High KH or pH hardening the eggs?

[simoon]

I keep a pair of almost 2 years old blue diamond that have spawned successfully before. I keep them in a 40 gallons tank, daily water change 50%, two tank top filters,

one filled with ceramic ring and white synthetic cotton,

the other with de*nitrate, water softening pillow and peat soil ball. The eggs start turning white after 12 hours and all become white after 36 hours, I suspect the eggs are not fertilized. I am quit sure the male is a male and it is in healthy condition so the problem may come from the water.

I have read most of the water work post and still confused about whether the high pH or high KH make the egg too hard to be fertilized. A post said high KH mean water high in carbonate and bi-carbonate and these hardening the shell of the egg lead to infertility. Another post simply said high PH hardening the egg shell.......

My filtered tape water has a PH of 8.4, KH 20 ppm, GH 40 ppm
My tank water has a PH of 7.8, KH 20 ppm, GH 20 ppm, ammonia 0

I use electronic meter calibrated with standard 7.01 solution to measure the PH.
Hagen, Nutrafin KH/GH test kit for the KH/GH test,
For KH test the first drop turn the water blue, second drop turn it yellow, according to the instruction that is under 20ppm. (times number of drop by 10)
For GH test the first drop turn the water pink and the second drop turn it blue, it is under 40ppm. (times number of drop by 20)

My pair of fish is from my friend, the fish have successfully spawn and raise their baby a few times. My friend want to try keeping red discus. That is why he gave me this pair of blue diamond.

Since I received them, the fish had spawned two times with around two hundred eggs, the male pass over the eggs everytime after the female laid them, I turn off all filter for 24 hours when it start laying egg, they take turn o fan the eggs, 10% of the eggs turn white after 12 hours, 50% after 24 hours, 99% after 36 hours, the remaining couple eggs are clear amber color. After 48 hours while they are still fanning the white egg, I do a water change and remove all dead eggs.

[Chad Hughes]

You may want to try a sponge filter in the tank so that you are not completely turning off all of your filtration while the spawning occurs. This is not your problem though, just something that I would recommend.

Typically for breeding discus, you need pretty soft water. KH of about 4 degrees and GH of about 8 degrees. This is perfect water for large spawns. Another item of consideration would be the temperature. I like to drop my breeding tanks down to 83 degrees. Fry tanks are usually 86 to 90 degrees.

Just my take on things! I'm sure others may have some other suggestions to offer.

Best wishes!

[mmorris]

Can you find out what your friend's water stats are, or were when the fish raised fry for him?

[White Worm]

gH is the harness which affects the egg membrane and at 40ppm, you should be ok (thats pretty soft). Just because they did it right in one place doesnt mean it will happen in the next. Just give them time and I think it will end in positive results without any adjustments to your water chemistry. What do they lay their eggs on?

[simoon]

You may want to try a sponge filter in the tankBest wishes!

Yes, I do have it in my tank, I forgot to mention it.


Typically for breeding discus, you need pretty soft water. KH of about 4 degrees and GH of about 8 degrees.

According to what I read on the net, the conversion between ppm and degree is ppm divide by 17.86 equal degree. so my KH should read 1.12 degree and GH is 2.24 degree.


Another item of consideration would be the temperature. I like to drop my breeding tanks down to 83 degrees. Fry tanks are usually 86 to 90 degrees.

I keep breeding tank at 81 degree, that is what my friend used to keep the temperature at.


Can you find out what your friend's water stats are, or were when the fish raised fry for him?

My friend change 2 to 3 inches water every other day from aged tape water (without filtering), he does not have any test kits or tools. I am unable to compare my water stats with his.


What do they lay their eggs on

On spawning cone designed for discus, it looks like a clay pot, but actually are made of plastic and rubber I think.

Following is the picture of how the eggs turn white;

6 hours
http://lh5.ggpht.com/_jQvAtrltAlk/Sa3p954A7MI/AAAAAAAAAQA/jjEWBW1kJnw/s800/_DSC4153.JPG

12 hours
http://lh6.ggpht.com/_jQvAtrltAlk/Sa3p8mSCH_I/AAAAAAAAAPw/QLnkQ3yAb98/_DSC4179.JPG

20 hours
http://lh4.ggpht.com/_jQvAtrltAlk/Sa3p733j7uI/AAAAAAAAAPo/doB71T-rS14/_DSC4199.JPG:cry:

[White Worm]

Just give them time.

[simoon]

Will there be any chance the peat soil ball and water softening pillow cause the white eggs? The fish former owner did use it.

[Chad Hughes]

White eggs are not fertilized. Typically it's either a temperature issue (too high) or high water current in the tank. It seems that you have neither issue. You may just have to give them time as suggested above. You just can't rush or "make" successful spawns happen. Just provide everything that is nescessary and wait.

Best wishes!

[mcsinny99]

Will there be any chance the peat soil ball and water softening pillow cause the white eggs? The fish former owner did use it.

I use a softner pillow to lower kh when I want to keep a spawn. That should not be the issue. When the eggs hatch I remove the pillow and raise the kh again, fry like the regular kh about 250-300. I agree with the other posts, they are going to need time to figure it out.

[simoon]

Thanks all for the replies, well the fish are going to spawn again, luckily today is Sunday, I have checked all the water stat, shut down the tank top filter, lowering the sponge filter bubble, adjusted the right temperature. I even cover the whole tank with a blanket. Let see if they make it this time.

[simoon]

The third spawn turn white just like the previous, 12 hours first white and keep increasing until all become white 48+ hours later.

I bought a new pair put them in the same tank with the BD, use an amber color transparent acrylic board to separate them, the old BD pair show aggressiveness through the board guarding their territory. I thought this might stimuli the BD male’s “man hormone” and help the fertility of their eggs.

I remove softening pillow, peat soil. From the tank top filter. Although I know my water is very soft (KH under 1, GH under 2), I still lower my water ph from 7.4 to 6.5 using a phosphate buffer and a few drops of sulfuric acid. I changed the tank top florescent light from violet to white. And wait for their fourth spawn.

The BD spawn again and the same result.
Yesterday the new pair spawn also, 18 hours has passed and the eggs are just like the BD’s, a few turn white, the other stay as amber clear as they wwere just been laid. I assume they will all be white within the next 30 hours.

My water stat
Water change 50 % in the morning, 50 % in the evening
Tape water through a 3 stage filter housing
1st housing, activated carbon
2nd housing, Pentek 0.5 micro Carbon-Briquette Cartridges [Link] (http://www.pentekfiltration.com/en-us/Products/CarbonCartridges/CBC+Series.htm)
3rd housing, Pentek Mixed Bed Deionization Cartridges [Link] (http://www.pentekfiltration.com/en-us/Products/SpecialtyCartridges/PCF+Series.htm)
Temperature 84.2 F
PH 6.5
Chlorine 0
Ammonia 0
Nitrite 0
KH < 1
GH < 2

Should I give them more time or is there something wrong in my water?

[simoon]

A little progress, after 48 hours, 8 eggs were left and I can see they have turned dark. The other white eggs were not eaten by the parent and they have not much mold on them.

The next 12 hours those darken eggs turn white one by one. So are those eight dark egg fertilized? If yes, what make them turn white? Will my tank has any kind of bug, parasite, worm that eat eggs?

[Chad Hughes]

It's likely the eggs are not fertile. How old is your pair?