What size before adding substrate?

[cc_woman]

Just a question. What size should we grow the discus out to before adding a substrate to their tank? I don't know if I was wrong for adding a substrate this soon or not. My smallest discus is around 3" the largest is just over 4". Reason for wanting to add substrate is I really wanted to keep live plants in their tank so it could help keep nitrates down.

[Mike_Murry]

Hey cc
Remember me from Mayhem??? How you been??? I don't think it matters... I have 11 Discus from just under 2" to 4" in my tank... They had been raised in bare tanks... I put them into the planted tank when I got them home and they are doing fantastic...
Mike

[cc_woman]

I think I might remember you, lol it's been so long. I have been good, have WAY too many fish now lol. I kinda am slowly getting out of african cichlids and more into the SA's. How have you been?

The only reason I ask is because someone else told me it was a big no no to add them to a planted and substrate tank before 5". I was using seachem fluorite black sand, can this stuff harm discus in any way? I tried doing some reading on what it contains and if anything is harmful for fish, but everything I found said it was safe for all fish. Thanks

[Mike_Murry]

The 5" rule and the sand being bad I've never heard before... Mine are doing just fine... Here's a shot of them the day after I added the last 8 new ones...
http://i282.photobucket.com/albums/kk267/bigm64076/008-10.jpg

[cc_woman]

I guess I shouldn't listen to everything I hear online :o I guess there is debate with everything these days. I will try and remove at least the 2 dom discus and see what happens, if they don't fatten up I am thinking sick?

Nice fish BTW :)

[ShinShin]

It depends on who you are listening to online. Some people have discus for 10 minutes and appear to know all there is to know about raising them. Why do you want to add substrate? You can pot a few plants and keep the tank barebottom.

People who have kept discus for years and even decades know why tanks with substrate don't fare as well as those kept in bb tanks. Gravel, and flourite, too, harbor uneaten food and detritus, which in turn harbors bacteria and pathogens. Water quality can suffer as well.

Keeping plants to control nitrates is easily solved by doing daily water changes. It takes a lot of plants to control nitrates in a tank with fish as large as discus. If you must have a planted tank, adult discus is the best way to go.

Mat

[rickztahone]

It depends on who you are listening to online. Some people have discus for 10 minutes and appear to know all there is to know about raising them. Why do you want to add substrate? You can pot a few plants and keep the tank barebottom.

People who have kept discus for years and even decades know why tanks with substrate don't fare as well as those kept in bb tanks. Gravel, and flourite, too, harbor uneaten food and detritus, which in turn harbors bacteria and pathogens. Water quality can suffer as well.

Keeping plants to control nitrates is easily solved by doing daily water changes. It takes a lot of plants to control nitrates in a tank with fish as large as discus. If you must have a planted tank, adult discus is the best way to go.

Mat

i agree with Mat 100%. take it from someone who has used gravel which isnt much different from what you are using. BB is the way to go to grow discus. im not saying it cant be done because many members (experienced members) have done it successfulky but it takes more work. my 2 cents

[Eddie]

It depends on who you are listening to online. Some people have discus for 10 minutes and appear to know all there is to know about raising them. Why do you want to add substrate? You can pot a few plants and keep the tank barebottom.

People who have kept discus for years and even decades know why tanks with substrate don't fare as well as those kept in bb tanks. Gravel, and flourite, too, harbor uneaten food and detritus, which in turn harbors bacteria and pathogens. Water quality can suffer as well.

Keeping plants to control nitrates is easily solved by doing daily water changes. It takes a lot of plants to control nitrates in a tank with fish as large as discus. If you must have a planted tank, adult discus is the best way to go.

Mat

Very true, down to the last letter.

Eddie

[Mike_Murry]

"It depends on who you are listening to online. Some people have discus for 10 minutes and appear to know all there is to know about raising them."

I guess that was aimed at me... I never claimed I new everything about Discus...

[Dutch dude]

CC-woman,....I think you should grow out juvi discus in a planted tank with substrate. Eventually this is what you want to hear right? When you do, keep in mind that a lot of people on several boards explained why it isn't a good idea and pay some atention to what is happening and were those people have warned for. If your fish develop health issues or become stunted I hope you first wonder why in stead of blaming on the delicate and difficult Discus. No this isn't a polite and gentle reply but I hope it shook you up and put your mind to work.

[cmich]

I'm not sure where that comment came from Dutch Dude? It seems to me that cc woman just asked a question and was looking for some replies. Maybe I missed something...

[John_Nicholson]

Mike I doubt Mat's comments were aimed at anyone in particular. As someone that has been in this racket for quite a while I have seen the type that Mat is referring to. Usually they are the type that get some discus and have success right away, get a breeding pair or two and think they are now God's gift to discus. They seem to try to post to every single thread, even when that have nothing relevant to add. You really don't ft that category. There was a thread and you posted your results. Nothing wrong with that.

I have known people who have raised discus in planted tanks so it can be done, but it is much, much harder and your margin of error is very small. I tried it once many years ago. I doubt I ever try it again. If you want a planted tank the best thing to do is to start with adults.

-john

[Dutch dude]

CC-woman posted the same question on several boards, received same advices of diferent people and holds on to one that replies that it isn't a problem at all to raise juvi discus in planted tanks with substrate. At the same time she found discus to be delicate and difficult and had to deal with health issues (probably several reasons for that). That is where it is coming from. Not intended to offend but intended to make her think abouth it.

[rickztahone]

CC-woman posted the same question on several boards, received same advices of diferent people and holds on to one that replies that it isn't a problem at all to raise juvi discus in planted tanks with substrate. At the same time she found discus to be delicate and difficult and had to deal with health issues (probably several reasons for that). That is where it is coming from. Not intended to offend but intended to make her think abouth it.

i remember said post and i agree with DutchDude

[mikel]

cc woman...I think you should go down to the video show section and see Basshead's video of his newly acquired high quality young fish eating during a WC. You want your tank to be that clean, and for the wc to be as much as possible, and for your young juvies to be looking and acting like that (healthy, robust and eating like pirannahs)....you can't do that in a planted tank. JMHO :)mike

[cc_woman]

CC-woman posted the same question on several boards, received same advices of diferent people and holds on to one that replies that it isn't a problem at all to raise juvi discus in planted tanks with substrate. At the same time she found discus to be delicate and difficult and had to deal with health issues (probably several reasons for that). That is where it is coming from. Not intended to offend but intended to make her think abouth it.

Excuse me? I have actually not posted this question on any other board, so I don't know where that came from. I signed up specifically for this forum to get "good" and expert advice on what to and not to do with my discus. I don't usually ask ANY questions on other boards about discus because there are not many people who know much about them. I might have asked something on cichlid-forum with very little results which is why I came here. Where does all this ignorance come from? I asked a simple question, and I didn't expect to hear you all say yes it can be done. I wanted to get some advice on this matter, and honestly if I am just going to be put down for asking a simple question, why would I want to come back? I like ALL of you want to do the best for my discus that I can, if that means removing all the plants and all the substrate, I will do that. As a matter of fact I do a 50% water change every 3 days, so it's not like I am leaving all the waste to build up in the bottom for a week. Yes my plants don't do as good as my other planted tanks, but I care more about my fish than my plants.

By the way, thank you to all those who responded to my question in a helping manner :)

[cc_woman]

BTW dutch dude, if you want to go to all these other forums and post the links of all these supposed same questions I asked, I would really appreciate it.

[Eddie]

cc woman...I think you should go down to the video show section and see Basshead's video of his newly acquired high quality young fish eating during a WC. You want your tank to be that clean, and for the wc to be as much as possible, and for your young juvies to be looking and acting like that (healthy, robust and eating like pirannahs)....you can't do that in a planted tank. JMHO :)mike

Thats funny Mike, I just read you post. LMAO

I couldn't expect everyone to keep their tanks as clean as mine, there are probably others who have them cleaner. A few.....maybe. :D

100% everyday with a wipe down EVERYDAY! I know I know....I'm insane, maybe a little OCD is setting in, in my old age. LOL

Eddie

[Dutch dude]

http://www.cichlid-forum.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=188234

Sorry and I offer you my excuses. Your right I could not give you a proper advice on the substrate thing nor the other posters (check the link). Good to come to this board and I hope you keep on posting over here. I will redraw posting on your questions. I'm sure the others will answer your questions and be helpful.

[Eddie]

:shocked:

[Patr1ck]

Just a question. What size should we grow the discus out to before adding a substrate to their tank? I don't know if I was wrong for adding a substrate this soon or not. My smallest discus is around 3" the largest is just over 4". Reason for wanting to add substrate is I really wanted to keep live plants in their tank so it could help keep nitrates down.

Hi cc woman. I tried growing out my juvi discus in my 90 gal planted tank(pre Simply era) and none reached their full potential. The biggest one got to 5". He's 21 months old. Another one, the smallest, is just barely 4". She's 20 months old. Their colors are great and they look healthy but they never got that big. I have recently, because of all the good advice here at Simply, bought a 29 gallon bare bottom growout tank for my next group of juvis to grow out in. I plan to keep them in the BB till they are 6" before they go into the planted tank. HTH and good luck with them.:D

Pat

[rsawest@yahoo.com]

Bare-bottom tanks are the best way to raise discus. I would not recommend any type of substrate.

[Don Trinko]

IMO; BB is easier but... All of my discus had gravel or sand from day one. I'm not saying that is is better, I am saying it can be done. I have fake plants.
I'm prety sure the Amazon tributaries are not BB. Don T.

[Tito]

I'm a bit confused I hope someone can help...

So bare bottom is the way to go for raising Discus.

But why is it so hard to do it with a subtrate?

Is it because of water quality? Food not being eaten? I'm not sure I follow the logic.

The only thing that I can think of that might make sense is that a planted tank with a substrate will create areas where food will remain uneaten and deteriorate water conditions.

[Don Trinko]

IMO; It is not that hard but... with bb you see all the dirt, It has no place to hide. With substrate it settels into the substrate where you can't see it. You have to "clean the gravel" often. (syphon the dirt out of the gravel when you do your WC (water change) Don T.

[Eddie]

I'm a bit confused I hope someone can help...

So bare bottom is the way to go for raising Discus.

But why is it so hard to do it with a subtrate?

Is it because of water quality? Food not being eaten? I'm not sure I follow the logic.

The only thing that I can think of that might make sense is that a planted tank with a substrate will create areas where food will remain uneaten and deteriorate water conditions.

As Don T said, it's way easier to maintain tank cleanliness and water quality with BB. Substrate is also a breeding ground for unwanted organisms. If you ever have to medicate an entire tank, the efficiency of the meds are better in a BB.

I myself have to wipe everything down everyday with my water changes. With substrate tank, that is a total pain. At least monthly I would have to transfer the fish to a BB tank and completely break everything down in the substrate tank just to get it properly cleaned.

BB is the way to go IMO, especially when growing out young discus and definitely recommended for beginners in the hobby.

Eddie

[ShinShin]

Mike,

I have been very busy, and am reading the board for the first time in over a week, except for a couple threads last night. I was not refering to you. I don't know who you are, so why would I say that to you? You may have been Jack Wattley's neighbor for decades at one time, which might make you one of the most knowledgable people here. I use that "10 minute" statement from time to time, refering to no one in particular, just those who just got a tank of discus, and for 6 months havent killed one, and then they are "experts". Mostly, they just parrot information that they have picked up from the forum from experienced keepers.

__________________________________________________ _______________________________


It has been proven over years that BB tanks are best, not because of ease of cleaning, but because of better water quality and disease control.

Mat

[Don Trinko]

Ok; We now have a variety of opinions on bb/gravel.
All of the below is only my opinion;
Genetics is an important factor. You need clean water and good food as a bare minimum but to get monster discus you also need good genetics Don T.

[ShinShin]

Don,

I've seen fish that came from the same spawns from my tanks, in the tanks of others. They therefore have the same genetics. In every case, barebottom tank fish were bigger and healthier than those with gravel. The lfs's that carried my fish, also showed the same results. There are certain things discus people have learned from keeping discus for decades. Two are large daily water changes and bare bottom tanks grow larger, healthier discus.

Mat

[mikel]

I can vouch for water changes. I change about 40% each morning. But this past weekend, I tried doing what Eddie does everyday by taking out most of the water and having the fish lay on their sides (barely one inch left). Well, guess what....when I added back all the clean conditioned water from the tap, these guys look and act like they just got a refreshing shot of SOMETHING....I dont know what, but they were more active, vibrant and just happier. Given my schedule and the fact that water is so expensive in the NE of the US, I wont be able to do this whole tank thing everyday. But I plan to do at least once a week, just get rid of almost all the water, and add back almost 100% fresh clean water.

I now see why Eddie is so pro-massive water changes. If I can do this everyday, my fish would be healthier, happier, and most likelt bigger! mike

[Eddie]

I can vouch for water changes. I change about 40% each morning. But this past weekend, I tried doing what Eddie does everyday by taking out most of the water and having the fish lay on their sides (barely one inch left). Well, guess what....when I added back all the clean conditioned water from the tap, these guys look and act like they just got a refreshing shot of SOMETHING....I dont know what, but they were more active, vibrant and just happier. Given my schedule and the fact that water is so expensive in the NE of the US, I wont be able to do this whole tank thing everyday. But I plan to do at least once a week, just get rid of almost all the water, and add back almost 100% fresh clean water.

I now see why Eddie is so pro-massive water changes. If I can do this everyday, my fish would be healthier, happier, and most likelt bigger! mike

Thats right Mike, and there isn't any substrate to collect all those nasty bugs!

Best of luck with your fish Mike
Eddie

[cc_woman]

The nice thing about sand is mostly everything settles on top of it, but I siphoned alot of the remaining sand out and will do the rest with my next wc. I actually have some floating plants I intend to keep in the tank, but will be removing the rest of them. I get what you are saying, which is why I am doing this, and so my new discus will have a good start in the 90. Eventually I will keep them in a planted tank, but I have enough planted tanks now to keep me occupied enough. I can't do daily water changes, but I do try to do them 2-3 times a week. I have already seen an improvement in my discus since changing things around, if I would have known then what I know now I probably wouldn't have had so many problems. Thanks for all the help guys :)