6 consecutive days of losing Juveniles - help!

[cschwaderer]

I moved 80 13-day-old fry into the left side of a glass divided 75 gallon tank on Feb 13th. I lost one of the fry the day after and culled 2 others for deformaties which left 77 in about 37 gallons of water.

I started PraziPro treatments on day 14 and continued through day 20 and didn't lose a single juvenile. All juveniles were active and healthy and eating 2 meals of bbs, 2 meals of wet crushed ColorBits, and some combination of frozen daphnia, Cyclops, or beefheart. So they are getting between 5-7 meals per day. I've been doing 75%-80% water changes every day since moving them into the 37 galons of water. Temp is at 86 degrees, one sponge filter with pretty aggressive aereation. Checking ammonia, nitrite, nitrate levels daily, they read at or near zero.

On days 21-24 I was just following the routine with daily water changes (no more Prazi treatments) and 5-7 feedings per day. On day 23 I lost 1 juvenile. Days 24 - 28 (which is today) I've lost 2, then 7, then 2 then 10 then 6 respectively.

Symptoms - the juveniles will be aggressive swimmers up on the top 1/3 of the tank when healthy. The ones that start to go downhill will have clamped fins and/or hide. Some will start waggling with their head up at about 45 degrees swimming like they've got a swim bladder problem or something. Eventually they stop eating and settle at the bottom of the tank on their sides and die. Some will die within a very short time period- maybe 4 hours from being ok from what I can tell. It's not just the smallest that are dying. Many of the larger ones that were eating like pigs I'll find dead the next morning.

I don't think it's gill flukes. The Ammonia, nitrites, and nitrates check out to be at or near zero. I'm using Prime to condition the 24-hour aged, bubbled water I'm doing the changes with.

Could this be bacterial?? Should I be treating them for a bacterial infection? What should I use?? At this point, I should do something - there are probably 6 more that are exhibiting symptoms and soon I'll lose the whole batch.

Thanks for any help soon!

[Chad Hughes]

I'm no disease expert, but you may have to go with something to treat external rather than internal issues. Fungus sounds susupect. I'll leave this to someone that has more disease experience though. Sorry to hear about your frustrating loss!

[cschwaderer]

I'm no disease expert, but you may have to go with something to treat external rather than internal issues. Fungus sounds susupect. I'll leave this to someone that has more disease experience though. Sorry to hear about your frustrating loss!

Should I see anything on the sick fish in the case of fungus? They look perfectly normal, although thinner, probably from missing a meal while sick. I don't notice anything on the body of the fish at all.

I've got two more laying on the bottom now as I write this. Sometimes they will be on their sides floating at the top of the water. During the water changes, they will just drift around in the current like they're already dead, but their gills are still moving.

Everything else in the fish room is peachy - the pairs, adults, the 2" juvies, my rams, the bristlenose plecos - all are healthy and happy. Something going on in that tank though thats knocking them out - frustrating!!

[Chad Hughes]

Are all of your fish getting water changes form the same source? Can you see ANYTHING wrong with the dead juvies? I'm sure that someone on here has seen the swim characteristics that you are talking about. I just haven't had that much experience with disease.

[Graham]

Some of the people that breed a lot can take this further, but I think that there's a development problem with fry at times...this maybe it ?????

Unless you've cross contaminated or introduced something new into the tank, I doubt very much that this has anything to do with any kind of a parasite or any bacterial problems.

There nothing to suggest parasite...parasites take time to affect a fish, even fry, so you would see a die off from them over days, not 4 hours. The same would hold true for a bacterial problem.

This may have something to do with food and the types of food being fed ; blocking thier digestive system up...try some different food or try stop feeding a certain one and see if it makes a difference

[dishpanhands]

I would guess its a food thing also. Thats alittle young for me to pull. I let my spawns stay till they are eating real well. most of the time I keep them there till they are free swimming for about 3 weeks..

[mmorris]

I'm usually doing two 80% wc's daily at this point. I would use acriflavin, one drop per gal. Best of luck. Frustrating, I know, when you've put so much work into them. I doubt very much it's developmental.

[MostlyDiscus]

Hello,

Hard to say for sure without seeing it. I have 100 or so 4 week fry in one tank and I lose maybe one a day. My belief is that they are over eating. I dont feed TH mix till they are 6 weeks old or so. Most will feed sooner but I find that some of the babies just dont react well with the mix. My thought is the BH fiber is too long and hard to pass through thier digestive systems. I perfer to use Turkey hearts for this reason. Turkey hearts have smaller fibers. My advice would be to up the WC and reduce the feeding for the time being. hope that helps my friend, hang in there.

Ed

[cschwaderer]

Thanks for the suggestions - I know its hard without actually seeing everything and knowing what's going on in the fish room exactly.

Feeding problems - They seem quite thin when they die - some almost concave stamachs. And while they started as very aggressive little eaters, they are now less aggressive eating.

I did stop with the beefheart thinking maybe that was causing a problem. I put liquid baby vitamins mixed in and all my other Discus do fine with it, but just in case, I stopped the beefheart feeding. They are still dying.

It could be that they are sick for a while, but maybe they slow/stop their eating, then the fins clamp, then they die. Hard to tell. But they are getting low in numbers now - about 40 left. Water changed this morning, then fed live bbs. I feel like after 6 days of losses I need to try something - I've never had that many days in a row of baby Discus dying in this large a number before.

I don't think it's a developmental thing - they seem to be growing well, shaped well, eating well up until the time this problem catches them. But even if it is, doing the medicine thing won't make things worse if that's it.

Acriflavine is an anti-fungal. I have some Jungle Parasite cure that has Prazi, metro, and acriflavine in it. I have some tetracyclene that claims to treat bacterial problems inside and out. I've got Quick Cure that's formalin and Malachite Green.

[MostlyDiscus]

Sounds like flukes to me. How are the parents doing on the other side of the divider? What temp is the tank. What are your treating your wc water with. I know these are basic questions and you most likely have it all covered but having some backround can never hurt. My instinct say flukes though, in which case quick cure would be your best bet. The other thing may be chems in your water makeup. How are they doing with the BBS? Are they going after it?

Ed

[Chad Hughes]

Ed,

I was thinking possibly water issues as well. Hard to test for. Best bet is to filter all new water through a carbon block if not doing so already. Water changes without notice and sometimes it doesn't show until you have a catastrophy! Carbon block filtration is my security blanket. Nothing goes in the tank without passing through this block.

I was also interested in the foods as well, but seems that is already covered.

I'm rather at a loss. :(

[MostlyDiscus]

I agree Chad. Hard to say for sure without asking the proper questions. I just didnt want to assume anything. The carbon block would take out most everything chemical though. Flukes seem to take out multiple fry at that age. You have 80 or so in a closed enviroment and your asking for trouble.

[cschwaderer]

Sounds like flukes to me. How are the parents doing on the other side of the divider? What temp is the tank. What are your treating your wc water with. I know these are basic questions and you most likely have it all covered but having some backround can never hurt. My instinct say flukes though, in which case quick cure would be your best bet. The other thing may be chems in your water makeup. How are they doing with the BBS? Are they going after it?

Ed

Parents are doing ok. But they are in a 40 breeder. The other side of the 75 with the glass divider are 10 Rams, 1 nickel size Discus and two 2" Discus (I had a couple pairs of BDs that would basically raise one or two fry at a time if I took them out early enough!). The glass divider is completely sealed by the manufacturer, so there are no leaks. But its possible some water moved back and forth through splashing, feeding, who knows. But all the fish on the right side are doing well - Rams are breeding like crazy in there, but eggs aren't hatching probably because the water is too hard. And the small Discus in with them are doing well too eating like pigs, very healthy.

I was down to one large tank with only adults in the fall and I treated all the fish with Prazi and nuked/dried out everything in hopes of eliminating any possible contaminent in the fish room.

The temp of the tank is 86 degrees.
I'm doing nothing but aging the water in a big storage tank and bubbling air through it as well as having a power head in it to stir up the water. When I do water changes, I use Prime in the tank as the water is filling. All the tanks get water from that one source. All the other fish are doing fine, although they are older. But the water changes I've been doing for the first 3 weeks of their lives hasn't affected them at all - just this last 6 days has been a disaster in that tank.

They are eating the baby brine shrimp. Over the past week or so I thought I was seeing many each the ColorBits crumbs, frozen cyclops, BH, etc. I haven't up'd the bbs feedings as they've been growing, but have been giving larger amounts of the frozen foods and ColorBits. So I'm pretty sure there's plenty of food present. But as I look at them today, most look pretty thin.

Of the ~40that are left, there are two on their sides that look to be on their way out, another 10 or so that look stressed, ~30 that are swimming around normally, but look thin - not bulging like they were in the weeks prior. Maybe they are all not eating well now? I should have looked at them harder after the ColorBits and frozen food meals I guess. I suppose I could up the bbs feedings.

I went ahead and put in some PimaFix as that treats fungal, internal and external bacteria according to the Foster & Smith web site. I added an airstone that is adding a ton of air to the tank to see if that helps.

Maybe it's as simple as they are starving themselves, but there is feces at the bottom of the tank, etc. I've never experienced anything like this before, so I'm pretty much at a loss as to how to treat it. In my experience with that large of a batch, they teach each other to aggressively eat anything you throw in the tank!

[mmorris]

Acriflavine is an anti-fungal. I have some Jungle Parasite cure that has Prazi, metro, and acriflavine in it. I have some tetracyclene that claims to treat bacterial problems inside and out. I've got Quick Cure that's formalin and Malachite Green.

Acriflavine is an anti-bacterial and at a drop a gallon, it will reduce the background level of bacteria. The food is just fine. Up the wc's! The bio-load in a fry tank is huge. You already treated for flukes although the regime was short-term. People tend to assume flukes when at this age, water, and hense bacteria, is a serious problem. I recommend two 80% wc's per day with aged, treated, heated water and acriflavin.

[mmorris]

I've never used PimaFix but I understand it is essentially useless.

[kaceyo]

I agree, PimaFix won't help. Instead of spending all this time trying to figure out what it is while they are dieing, treat with either Prazi or Formalin followed up with acriflavine. That way you'll know right away if it is parasitic and the acriflavine will help with any bacterial or fungal problems.

Kacey

[cschwaderer]

I agree, PimaFix won't help. Instead of spending all this time trying to figure out what it is while they are dieing, treat with either Prazi or Formalin followed up with acriflavine. That way you'll know right away if it is parasitic and the acriflavine will help with any bacterial or fungal problems.

Kacey

Good ideas - will do

[mmorris]

Let us know how you can on. Fingers crossed. :)

[novakovich]

I was including colorbits in my discus diet and they had a DISATROUS effect. All 4 became blocked up and I had to dose them in epsom salt water. They survived, but the treatment was rough on them; they were almost full grown.

[kpotter2]

Try Tetracyline that is what a discus breeder told me to try on some of the same problems I was having. When Bactiral infection takes hold in a fish it attacks slime coat and gills for sure and move on from what I can read up on. My babys and adult where going through this same thing and I treated with prazi pro and didn't get any results so I was at a loss. I called a discus breeder out of Indiana and he told me try tetracyline. I use T.C. Tetracyline by API and there Melifex meds togeather and it has worked wonders on the ones that are healthy or on the edge. The ones that where to far gone it will not help. Also a little salt helps.

Good luck and I know what you are going through.


Later,

Kyle

[cschwaderer]

Try Tetracyline that is what a discus breeder told me to try on some of the same problems I was having. When Bactiral infection takes hold in a fish it attacks slime coat and gills for sure and move on from what I can read up on. My babys and adult where going through this same thing and I treated with prazi pro and didn't get any results so I was at a loss. I called a discus breeder out of Indiana and he told me try tetracyline. I use T.C. Tetracyline by API and there Melifex meds togeather and it has worked wonders on the ones that are healthy or on the edge. The ones that where to far gone it will not help. Also a little salt helps.

Good luck and I know what you are going through.


Later,

Kyle

Thanks Kyle - I have some on hand - I'll give that a try. How much salt did you use with it?

[MostlyDiscus]

I agee with Martha. Flukes have eggs as well so you may have killed the parents but not the eggs, thus a rehatch. How is the filtration set up? Are the rams getting the lions share of filtration?

Ed

[cschwaderer]

I agee with Martha. Flukes have eggs as well so you may have killed the parents but not the eggs, thus a rehatch. How is the filtration set up? Are the rams getting the lions share of filtration?

Ed

There is 1 sponge filter in the left half of the tank with the Discus juveniles and two sponge filters in with the Rams and the few larger juvenile Discus on the right side. Note that the glass divider is sealed so there are two completely separate compartments that make up the 75 gallon.

I added an airstone to the left side where the juvenile Discus are being treated.

I thought the fluke life cycle was 4 days? I treated for 7 days which I thought would kill the entire cycle of flukes. Then 1 juvenile died 2 days after I stopped with the Prazi. Then two the day after, so I dosed with Prazi for the next 2 days and they kept dying in larger numbers which is when I stopped the Prazi treatment again and started this thread.

I started the tetracyclene treatment yesterday afternoon. There are another 6 dead this morning, but I have no idea if maybe they were too far along to be saved or its not bacterial. The box says to "Repeat dose after 24 hours. Wait another 24 hours, then repeat this treatment for a 2nd time for a total of 4 doses". So I guess that says no water change, dose again today.

If juveniles are still dying after the 2nd dose, should I assume its not bacterial at that point?

I know they are eating the live bbs. And they pick at the frozen foods I put in the tank, but you've probably seen how they pick something up, then spit it out. I've seen some pick at the frozen food and not spit anything out, so I assume they are eating it. And it doesn't look like much if anything is left at the bottom of the tank after a few hours, so I assume they're eating or maybe it's just getting dispersed since daphnia and cyclops are so small?

But even the ones that aren't showing any ill effects don't have the big full stomachs and some look downright thin. Will Discus starve themselves? I've never seen that before, so I just ruled it out. Is it possible they could have worms and only be 28 days old? But I've seen no signs of worms in any of my other fish or the parents.

**sigh**

[kaceyo]

Flukes can keep coming back for weeks after the first treatment. Hence, the 21 day fluke treatment. Even after that they can come back.
The tetracyclin treatment needs to be done daily with a 25% to 50% wc before each dose. I'd give them 3 or 4 days on it before judging the results.

Kacey

[ShinShin]

Bacterial infections kill more discus fry than anything. Gill flukes can as well, esp. in crowded conditions. This doesn't sound like flukes by the symptoms. If all your other fish are well, I would not suspect a water problem.

I would try neomyacin sulfate. If you can't find this, try neomyacin and triple sulfa. Most of the time, I treat with neomyacin on day one, triple sulfa on day two, neomyacin on day three, triple sulfa on day four, etc. for three to five treatments of both drugs.

Mat

[kpotter2]

Yes Curt I agree with Kacey it says treat with first dose then a secound then 25% water change then start that again for a secound time for a total of 4 treatments with 25% water change after each 2nd dose. This is for the T.C. Tetracyline by API 500mg dose. I even did it one day extra,because I was told to by a breeder just to be safe.its still lingering around in the water you can see the brownish water still. I am getting the last of it out now. I lost about 20 fry total form BI and just law of averages,but they where all very small anyway and they looked skinny when they died like you said yours did. I lost my female to my pair and one 2.5" all others are doing great and eating with pig like attatudes. I have also started treating babys with Prazi just for my own nerves.

I feel your pain and wish you luck! How is your pair doing? Have they started to spawn again? Also what made you take them out at 13 days? I have been told 3 weeks is a good time so that is what I did. I had them eating Chopped/shaved Hikari Bloodworms and BBS before I moved them.

Best of luck!

Kyle

[cschwaderer]

Yes Curt I agree with Kacey it says treat with first dose then a secound then 25% water change then start that again for a secound time for a total of 4 treatments with 25% water change after each 2nd dose. This is for the T.C. Tetracyline by API 500mg dose. I even did it one day extra,because I was told to by a breeder just to be safe.its still lingering around in the water you can see the brownish water still. I am getting the last of it out now. I lost about 20 fry total form BI and just law of averages,but they where all very small anyway and they looked skinny when they died like you said yours did. I lost my female to my pair and one 2.5" all others are doing great and eating with pig like attatudes. I have also started treating babys with Prazi just for my own nerves.

I feel your pain and wish you luck! How is your pair doing? Have they started to spawn again? Also what made you take them out at 13 days? I have been told 3 weeks is a good time so that is what I did. I had them eating Chopped/shaved Hikari Bloodworms and BBS before I moved them.

Best of luck!

Kyle

Thanks Kyle,

Let's see I did the one round of treatment - 2 packets, 24 hours, 2 more packets, but still the casualties kept coming. I saw one of the healthy ones scraping his gill on the tank drain and decided to go to a stronger dose of Prazi, so I used the Jungle Parasite cure tablets which I had laying around that had metro+prazi+Flubanizol(or something like that - don't have the carton in front of me) AND I used a 1/2 dose of Prazi Pro with that.

Today/tomorrow will be the third day of treatment with that, so according to the suggestions on here, I should lay off for four days and do another 3-day round. I'm still getting a couple casualties per day and I only have 14 left of the 75 I didn't cull, so I'm not optimistic. I probably should have gone ahead with the additional two days of the tetracyclene, but the fish were still dying in multitudes, so I switched up thinking it wasn't helping. Wow - I've never had this happen before in the 4 years I've been spawning and raising Discus and it's such an incredibly helpless feeling - like I have absolutely no business breeding Discus if I'm just going to kill off all the juvies :(:(:(

The pair is doing fine - they've spawned a couple times since taking the first batch out. The first spawn the water was still hard from the aged tap changes while the juvies were in there with them, so nothing hatched. The second one only about 15 wigglers and a few attached, but the percentage of RO was still too low at that point for a good hatch. As with other pairs I've had in the past, too few babies and they they just ate or ignored them and are looking to spawn again. The right RO mix is in the tank again and the TDS is down around 150 like the last time they had a very large batch, so maybe this one will work out.

Taking the juvies out at 13 days - well first there were 80 of them and I usually take them out when most start to not go with the parents anymore. And at 13 days they were eating bbs well and not swimming around the parents much any more other than when they were hungry, they'd peck at the parents.

You might have seen a previous post on the parents when they looked white and they acted like they had pH shock - Cary said he's seen that before and it's definitely the parents got their slime coats stripped because the juveniles were left in too long with the parents?? After 13 days?? Go figure. Maybe I should have been feeding bbs more often than 3x per day, but you gotta work sometime!

I have, in the past, usually left the fry in with the parents for around 3 weeks and never had a problem. But with such a large group of juvies and with them being first time parents, I didn't want the parents to get over-stressed (which apparently they did anyway).

I wonder if harder water is harder on the parents' slime coats - maybe I upped the percentage of aged tap (which this time of year I'm measuring a whopping 8.8pH on) too much too quickly and that contributed to them losing their slime coat? I think from now on, I'll just leave the same mix in the breeding tank, move the juvies with the same mix, then gradually add a higher percentage of aged tap until they are on 100% aged tap. Maybe others have thoughts on this?

On another note, Cary Strong mentioned on one post that he has eradicated gill flukes from his fish room by using "lots of pure prazi and lots of fish tanks". I'm intrigued at the thought of being completely fluke-free in the fish room so I've been reading up on gill flukes and their life cycles from some of the scientific posts I can find on the web. There are some interesting studies on how to kill them using 3% salt baths, formalin, along with Prazi and Dylox mentioned often on this forum. Also, the eggs cannot survive without water - they aren't like brine shrimp eggs. So I'm thinking seriously about trying to seriously eradicate every parasite that might be in the fish room this summer. After I've formulated the plan, I'll probably post on here and see what people think. But I think it will involve baths and moving the group of fish to a treated tank while everything else in the fish room is bone-dry, treating for the lifecycle of the parasite, doing another bath, moving to a tank that used to be bone-dry and drying out the previous tank for the life cycle, another bath, then moving again. It's probably a 2-3 month process, but if I end up with a group of adult Discus, Rams, and BN plecos that are parasite free I'd attempt that 2-3 month pain. But of course this could just be a pipe dream - many better fish keepers than I have probably tried aggressively and failed. It would be interesting to hear comments from people on this subject as well.

[cschwaderer]

Summary -

It's been about 2 weeks since the fry-kill-off described by this thread, so I thought I'd post the outcome just in case it might help others in the future.

Symptoms:
First stage some hiding, some not swimming actively in the top 1/3 of the tank. Second stage clamped fins, not really eating, some would waggle-vertically as they swim or swim dazed, i.e. the current from a water change would cause them to float with the current, not really swim. Third stage they would be on their sides at either the top of the water or bottom of the tank. Within about 2-3 hours of stage three, they would be dead.

The dead juvies would fungus quickly starting around the head. Another thing I noticed about the tank was that the sides were slimy during the daily water change and wipe-down. And the sponge filter had a white sheen to it as well.

Actions:
They had already had 1 week of Prazi treatments before the problems started, so I tried Tetracyclene as an antibacterial. No response and the casualties kept growing. So I went back to the Prazi. Still no change. I also went to nothing but bbs and frozen brine shrimp for feedings and still no change. With about 6 left in the tank all showing stages 1 or 2, I tried a medication with Formalin and Malachite Green. Two days later 5 of the 6 were dead with 1 juvenile left. But the glass sides were no longer slimy and the white sheen on the filter was gone and the 1 juvenile left is active and eating and fat.

Summary:
I have absolutely no idea if the formalin + Malachite green helped or if the last juvenile was going to make it through this anyway. Maybe the slime on the sides was just an artifact of 8-12 juveniles dying daily in the tank? But it seemed like fungus was growing abnormally quickly in that tank.

If I see this situation again, I'll probably start with the formalin+malachite green treatments this time to see if it does fix the situation.