white sand/substrate? Australia?

[grantbudd74]

Hi guys

I live in Melbourne Australia and am thinking about setting up a tank 6x2x2 and use white sand for the top layer of substrate last inch to inch and half.

I will use granulated ferts for the base then pool sand topped off with white sand. Will use fert balls around sword roots and will throw in a few crypts and lots and lots of driftwood with moss to give a great place for my fish to hide and pair up as they grow up.

Thoughts and ideas would be great

Thanks

Grant

[dishpanhands]

the sand needs to be thin of it will be bad, you can't have any low oxygen places. If your going to grow out fish they do better in a bare bottom tank.

[grantbudd74]

I am not sure about the whole bare bottom thing as the tank is going to be on show so I want it to look good. I love the idea of a clean tank as my current is a mess with my sailfin plecos in! they poop sooooooo much!

I really want a lot of driftwood and algie and a few swords to top it off. Maybe a really think layer of sand and potted plants?

Your thoughts and ideas here would be great as this is my first large tank. Currently using a 200L heavy plant load!

Will swords do well in plant pots?

When you say light covering of sand I hope to get a good Malaysian snail population to help stir things up a little to prevent dead spots. I have these in my current tank and my clown loaches x2 are happy too!

[dishpanhands]

I love the idea of a clean tank as my current is a mess with my sailfin plecos in! they poop sooooooo much!

If your going to grow them to full size they will poop more then that and that is why the bare bottom, so you can keep it clean and the fish can get to the food fast and easy. This will give you better water and bigger fish. I think a bare bottom tank full of fish is a good show tank. its got to be full of hungry fish watching every move you make. They will put on the show..

[dishpanhands]

and wanted to say if you give discus a place to hide thats what they do..

[Chad Hughes]

You will be fine with sand. Sand is WAY better than gravel as it does not let waste settle within it. Vacuuming sand is very easy due to the fact that all of the debris is right on top and there is very little penetration of the sand required. I use quickcrete play sand in all of my show tanks. It's a great product.

I also imbed fertilizer sticks in my sand for my root feeders and then use dry ferts for my column feeders. I grow out discus in the same environment that you are speaking of planning for your tank. I only stock one discus for every 10 gallons. This gives them plenty of room for growth.

I realize that this goes against just about everything that most die hard discus keepers recommend, but poviding a complete biotope for your discus is just as effective as a bare bottom tank, in fact, I believe it's actually healthier. I have experience growing out 2" discus in a planted tank with substrate, wood, etc. I have had literally NO disease, I change 50% of that water weekly and all of the tank perameters are "0" (ammonia, nitrite, nitrate).

If you have questions, ask. Just to warn you, you will find very few advocates of this method of keeping discus. It definately take a higher level of skill to balance a biotope than to remove 100% of your water every day, but the asthetics are MUCH better with the biotope tanks.

I wish you the best of luck!

Best wishes!!

[Rod]

and wanted to say if you give discus a place to hide thats what they do..

Great advice, nothing sounds better than a well decorated tank, but it does not work for discus. I'd go bare bottom or very thin layer of sand, forget the furniture.

[grantbudd74]

some interesting views here. I will keep discus for pleasure and if they breed then i will get the bare bottom tanks for babies. my 200L is pool filter sand and most of the debris floats along toward the intakes of my 2 canister filters. Id love bare but i want plants and driftwood. Any suggestions for non messy cleanup crew? corys? I want a clean up crew that will NOT attack the fish or even fry if I get that far. Discus will be 5-8cm so a long time before I get to breeding stage.

avionics30 thanks for your advice and for me to change such huge amounts of water really is not allowed as we are in a drought in Melbourne all the time and have been for many years! 20% a week is me. that's should be plenty on a 6x2x2.

Rob you say sand does not work for discus? What do you keep them for?

[Tito]

I keep my Discus in Sand but I will say this...

If you want to grow them out really big and take no chances stunting - then of course bare bottom is better becuase you can feed them like greedy pigs and just change the water. You can do this all day long.

Of course this is much harder to do with a planted tank.

The bare bottom approach to growing out should be explained. What I have found here is that most experienced folks say bare bottom bare bottom but really dont take the time out to explain it. Most people like myself don't like to be told what to do - we like to know why before we take the advice.

Can Big Discus small Discus live in a planted tank but of course - the Amazon is a big planted tank.

Will you grow out the next killa Discus that will have everyone at NADA drooling at the mouths - probably not - but then again many of us don't even care. IMO the bare bottom tank scheme is a high end method for the serious enthusiast - not everybody shares that passion.

[Chad Hughes]

No worries. I have had great success with sand in display tanks. Like you said, debris moves right along to the intakes and then up it goes, right in to the filter. Most discus keepers use sponge filters and sand just doesn't play nice with those kinds of setups. Bare bottom breeder/fry grow out tanks are PERFECT! There is no better way to go.

IME if you have a dozen 2" fish in a big 150 gallon tank, you will not have any issue with feeding and cleanup. There is a trick to getting the food to stay all in one place. I make a lot of my own food and I make it all ice cube size. I use ice tray obviously. Anyway, I used to try and feed on both sides of the tank by cutting the big piece up. Bad idea! Now I just drop the cube in the tank on the filter intake side. Once the feeding frenzy settles, any debris heads straight for the filter. It works like a champ! Make sure you get that filter cleaned once a month though. It gets gross! I use a fluval FX5 on a 150 gallon. I love it! The fact that you have two is even better!

As for clean up crew, I use corey cats. They are small, they kind of school and are not agressive eaters towards the discus, plus will not try to attach to a discus. I also like to put a large school of noen tetras for color. They really look awesome in a tight school.

Change as much water as you can if you are only doing it once a week. I know how it is to have limited resources.

Best wishes!

[Chad Hughes]

I keep my Discus in Sand but I will say this...

If you want to grow them out really big and take no chances stunting - then of course bare bottom is better becuase you can feed them like greedy pigs and just change the water. You can do this all day long.

Of course this is much harder to do with a planted tank.

The bare bottom approach to growing out should be explained. What I have found here is that most experienced folks say bare bottom bare bottom but really dont take the time out to explain it. Most people like myself don't like to be told what to do - we like to know why before we take the advice.

Can Big Discus small Discus live in a planted tank but of course - the Amazon is a big planted tank.

Will you grow out the next killa Discus that will have everyone at NADA drooling at the mouths - probably not - but then again many of us don't even care. IMO the bare bottom tank scheme is a high end method for the serious enthusiast - not everybody shares that passion.

Great points!

Yes, most hobbyists that are not in it to win it enjoy more than just a glass tank to hold their discus. Sure, it's harder to keep that planted tank spotless, fertilized, etc. but the biotope tank offers benefits! In my experience you can get great looking, 5-6" discus in a planted environment. You just have to pay more attention and be a bit more dilligent. There are trade offs too! I find that water quality is sustained in the planted tank, whereas it deteriorates in a bare tank quicker.

Just some of my observations!

Best wishes!

[Eddie]

I myself don't try raise discus for competition, only try to raise them to their potential.

There exists in my eyes, discus and not nice discus. I like to raise and keep discus.


Eddie

[Rod]

.

Rob you say sand does not work for discus? What do you keep them for?


Are you talking to me? I'm sure i did not say that. I keep them because i love raising animals...you?

RoD :)

[TankWatcher]

Are you getting juveniles or adults? If juveniles, then I agree with everyone here telling you to go BB, but once they grow into full adults, IMO, there is no reason why a nice decorated tank will not work. My adults are in a planted tank & I'm very happy with it. Maybe I am lucky, but no-one hides amongst my plants or driftwood. Yes they swim there, but spend most of their time in the open waters. When visitors come that they don't recognise, this is the only time they have may have hidden like this - but they don't hide for long. Might depend on your discus though, if you have really timid ones, they might hide all the time. If you grow them up as juvies in a BB, before transferring them to decorated tank this might help with shyness - but I'm only guessing about that.

If you are starting off with adults, then IMO you can jump straight into a decorated tank.

I will use granulated ferts for the base then pool sand topped off with white sandI think there is no way you will keep the layers separated & you may well regret it if you do this. For instance, in my planted section I have ADA aquasoil, with power sand underneath. Whenever I have to pull out a plant, up comes the power sand. I have a planted section & a sand section in my planted tank, but my other adult discus tanks will just be silica pool filter sand with driftwood. Maybe some java fern, anubias & moss. I plan on floating plants too. If you want swords, they may be best in strategically placed pots. I know pple who have planted swords in discus tanks, directly in the sand & used fert root tabs, but IMO this would mean the sand would be deeper than you want it.

Pool filter sand has a larger grain than your standard fine beach type sand. It's less likely to compress, but even so, I do stir it up each time I gravel vac. I either do this with the vac itself, or use a chopstick or plant tweezers. The thinner the layer, the easier it will be to keep it clean. Before you stir it up, vac up the stuff that lies on the sand surface. If you look for silica pool filter sand, it will be close to white. Not quite, but close. There is other pool filter sand that is browner. You might be happy with just straight silica, as I am.

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. I sympathise with you, as I can tell that you are the same as me, in that BB doesn't appeal at all. My only BB's are QT or juvi tanks. Two of my displays are acting as QT ATM, so they are BB & I can hardly wait to change it. Others love BB and the beauty of the discus is enough for them.

As a compromise, I have seen some tanks with no substrate, but they have a few individual pieces of driftwood with lots of anubias, ferns, mosses, etc attached. The driftwood is small enough to be moved around & out of the way during tank maintenance.

EDIT: My clean up crew are sterbai cories & ottos

Good luck & have fun

[grantbudd74]

Ok so I have 60 kg's of white sand on order and the grain size is super small. My tank 6x2x2 will come early next week and I have a pro 3 2080 coming next week too!

Ok as for fish they are indeed juveniles and they are blue turqs around 8cm in size. I am going to get 12 in total so that I have a good chance to pair a few up.

Why do I go with bare bottom for the juveniles? I am guessing its because they get fed more? Well I work so they are not going to get fed too much. Maybe morning b4 work, in the arvo if I am home and evening which will be the main photo period.

Just how much do they eat???? In terms of a cube of bloodworm how many would I use? I will also have a clean up crew 8-10 corys to catch the missed food.

As far as bare bottom I do have a 70L on stand by as a hospital tank and I am not sure what I will do with my 200l
at this stage. I may get a breeding pair for that tank and see how I go?

Some great info guys than you all so much. I am not sure why juveniles need bare bottom though? I would think that 10 or more adult sized discus would poo more than the same number of babies???

Thanks everyone

[Eddie]

Hey Grant,

Time and time again, the subject of substrate and barebottom tanks. The discus hobby isn't a new one and the ways of raising discus relies on what has been established by the pioneers through trial and error.

You will have those select few of individuals who have been able to raise a handful of discus in a planted substrate tank. Does that mean that it can be done by everyone, definitely not.

I am not an expert in keeping discus but I do know there are 3 basic needs. See my signature. That sums it all up.

You can't have superior water quality in a substrate tank if you feed juvenile discus the way they need to be fed. You can change the way you feed to not affect the water but this will impact the growth of your fish. Juveniles need strict husbandry to develop into the fish they are capable of being.

Another issue with sand, just because food and detritus lands on top of it and can be siphoned off, doesn't mean harmful organisms don't live in there. Any sand or substrate is a playground for baddies, period.

Adult, fully grown discus can be kept in substrate tanks. That is it, period.

Eddie

[grantbudd74]

ok I get it now.....Here is another question......If I go bare bottom and then go planted later do I have to remove all the water to get the substrate in? If so will this not cause me to lose all my bacteria (the good ones)

I am thinking in terms of substrate that I will use a fine sand with Malaysian snails to keep the sand on the move at night and use root tabs as I only want swords and crypts along with a bit of moss on driftwood. My understanding is that these plants (not moss) are root feeders so dosing the water with liquid ferts is a bit of a waste as the food waste and fish waste will be enough to feed the moss.

I hope that I am not upsetting people with my questions. It is very clear that this is the site for the real advice on how to do things properly and its great to meet people so passionate.

I have only been keeping Discus for 2 years and only have a heavily planted aquarium. They are not huge as I do not feed them heaps but they are about 5-6 inches.

Thanks everyone:)

[Eddie]

Grant,

You can have a BB tank initially and then make it a substrate/planted tank in the future, easy as PIE! You can gow your fish out to adult size in the BB and then move all the fish into anything, another tank, a bucket, tupperware...whatever. The good bacteria is not established in the water, it is established in the filter. Once your filter is established, you could keep your fish in the bath tub with the filter running. (I would not advise that)

You are never upsetting anyone, it's nothing at all. You are going to get a ton of different opinions on how to raise discus here. Some people bought one and threw it in there tank with all kinds of different fish and the fish grew, now they are successful in keeping discus??? They did maybe once a week water changes. Fed the fish once or maybe twice a day. Whatever

The test is to get a group of quality discus (half dozen or more) and raise them from 1.5" to about 6 inches by following that exact type of husbandry. You might get 1 or if your lucky...2 to make it there without any hickups.

Period

[TankWatcher]

Ok so I have 60 kg's of white sand on order and the grain size is super small. My tank 6x2x2 will come early next week and I have a pro 3 2080 coming next week too! when it comes to sand for an aquarium, larger grain is better. Finer grain sand will compact more (compacting is what can cause the anaerobic issues). Make sure you stir the sand up regularly to avoid this. Trumpet snails will help, but if you are having any sort of depth, I wouldn't rely on them only. Fine sand will also be harder to deep vac, without it going up the syphon. Pool filter sand, being larger grained won't give you this problem.


Why do I go with bare bottom for the juveniles? I am guessing its because they get fed more? Well I work so they are not going to get fed too much. Maybe morning b4 work, in the arvo if I am home and evening which will be the main photo period.juvenile discus need to be fed 4 or more times a day. It will be hard to keep a planted tank clean enough to maintain their proper growth. They really need daily water changes too, which is tough on a planted tank. Without pristine water & frequent feeds, the discus will more than likely become stunted. Stunted discus are recognisable by their large eyes. Their body stops growing, but their eyes don't. Once they are stunted, there is no return. They still can make nice pets, but they won't reach their potential. Some people do manage to grow them properly in a planted tank, but most fail. I didn't know about this when I got my first juvies. They are now stunted, because I had them as juvies in a planted tank. I won't ever do that again.

Hey Grant, didn't you say you are in Melbourne, Australia? Only reason I ask is that you display the USA flag? Are you originally from the US?

[Harriett]

ok I get it now.....Here is another question......If I go bare bottom and then go planted later do I have to remove all the water to get the substrate in? If so will this not cause me to lose all my bacteria (the good ones)

I am thinking in terms of substrate that I will use a fine sand with Malaysian snails to keep the sand on the move at night and use root tabs as I only want swords and crypts along with a bit of moss on driftwood. My understanding is that these plants (not moss) are root feeders so dosing the water with liquid ferts is a bit of a waste as the food waste and fish waste will be enough to feed the moss.

I hope that I am not upsetting people with my questions. It is very clear that this is the site for the real advice on how to do things properly and its great to meet people so passionate.

I have only been keeping Discus for 2 years and only have a heavily planted aquarium. They are not huge as I do not feed them heaps but they are about 5-6 inches.

Thanks everyone:)

I think your plan sounds fine. Your bacteria is in the FILTER, not in the water column. If you are planning a big redecorating day to add the sand, etc, I would suggest moving the fish out to a holding tank--I don't like to put them through the stress. Pool sand has very little particulate in it and if you take the fish and plants out of there, just dump in the sand, stir it well, turn on your filters, do a couple water changes over the course of the day, by the end of the day it will absolutely be clear and you can plant the tank up and throw the discus back in that night or the next morning. I have torn my big tank down a few times over the years and in doing it this way never have had an issue.
If you want good sized swords you will need about 3" of pool sand, using root tabs should be ok--swords are heavy feeders, crypts much less so in my tanks; I am reading caveats from people on this thread about keeping the sand layer real thin or you will have anaerobic nightmares so I wanted to address that. I have a big planted tank with pool sand substrate. THe substrate is at least 3.5-4+" because I have big plants in there as well as smaller stuff. I take care to burrow deeply into the sand bed weekly with my python when I clean the tank to make sure the sand is stirred up well, and there are snails [that I never see] all in the substrate as well. I also have vigorous filtration in the tank. I have yet to have an anaerobic explosion in this 180g tank and the sand has been in [dumped the previous gravel substrate] about 3+ years now. Just do your maintanence.
Best regards and good luck!
Harriett

[grantbudd74]

hey guys

Yes I am in Australia I do not know why but I got a US flag. Maybe the timezone gave it to me? Prob my fault....

Ok the more I read this the better. I am getting a pro 3 ehiem 2080 to look after filtration and I think in fairness to my babies I will go bare bottom to get them going.

At what size or age would you say is a good time to change from a bare bottom tank and go planted with all the substrate?

Going Bare bottom keeps my initial costing down as I do not have to buy all the wood at once along with the plants so that's a bonus.


Thanks for the advice so far.....All very good

[Harriett]

I like to go BB until they are about a year old and I am slowing down on the feeding schedule, when they are about a good 6" size. Big and strong.
Best regards
Harriett

[grantbudd74]

thanks to all who wrote in about an age old topic BB or Substrate? I helped my LFS owner carry in my 6x2x2 today! Yey Its soooo big! For me it is!

I am going to keep bare bottom for as long as I can stand about 1 year and grow my babies up big and strong. I have an ehiem 2080 on order so that should be enough filtration.

Then is a quick cycle and a dozen little blue turqs coming my way!

I am to lose my internet tomorrow so I will only be able to check in from work so very limited access.

Thanks again all of you.

Grant:)

[Eddie]

thanks to all who wrote in about an age old topic BB or Substrate? I helped my LFS owner carry in my 6x2x2 today! Yey Its soooo big! For me it is!

I am going to keep bare bottom for as long as I can stand about 1 year and grow my babies up big and strong. I have an ehiem 2080 on order so that should be enough filtration.

Then is a quick cycle and a dozen little blue turqs coming my way!

I am to lose my internet tomorrow so I will only be able to check in from work so very limited access.

Thanks again all of you.

Grant:)


No problem Grant, I think you are on the road to success.

Best of luck

Eddie

[TankWatcher]

Yes I am in Australia I do not know why but I got a US flag. Maybe the timezone gave it to me? Prob my fault....You change this in your profile. Just change your country to Australia & the flag will change too.
thanks to all who wrote in about an age old topic BB or Substrate? I helped my LFS owner carry in my 6x2x2 today! Yey Its soooo big! For me it is! Yippee, Yahoo - that's always exciting to see a new big tank like that coming in
I am going to keep bare bottom for as long as I can stand about 1 year and grow my babies up big and strong. I have an ehiem 2080 on order so that should be enough filtration.sounds good
Then is a quick cycle and a dozen little blue turqs coming my way!Can't really rush a cycle, but you probably know that. If you want a source of clear ammonia in Australia (for a fishless cycle) let me know & I can give you a link.

Have fun