Pimples (bug) keeps coming back.

[joe l]

Tank 65g 2 cannisters and sponge cleaned eveery 2 weeks.)Probably guity of overfeeding.0 am-0 nitrite-nitrates below 15, 2 x 30-40 water change weekly.
Barebotton,potted amazons.
Fish 4 adults been in tank 18 months 1 juvie been in 6 months.

About 6 week ago bought some frozen brine and two of the fish waited for me to feed this.Tried to force them to eat pellets ,flakes and these two were not even interested in Fbw. but after two weeks I noticed the one fish had small holes in forehead.Treated the tank with 2 doses Metro and made a batch of beefheart mix which I ran out of about 4 months ago.After 7 days of daily w/cs and feeding beefheat- shirmp the holes went away and was looking good.THen small pimples came on each side of the ones fishes head.Put him in a salt bath for 30 minutes and that knock the pimples out and after a week again started to look good.Then pimples returned so another salt bath and I swabbed with peroxide the holes where the pimples fell out.Pimples are back again. It`s only the one fish,age unknown could be an older fish.I added approx 2 teaspoons per 5g to the main tank.The fish kinda hangs out in the corner about 20% of the time,a little bit unusual.Will eat beefheat and still loves the brine shirmp, and sometimes fbw and a niible at flakes snubs pellets.. Nobody pushes this fish around,he is the largest 5.5 sl ,but minor aggression in the tank.Looking for advice on how to proceed.Poop is normal.

[joe l]

Edit additional info not correct

[ShinShin]

Treat with malachite green/ formalin product daily for a week, changing 25% water daily. I would try upping the water changes after that to at least 25-30% every other day.

Mat

[joe l]

Thanks ,I should be able to get Kordon Formalin 3 and Mal green.Should I put him in a salt bath to knock the pimples out first,there currently is one on both sides .

With these meds do I dose just the 25% of the daily water change or add a full dose to the tank daily.

[Patr1ck]

Thanks ,I should be able to get Kordon Formalin 3 and Mal green.Should I put him in a salt bath to knock the pimples out first,there currently is one on both sides .

With these meds do I dose just the 25% of the daily water change or add a full dose to the tank daily.

Full dose

Pat

[poconogal]

Kordon makes Rid Ich which is formalin and malachite green together already.

[ShinShin]

If you want to salt dip them first, go ahead. I recommend a salt dip prior to treating for ectoparasites, then place them into the tank with the medication already added.

Mat

[joe l]

After 24 hours the fish started perking up and chasing the bottom 3 around at feeding time protecting the food for his girl whom is not that intersted in eating and neither is he,The other 3 eat like pigs.

I actually I`m having some sucess with my cheap microscope by clipping the q tip and putting that on the slide.I`m seeing round things on all the fish ,plenty of them and after 4 treatments of Rid Ick they might be getting smaller in size but not in numbers.THey die within 30 second or so but I don`t see any twirling at all.I`m leaning towards Ick rather than Trichodia.Tank is 85-86ish.Should I go 90 or higher.The instruction on the bottle says for stubborn cases treat every 12 hours ? good Idea.Ammonia -nitrite still zero.
The one same fish has one pimple,no other pimples on anybody else,does not look Ickish like salt but rather a white worm,1/8 inch.

[Eddie]

After 24 hours the fish started perking up and chasing the bottom 3 around at feeding time protecting the food for his girl whom is not that intersted in eating and neither is he,The other 3 eat like pigs.

I actually I`m having some sucess with my cheap microscope by clipping the q tip and putting that on the slide.I`m seeing round things on all the fish ,plenty of them and after 4 treatments of Rid Ick they might be getting smaller in size but not in numbers.THey die within 30 second or so but I don`t see any twirling at all.I`m leaning towards Ick rather than Trichodia.Tank is 85-86ish.Should I go 90 or higher.

No, temperature should stay around 82 with Rid Ich. If you've done 4 treatments and the buggers are still alive, you may need to hit them with something stronger. First you will have to figure out what the bugs are. I recently had some success using a medication called AP Anti-Fluke Life Bearer and it is also said to be effective on external parasites. Might see if you can get a bottle, it's like $2 for a 4 oz. bottle that will last ages. But again, first find out what you have.

Eddie

[joe l]

I`m getting a pretty good look at the round things,not 100% sure.Perfectly round like saucers,inside some look like an empty space in the middle but some I see the cresent shaped nucleus,could it be anything other than Ick or Trichodia.

[joe l]

They were not darting about but a clump of about 30 were kinda rollin ,then died pretty quick.I could not see any hair type thing on the perimeter.Ick?

[shawnhu]

http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?t=56132

Anything in there that resembles?

[Roxanne]

try here...

http://www.simplydiscus.com/library/disease_medications/medicine_cabinet/freshwater_parasites_intro.shtml

[joe l]

Hi Roxanne,I`ve been looking at that site for 3 years.Anybody know what "less than 5 organism per low field" refers to what number?I can see clearly at 50-75 and 150-225 setting after that it gets tricky but having some sucess.I`m positive I`m seeing Trichodia.

[Eddie]

If it is Trich, you may need to keep up the treatment of Rid Ich+. In stubborn cases, you would need to re-dose after 12 hours with a 25% WC prior to dosing the tank. I'd do a 3 day treatment of this process. Keeping the temp at 82 and extra air in the tank.


Eddie

[joe l]

Hi Eddie
I did 3 doses at 12 hours intervals ,with a formalin bath preceding the last dose.6days now and the apetites or not that good so i`m getting the meds out and just using 1 teaspoon of salt for every 5 gallons for now.Color is ok(seeing faint stress bars on two of them)and breathing around 60 breathes per minute.

[Eddie]

Try to keep up with heavy WCs for the coming days. Bring the temp up slowly and feed sparingly. Their appetites will come back as the temp gets higher.

Let us know how they are doing.

Eddie

[joe l]

Looking at the Sticky F+mg (dose and do 50% water change after 8 hours)I changed 25% with each dose.wonder If the dose I used was high and really stress them.
I took the meds out after 6 days (now 4 days without any meds in tank)because they were not eating,still 3 of not eaten for at least 7 days.The other 2 the juvie and the big eater eat sometimes.50% daily W/cs,plenty of air, am0-ni-0 nitrates-0.Two of then are breathing heavy(not really fast kinda normal speed) with fillaments hanging out of gill plates.When I got them 18 months ago from 2 different stores I noticed similar circumstances and treated with Furan 2.I don`t remember them to stop eating.Have Prazi pro or think I should get some Furan 2?.Any Ideas for me,thanks.
Joe

[Graham]

Not sure if you've fully ID what you've got but trich looks like flying saucers and moves, while Ick looks like a plain old cell but with a very obvious dark crescent shaped nucleus....very very different looking critters

[joe l]

95% sure its Trich(perfectly round),just because some of then were probably not flat I was kinda seeing half shaped nucleas things.The one fish fish that had the pimples has been cure of that.Nothing on the outside of any fish.The temp went up 88 to try to promote eating.Color is good.

[joe l]

41693Trying to figure out posting pictures ,does this help,150X

[Graham]

Pretty different


http://www.fototime.com/9EA9CD393442DC4/standard.jpg

[Graham]

41693Trying to figure out posting pictures ,does this help,150X


based on that pic that's an air bubble:)

[joe l]

4169450x i saw one that looked like the picture in the tail area with the jelly like stuff inside,but for the most part they look empty inside.

Not a bubble clearly one of the bugs.Same as the bugs you can barely see here at 50x.Snipping the q-tip.

[Graham]

Take a scrape off the fish directly, not with Q-tip and increase the X up to 400x. Then take the pic

[Graham]

I just blew that pic up as far as I could and I'm pretty sure it's not trich and probably not Ick but increase the magnification

[joe l]

Really struggling Graham once I get over 225X.I~m gonna go take a look in the pawn shops now to see if I can pick up something better.

[Graham]

Struggling how ?

[shawnhu]

Struggling with the microscope. From the description, I also think that it's Trich. I think I might have that as well. I'm currently treating for internals with Jungle medicated food for internal parasites, but after this treatment is done, I'll start externals.

Keep us posted on how they're doing.

[Graham]

Guys it would be fairly unusual to have trich in a discus tank. It likes dirty conditions with lots of mulm around. It's not a true parasite but feeds off of other ''critters'' in the dirty water and in the cuticle.

At best it's an irritant to the fish and may break the cuticle allowing a possible bacteria infection.

It's fairly common in ponds and generally clears easily with salt at 0.3% + (3teaspoons+ per gallon)

As to struggling with the scope; the pic at 50x was very clear and there shouldn't be a problem increasing the magnification

G

[joe l]

Struggling how ?

No focus after 225x.
Two of were not eating that well exept for brine shirmp starting a month -5 weeks ago and I thought maybe something internal.Another one who has stop eating and is now staying more in one corner I thought I saw something hex like 5 days ago but by the time i found the turkey baster to get a sample(tank is 24in high)it was gone and then followed it up with some brown poo.That`s the last time that one was eating.Two of the others have not eaten now in 8-9 days.When one of those saw the brineshimp bag so would go beserk and could not wait to get at it.Nothing to go on as far as feces.I think I need to try metro,Can I mix Kanaplex with it?

[Graham]

Hi As I mentioned before scrape the fish directly and take a pic at the 225x

G

[joe l]

I tried using the slide a really good scrape and saw maybe the things that have the green cloroform look{maybe).That fish is now hiding in the corner.


I will give it another try and maybe you can blow it up.Give me about 20 minutes I need to step out.Thanks,

[joe l]

41703200x

[joe l]

41704200x

[joe l]

41706 50x First time resizing.

[joe l]

41707 50x tried to get a better picture of what i`ve been seeing all along,use the q-tip;I don`t think it`s bubbles.

[Graham]

41707 50x tried to get a better picture of what i`ve been seeing all along,use the q-tip;I don`t think it`s bubbles.

sorry Joe; They are bubbles

[joe l]

Yes I looked at just q tip and water no scrapping and saw the same thing just bubbles.

Any relationship between not eating and gill flukes?All 4 adults showing stress but not the younger one.4 days off meds now I notice gill filliments kinda hanging out the back of the gills.Switch to Prazi pro which I have used in the past when it looked like a fish started to breath out of one gill.

[Eddie]

Yes I looked at just q tip and water no scrapping and saw the same thing just bubbles.

Any relationship between not eating and gill flukes?4 days off meds now I notice gill filliments kinda hanging out the back of the gills.Switch to Prazi pro which I have used in the past when it looked like a fish started to breath out of one gill.

Can you get a picture of the gill filaments hanging out?

Eddie

[Graham]

Joe start back with the F&MG and do a daily dose, following the bottle instructions at full strength. Do this daily for 5 days as Mat suggested way back, with a water change between each dose..

Do not use any other meds while doing this.

[joe l]

Joe start back with the F&MG and do a daily dose, following the bottle instructions at full strength. Do this daily for 5 days as Mat suggested way back, with a water change between each dose..

Do not use any other meds while doing this.

Comparing my original 6 day treatment with the Carol Roberts F MG sticky my fish got a pretty heavy dose.4 days off and now after 18 hours of Prazi Pro these guy are looking much better,considering the short time.I would say great.Been watching them for the last hour.

More poking going on than I`ve seen in a long time.(6 months)# 2m and 3 female are really given #4 male a rough time.# 3 mother of # 5 has never poke her sibling before now she is.
#2 is eating for the first time in a while.# 1 and 3 are females probably with eggs and can go a long time without food.@5 juvie the only one who never stop eating.

[joe l]

I have another tank with two healthy fish so water is not a concern.One had 18 months the other 4 months.

Considering treating for internal hex or bacteria.Have metro and kanaplex.Easily can set up 2 hospital tanks,seeded filter-heaters.put one fish in each;5 fish.1 juvie 4 adults.

Juvie looks good eating no issues.

Older adult the one one with the original pimples is know eating some beefheart .Visible holes in head but head looks rounding for the most part.Gills look okay.Minor stress bars,unusual.

Next one I thought this fish looked pretty healthy yesterday,today has some stress bars that have been coming and going today i notice white small pimple right in the nostrals(salt bath should take care of these).Yesterday breathing was under 60 per minute,today maybe up 90-120.Head looks filled out and normal.Always eats anything,now not eating.

Next,another big eater not eating,head looks filled has a small inward bump on bridge of nose little worse than usual..Breathing around 60 per-min ,gill plates indidate still has flukes.When I got this fish 18 months go he had hex,responded well to metro has grown since from 3 to 6 inches.

Next one is the biggest concern,Blue diamond,clearly has gill flukes her head is becoming pinched,not eating,smallish holes on her head like pinholes.Breathing heavy at about 60-90 per min sometimes skakes her gills.Normally she breathes really slow closer to 40 breathes per minute.Looks like there might be fluid building up around the top of her eyes.Color is good.

Question ,will they turn black if they are really sick or do stress bars indicate extreme stress.

Thanks for all your support.

[Eddie]

I have another tank with two healthy fish so water is not a concern.One had 18 months the other 4 months.

Considering treating for internal hex or bacteria.Have metro and kanaplex.Easily can set up 2 hospital tanks,seeded filter-heaters.put one fish in each;5 fish.1 juvie 4 adults.

Juvie looks good eating no issues.

Older adult the one one with the original pimples is know eating some beefheart .Visible holes in head but head looks rounding for the most part.Gills look okay.Minor stress bars,unusual.

Next one I thought this fish looked pretty healthy yesterday,today has some stress bars that have been coming and going today i notice white small pimple right in the nostrals.Yesterday breathing was under 60 per minute,today maybe up 90-120.Head looks filled out and normal.Always eats anything,now not eating.

Next,another big eater not eating,head looks filled has a small inward bump on bridge of nose little worse than usual..Breathing around 60 per-min ,gill plates indidate still has flukes.When I got this fish 18 months go he had hex,responded well to metro has grown since from 3 to 6 inches.

Next one is the biggest concern,Blue diamond,clearly has gill flukes her head is becoming pinched,not eating,smallish holes on her head like pinholes.Breathing heavy at about 60-90 per min sometimes skakes her gills.Normally she breathes really slow closer to 40 breathes per minute.Looks like there might be fluid building up around the top of her eyes.Color is good.

Question ,will they turn black if they are really sick or do stress bars indicate extreme stress.

Thanks for all your support.

Both, stress bars can mean different things but dark is does indicate illness.

Eddie

[joe l]

41774Heres a picture of the gill filliments.She is currently in the hex tank.When I just gave her a 2% non idolized salt bath I had to pull after 10 minutes.Started pointing head towards the bottom and doulble pumping the gills.

[Eddie]

41774Heres a picture of the gill filliments.She is currently in the hex tank.When I just gave her a 2% non idolized salt bath I had to pull after 10 minutes.Started pointing head towards the bottom and doulble pumping the gills.

Yup, can see the filaments. Did you try a med for flukes? I read that you used PraziPro. I have given up on PraziPro because it does not seem very effective anymore. I am now using Anti-fluke Life Bearer with excellent results.

Eddie

[Graham]

Eddie you need glasses or I need a new computer...there are no gill filaments there...maybe a blurred gill plate secondary membrane but here is no gill lamellae in that pic.

G

[Eddie]

Eddie you need glasses or I need a new computer...there are no gill filaments there...maybe a blurred gill plate secondary membrane but here is no gill lamellae in that pic.

G

It is blury but it looks extended. Actually, no offense Joe but the fish seems to have a shortened gill plate and the filaments protrude past the plate.

Eddie

[joe l]

Had the fish for 18 months and has mild cronic condition but never this bad.I did 2- 70% and took the P pro out after one day.Just used salt baths prepping for hex treatment in hosital for 3 days.

Looking positive after one treatment.3 non-eaters on a 24 hour cycle the in the hex tank had their noses pointed looking for food when the lights came on after 1st treatment but did not eat when I put some food in..The one female
was getting chased badly by the male so she went back to the home tank,no meds in there.THe one has been eyeing the food all day I`m sure he willl be eating tommorow.

[Graham]

A secondary membrane is not gill filaments....gill lammallae cells may swell a bit ot added additional cells in extremem cases but the gills don't hang out from under the operculm

[joe l]

Sorry guys ,membrane is the term I should have used I think.I was looking at the sticky Possible causes of breathing problems

#9.Bacterial or Fungal gill diseases.Are the gill filaments hanging out from behind the gill plates?Do they have whites strands or cottony growth on them?

[Eddie]

A secondary membrane is not gill filaments....gill lammallae cells may swell a bit ot added additional cells in extremem cases but the gills don't hang out from under the operculm

Sorry Graham...membrane. :o

Eddie

[joe l]

41788I see one of the two fish in the metro tank is pooping out clear yellow-white mucus,this was floating around,2 inches long.

[joe l]

All the fish are back eating.Used metro and salt,the gills were not looking so good.The one who did not eat for 12 days and only wanted to eat brine shirmp for the last month is know eating everything.Her gills still can get puffy after she eats but is getting better every day.

[Eddie]

All the fish are back eating.Used metro and salt,the gills were not looking so good.The one who did not eat for 12 days and only wanted to eat brine shirmp for the last month is know eating everything.Her gills still can get puffy after she eats but is getting better every day.

Sounds good, great to hear about positive affects after treatment.

Eddie