though. We have access to CBW here .

errr.....just for clarification, that was a question, not a suggestion...I'd have to PM you my true thoughts Steve:D


Poopy SCOPER not scooper..lol