Help..My discus are dying

[dkratzer1]

I have a 300 gallon tank with 12 discus. My temp is 90 ammonia 0 nitrites 0 nitrates 5. It is a fully planted tank. My problem I have had these discus for about 6 months..everything has been fine. I have 3 wild caught tefe green discus, they started to get sick. One of them quit eating and had white poo. I treated the tank with internal/external parasite meds. Then the other 2 started getting sick..Hanging to the back of the tank and not eating. Now they are in bad shape. They are black and dying. They are scratching. Which I thought was a sign of external parasites. I have been putting metro in..Now the rest of my discus are getting the same thing. I am at a loss as to what to do next. I was doing 50% water changes once a week. Now every 2-3 days. I use half RO water and half tap water. Please if you know what to do, let me know before the rest of them die.

[Chad Hughes]

If you are using CO2, turn it off......completely! Sick discus cannot have CO2 injection. Trust me!

[dkratzer1]

We are not using co2

[Chad Hughes]

OK, what are your water perameters?

KH
GH
Ph
Temp

What water conditioner are you using and how are you adding it to the new water?

Do you filter the tap that you use with your RO water (i.e. carbon block)?

You have treated with drugs without success, so I am trying to determine if you have a contamination issue.

[mmorris]

It sounds like external parasites now, which the metro won't help. I would use Quick Cure in this case but I suggest you re-post in the disease section. Can you post a picture?

[dkratzer1]

The tds meter is registering 75 ppm
The ph is 6.8
the temp is 90
We do not filter the tap water.
We think it is external parasites, but have treated for them. We got the medicine for internal and external parasites...It has metro and prazi in it. It is supposed to treat both. This discus were fine a week ago. I don't know how to post a picture as I am new to the site. But they are bad. No color..laying on the bottom close to death. Their slime coat is off. The smaller discus I have are losing their slime coat also. You can see blotches where they are dull. I am doing another water change as we speak and am going to more medicine in. We got the parasite clear medicine that has metro and prazi in it. It doen't seem to be helping.

[Chad Hughes]

I am at a loss as well....

mmorris suggested quick cure. I'm not sure what is in that.

Have there been any other events that may have triggered this? Reaching at this point!

[Don Trinko]

I'm no expert but with a TDS of 75 your KH could be low. (under 4) Low kh will cause ph to crash. This is hard on the fish. Don T.

[dkratzer1]

Nothing..I just don't understand it..these fish were perfect a week ago. I have already tried quick cure..nothing. quick cure is for fungus or external parasites. I know that the three wild caught discus I have got it first. Now the rest of them are getting it. It is just heartbreaking when you don't know what to do. 3 of them have been laying on the bottom for 3 days dying.

[dkratzer1]

but the ph is testing 6.8. which is good

[dkratzer1]

I have checked every site on the web..have done everything. I also added salt to the water. I am just at a loss.

[Chad Hughes]

Nothing..I just don't understand it..these fish were perfect a week ago. I have already tried quick cure..nothing. quick cure is for fungus or external parasites. I know that the three wild caught discus I have got it first. Now the rest of them are getting it. It is just heartbreaking when you don't know what to do. 3 of them have been laying on the bottom for 3 days dying.

Good call. I can't believe that I missed that! Wow!

Yes, your TDS is very low. Has it been this way the whole time? Typical favorable TDS that I have seen is anywhere from 120 to 200 ppm. It's likely that you have a low KH and even lower GH. There are not enough mineerals in your water. You may want to do this water change (about 30%) with tap water.\

Best wishes!

[dkratzer1]

The water hardness has always been this.

[White Worm]

How are you medicating a tank that large? Are you sure you are using the correct dosage? Thats a lot of meds for the correct amount in a tank that size. I would move them to a smaller tank (Bare bottom) with clean tap water and medicate. Quick cure is good for external issues first, just make sure you follow the directions carefully.

[Eddie]

How are you medicating a tank that large? Are you sure you are using the correct dosage? Thats a lot of meds for the correct amount in a tank that size. I would move them to a smaller tank (Bare bottom) with clean tap water and medicate. Quick cure is good for external issues first, just make sure you follow the directions carefully.

I agree with WW, it is surprising that the TDS would affect them now after 6 months of no issues.

Definitely get them into a smaller QT tank that is Barebottom.

Eddie

[dkratzer1]

It's not easy medicating a tank this large, trust me, it's not cheap. I put the quick cure in as per directions. I put a drop per gallon like the directions said. The other meds are in tablets, you just dissolve them and put them in. I have to medicate the whole tank..all of the discus have whatever it is. I have angelfish and corys and a few gouramis in the same tank and they are fine.

[dkratzer1]

Just wanted to let you know that I appreciate everyones help!

[Eddie]

It's not easy medicating a tank this large, trust me, it's not cheap. I put the quick cure in as per directions. I put a drop per gallon like the directions said. The other meds are in tablets, you just dissolve them and put them in. I have to medicate the whole tank..all of the discus have whatever it is. I have angelfish and corys and a few gouramis in the same tank and they are fine.

When medicating a planted/substrate tank with an F&MG mixture, a lot of the effectiveness of the meds are diminished. Getting them in a QT tank will be alot more effective on the fish and it will be alot more cost effective for you. ;)

Eddie

[texasdiscusman]

When was your last water change ?

[dkratzer1]

I did a 50% water change on Sunday. I just one about an hour ago.

[dkratzer1]

They are scratching alot. They have like a white film all over them, even over their eyes. It is not mucus though. Just a white film.

[poconogal]

Sounds like they might have this:

CHILODONELLA:

SYMPTOMS: Fish has a grey-white film of excess mucus covering its body. Gills may be swollen.

ORGANISM: Ciliated protozoan

How long did you treat with Quick Cure? The recommended medication for this is FMG which is in QC. You can also give each affed Discus a salt dip (aquarium salt, table salt or kosher salt is fine). Instructions should be posted here on SD on how to do this. After the salt dip, medicate with Quick Cure in a QT tank that is bare bottom would be best.

[Chad Hughes]

I agree with WW, it is surprising that the TDS would affect them now after 6 months of no issues.

Definitely get them into a smaller QT tank that is Barebottom.

Eddie

Eddie,

True. I didn't know that it had been that low. It's still too low though. I would think this would be stressful on the fish.

[Eddie]

Could be Chad and it very may have allowed the external organisms to take over the fish due to the stress. Alot of it can be a combination of things. Water is number one.

Eddie

[dkratzer1]

I checked on that too. The film is not mucusy and their gills are not swollen. I just remembered about 2 weeks ago I had a algae bloom. I put some algae control in made by tetra. I was wondering if these being wild caught discus that it may have affected them. It says on the bottle that it is safe for fish and plants. But the wild discus came down with it first. I know that they get some diseases first. The discus were fine until I put this in...I don't know just grasping at straws????????

[White Worm]

I know that my discus had a very bad reaction when I added some algae rid to the tank years back. I had one that swam right through it when I put it in and I swear he was retarded ever since. No longer have him and never again would I add any anti-algae chemical.

[MostlyDiscus]

If I can be of help I would just add that the temp seems kind of high at 90 degrees. If you used a combo drug like parisite guard and raised the temp that high that could be part of the problem. Quick cure seems to be the consensiss and I agree with that, lower temp though. I hope this helps my friend,,, hand in there.

Ed

[Eddie]

Definitely, just as Ed says. QC with a temp around 82 or less.

Eddie

[MostlyDiscus]

Bring down our tempeture down slowly. You can start the treament around 86 or so and continue to bring down your tempeture as you go. Going from 90 to 82 may be too big of a swing. Im thinking like 84 or so for the time being....

[Eddie]

Bring down our tempeture down slowly. You can start the treament around 86 or so and continue to bring down your tempeture as you go. Going from 90 to 82 may be too big of a swing. Im thinking like 84 or so for the time being....

For sure, in my case, the house temp is pretty warm. I can simply unplug my heaters and the temp will slowly decrease over the course of 24-48 hours.

Eddie

[Patr1ck]

Definately need a smaller quaratine tank. More and bigger water changes, min every other day. Make sure you add back the proper amount of med for the amount of water being changed.

Pat

[dkratzer1]

Will it hurt to put the quick cure in with the other meds we already put in the tank? We just did a water change last night and put more of the parasite guard in. Can we still put the cure all in? Did anyone have fish this bad off and still live? The reason I ask is that this morning..they are actually moving a little and using their side fins. I wish I knew how to put pics on.

[MostlyDiscus]

If you see impovement then wait and just lower the temp a couple of degrees. You should see more improvement by tonight. If you do not see much improvement by tomorrow then you will need some kind of carbon to remove the present meds. I may be wrong here but I think that you can wait a couple of days to give the fish a breather, if possible. Sometime we freak out and start throwing all kinds of meds in and the fish are worse off. Hang in there.

Ed

[Chad Hughes]

If you see impovement then wait and just lower the temp a couple of degrees. You should see more improvement by tonight. If you do not see much improvement by tomorrow then you will need some kind of carbon to remove the present meds. I may be wrong here but I think that you can wait a couple of days to give the fish a breather, if possible. Sometime we freak out and start throwing all kinds of meds in and the fish are worse off. Hang in there.

Ed

Ed,

Agreed! I am NOT a medication person. I'll do just about anything before throwing chemicals in a tank. The biologists on this site will agree. Most of the time we just assist in the demise of life with toxic chemicals. I'm not a "green peace" or "pro wild life" person, but I like to keep things as simple as they are in the wild and last time I checked there was no hazmat locker in the amazon to treat for discus illness. You've got to focus on what the problem is in the first place and eliminate all the drama. Ask Hans about the drama! LOL!

Best wishes!

[MostlyDiscus]

HAHA,,, drama, here?



The good thing about meds is that if you catch the problem soon enough you dont need to do much. one treatment of whatever works fast and then your done. The key is to see the symptons early. You are very correct in assessing the problem with most discus ills, identfy the cause of the problem so you dont have to keep using unnessary meds. Lets not even mention the cost of the meds... arggg:(

Ed

[Chad Hughes]

HAHA,,, drama, here?



The good thing about meds is that if you catch the problem soon enough you dont need to do much. one treatment of whatever works fast and then your done. The key is to see the symptons early. You are very correct in assessing the problem with most discus ills, identfy the cause of the problem so you dont have to keep using unnessary meds. Lets not even mention the cost of the meds... arggg:(

Ed

I hadn't even considered the cost! I can only imagine that it would get costly! Imagine all the discus you could buy with that money! LOL!

I have been blessed to have never needed to use a chemical in any tank (knock on wood) since I have raised discus. My only caveat would be some MB wih eggs. You definately have to keep a sharp eye on things though.

Best wishes!

[dkratzer1]

Things aren't getting any better...the discus that seemed to be in good shape are now hanging to the back or bottom of the tank. The ones that were eating and now not eating. They are all getting it. They do have white stringy poo, but you would think that the medicine would be helping. It is just so frustrating. I don't like putting chemicals in the tank either, and we usually never do. Never had too to this point. I did lower the temp.

[Chad Hughes]

Did you cahnage your water with just tap water? What are the perameters of your tap?

[dkratzer1]

We changed the water with half RO water and half tap. That is the way we always do it, because with the tap water the ph and hardness is too high. Mixed together the ph is 6.8 and the hardness is 75-80. My 3 discus that have been sick and moving around a little (and I stress little) but that is better then yesterday. The rest of them are looking worse. It has to be parasites. I was watching them a while ago and (this sounds gross) but one of the gourmais was eating the poo right off one of the discus. I have never seen them do this before.

[MostlyDiscus]

The tap water can change ie cholamaine vs clorine. Tap should always be treated with kind of conditioner, prime or ultimate or run through a carbon block. I do both. Have you brought in any new fish recently since your med treatments? Not just discus but other types? The fact that you have fish with slimly poo just means that they have some kind of gut irratation going on. You treated with parasite clear by jungle? You may have had some kind of neamatodes but have since cleared them out. In the process you may have a secondary baterial infection. Im not sure if the meds you are using cover bactieral issue. The first thing I would do is condition my tap water as Chad is suggesting. The poo thing was a bad visual for sure. Clean fresh water change would help and wait till morning. If they gone in the morning then they may have been pretty far gone to begin with. I hope not. Discus are pretty hardy fish. Clean water for the mean time.


Ed

[poconogal]

Will it hurt to put the quick cure in with the other meds we already put in the tank? We just did a water change last night and put more of the parasite guard in. Can we still put the cure all in? Did anyone have fish this bad off and still live? The reason I ask is that this morning..they are actually moving a little and using their side fins. I wish I knew how to put pics on.
A friend of mine had Discus that were swimming skeletons, they got so bad. When I say they were horrid looking, I'm not exagerating. When I saw pics of them the pics made me gasp!

She lost 5, but 5 pulled through. They had a white film over their bodies, it was Chilondella and she used Quick Cure. After a few days she had to use Maracyn 2 because they developed a secondary bacterial infection. I think by the next day after adding the Maracyn 2, the fish began to eat a bit. It took quite awhile, but they filled out again and are swimming in her tank to this day. This happened maybe 2 years ago.

[MostlyDiscus]

Dont give up on your fish. Like Connie I have seen discus that looked like they had one fin in the grave. They really are a hardy fish. Quick Cure is a good recommendation but you need to get the tempeture down first because QCs main ingredient is formalin. You should see a marked improvement by day two with QC. After that you can tackle whatever internal problems there are. I would try to get the current meds out of the water via using carbon for a day and then add new fresh clean water.

Ed

[Patr1ck]

Does the poo look like sausage kinks strung together or is it in the shape of a curly-q?

Pat

[mmorris]

It may take longer than two days. In fact, they may look worse before they look better. ;) Stick with it.

[MostlyDiscus]

hehe ok Martha I stand corrected. The med will show some improvement in movemnet but they will probally still have a white slime problem. It will completly disappear within the week if everything goes right.

[Aquarium_Discus]

Hi there,
I'm not an expert like most of you guy in this forum.
I agree with most of you guys.
I have this suggestion.
1) get your discus into a small tank (10.0 gal)
2) fill 2/3 with drinking water and 1/3 of your old water.
3) keep the temperature of the QT tank around 85 degree F.
4) use your hand wipe all the white muccuss on your discus body and rinse your discus with the drinking water. (Remember, 100% clean. No white mucuss)
when you're done cleaning, put your discus into a small tank and keep your eyes on it.
5) feed your discus with brine shrimp (not a lot) when you see your discuses start smimming

That's what I did to my discus and it work.

Wish you luck.

[jjhdiscus]

The water hardness has always been this.

You are getting sound advise from some of the best. Nothing I can add except to wish you the best with this.

[MostlyDiscus]

Intresting for sure. Never heard of anyone doing that. My thought is that the drinking water may still be the culprit here. QC will take off that same slime coat within a few days. You may stress the fish more by pulling them out of the water though. Just my humble opinion.

Ed

[mmorris]

4) use your hand wipe all the white muccuss on your discus body and rinse your discus with the drinking water. (Remember, 100% clean. No white mucuss)


If only it were so easy!

[dkratzer1]

I think it is Chilondella. I have been researching it and they do have all the symptoms. I am treating them with quick cure...hopefully it helps. I have 10 out of 13 that are not eating now. I guess I will just have to wait it out.

[dkratzer1]

I really, really, really want to thank you guys for all your help. If anyone would have told me 6 months ago that I would feel this way about fish...I would have called them a liar.

[Eddie]

I really, really, really want to thank you guys for all your help. If anyone would have told me 6 months ago that I would feel this way about fish...I would have called them a liar.

Discus are a species that I find more amazing with every day. ;)

Eddie

[MostlyDiscus]

DK,, on this site you can see where other people are looking by clicking their name. I did see you were on the archives looking up Chiondella. Learning has no price that can be put on it. It is invaluable. Experience is the best teacher, and mistakes are the best lessons. The only mistakes in life are the ones you dont learn from. Find the source of your problems and correct them or it. Many have it written in different ways(Sir Eddie is rather eloquent at it I must say) "Water is the key"

[MostlyDiscus]

How are they doing DK?

[Roxanne]

Chilodonella is treated with salt... did you look in the parasite section of the Simply Library?

[Roxanne]

DK,, on this site you can see where other people are looking by clicking their name. ."

Not if they use tabbed browsing you won't;)

[dkratzer1]

4 dead so far and more on the way to dying. My angels and corys have it now. All their eyes are clouded. They are probably all going to die....I don't know what else to do. Have been treating with quick cure. Doesn't seem to be working. I have looked at everything on the web on every site.

[dkratzer1]

As far as salt..I have salt in the water. But how much? Every web site tells you something different. I put 1 tbsp to every gallon..

[Eddie]

As far as salt..I have salt in the water. But how much? Every web site tells you something different. I put 1 tbsp to every gallon..

For a bath, I use 2 tbsp per gallon but it's for maximum of 10-20 minutes. You have way too much salt IMO. Remove it with WCs

Eddie

[MostlyDiscus]

The thing about QC is you must not put in too much. The formalin is strong and can cause damage ie burning. Are you treating your tap water before it goes in the tank?

[dkratzer1]

I haven't put any other salt in and we did 2 water changes since I put it in. We use RO water and tap. We do not treat the tap water. On the back of the QC bottle..it says to put it in everyday until the problem goes away.

[Eddie]

I haven't put any other salt in and we did 2 water changes since I put it in. We use RO water and tap. We do not treat the tap water. On the back of the QC bottle..it says to put it in everyday until the problem goes away.


That's right, keep the temp low, 82 or less. After 12 hours, I do a 25% or more WC and redose. If the fish are not reacting positively to the med, I would have to go with another issue. I go for three days and if does not help, its something else. Maybe water!

Eddie

[dkratzer1]

I am doing a massive water change today...over 1/2. I don't have the temp down that low..it is about 86. I just unplugged one of my heaters. That should make it go down slowly. I have 7 heaters on the tank. Like I said..my plan today is to do this massive water change and add more of the QC. I didn't get a chance to change water yesterday. Yesterday the angels were still eating and acting normal..now they aren't. I just tried to feed them and nothing in the tank is eating..not even the gouramis. Most of the fish will be dead in 3 days. They are gettng worse by the day.

[dkratzer1]

They don't have a white film on them anymore...Just their eyes are all clouded over. There is nothing in the tank moving..They are all laying on the bottom or up laying at the top. They still have white poo.

[Eddie]

I am doing a massive water change today...over 1/2. I don't have the temp down that low..it is about 86. I just unplugged one of my heaters. That should make it go down slowly. I have 7 heaters on the tank. Like I said..my plan today is to do this massive water change and add more of the QC. I didn't get a chance to change water yesterday. Yesterday the angels were still eating and acting normal..now they aren't. I just tried to feed them and nothing in the tank is eating..not even the gouramis. Most of the fish will be dead in 3 days. They are gettng worse by the day.

Cloudy eyes usually points to water quality. I would hold out on the QC and just do heavy daily water changes. See how the fish react to it, and then go from there.

Eddie

[dkratzer1]

I just now read your email..I did 175 gallon water change and added more medicine (I just now read your email about not putting more medicine in) I had 3 dead so far this morning. But My 3 Big wild caught discus..the ones that had it first..2 of them are actually swimming around this morning. The third is swimming around, but doesn't look good at all. He is the worst of the 3. The ones that died were all small ones, I think they were too weak to fight it off. The big ones look horrible though. They look like they have wax coming off them. The Heckle is discolored. I know someone said about the QC would burn them if too much was put in..but I followed the directions. 1 drop per gallon. I am going to do a 25% water change again today, Upon your advice I am not going to put any QC in today. I think they are on the verge of getting better. Them swimming around is a big improvement over yesterday. I also put some air stones in the water to make sure they are getting enough oxygen. I know that plants suck the oxygen out at night. It seems to have helped. If you have any other suggestions, please let me know. There still isn't anything eating in the tank.

[Eddie]

I just now read your email..I did 175 gallon water change and added more medicine (I just now read your email about not putting more medicine in) I had 3 dead so far this morning. But My 3 Big wild caught discus..the ones that had it first..2 of them are actually swimming around this morning. The third is swimming around, but doesn't look good at all. He is the worst of the 3. The ones that died were all small ones, I think they were too weak to fight it off. The big ones look horrible though. They look like they have wax coming off them. The Heckle is discolored. I know someone said about the QC would burn them if too much was put in..but I followed the directions. 1 drop per gallon. I am going to do a 25% water change again today, Upon your advice I am not going to put any QC in today. I think they are on the verge of getting better. Them swimming around is a big improvement over yesterday. I also put some air stones in the water to make sure they are getting enough oxygen. I know that plants suck the oxygen out at night. It seems to have helped. If you have any other suggestions, please let me know. There still isn't anything eating in the tank.


Sorry to hear about you losing the little guys. One thing to remember, when doing big WCs make sure the water is of almost the exact same parameters. Same PH, same Temp. Is there any way you can snap some pictures of the fish?

Keep up with the WCs and just monitor them.

Eddie

[dkratzer1]

Hello Eddie, I am going to try to get some pics. I will have to email them to you..I don't know how to do it any other way. We do make sure the ph and temp are the same when we do the water changes. They always seem to be a little better when we change the water. The big heckle is the one that has me worried. His skin looked better yesterday before we added more medicine. Today he is moving around more but looks horrible. I have 4 of the the 4" discus left, 3 of them look a little better today. I am trying to get the temp down some more..I have my heaters turned to 82 but with the air temp the tank is still about 85.

[dkratzer1]

I think I may have managed to get my pics on here.

[dkratzer1]

The tefe green is the worst one. He got it first. I am sure he is going to die. I have another tefe green that is in better shape than this one. The pictures show pretty good detail of what they look like.

[dkratzer1]

My ph has shot up from adding the meds. It is in the 8's. I haven't done the water change today yet. I am at a loss.

[dkratzer1]

Here are 2 more pics..This is the other tefe green along with another pic of the heckle.

[Chad Hughes]

You have water problems. Something has changed in your source water. There is no way that meds have caused your water parameters to go that far out of control. In post #4 and post #12 I tried to address this. The first thing that you always much do is examine your water sources to see if anything has changed. Sorry that you are having so many problems.

Best wishes!

[dkratzer1]

We are doing a water change now. I tested the ph of the water we are putting in and it is neutral. We are not done with the change yet, but I will test it again when it's all put in the tank.

[dkratzer1]

Could it be the substrate tainting the water?? We have a layer of dirt, a layer of sand and a layer of gravel for the plants. But for the last 2 or 3 months we have had carpet algae growing on the bottom and can't seem to get rid of it. Could this be causing the problem and tainting the water? We have noticed the fish start to do better for a while with a water change. They seem to hug the outflow pipe. Then after about 24-36 hours they start to get worse again. We are moving them to two bear bottom tanks. We are just hoping the move doesn't kill them. That is why we didn't move them a few days ago..because of the stress.

[Chad Hughes]

What substrate do you have in your tank? Does it possibly contain coral or shell? This would raise your Ph. Another issue to consider is if your water has a high level of CO2 in it. If it does, it may read neutral out of the tap and then rise in Ph with CO2 outgassing.

Will you be medicating in the bare bottom tanks? If not, I would suggest either filtering the water that you are using out of your tap through a carbon filter or adding carbon to the filter of the bare bottom tanks. I feel that you have source water contamination. Did you ever test your GH and KH levels? This will help determine if you have a mineral deficiency.

Best wishes!

[dkratzer1]

Coming out of the tap water the hardness is 168ppm on a tds meter, most of that hardness is lime the other is iron. Out of the tap water and RO water that we use we have jewel cichlids, parrot cichlids, and angel fish breeding like crazy in other tanks. We have about 10 tanks set up. All the other ones are fine. We haven't had a bit of trouble with them. This is the only one that is planted and has this dirt, sand, and gravel mixture. The PH in the tank was neutral yesterday..until we added the medicine. The co2 could be high in this tank, I do not have a meter to test this. If the water was contaminated I don't think the other fish would be doing so well.. I even have a elephant nose, and they are picky too. It is just this tank. The ph in all the other tanks are neutral. There is no coral or shell in the substrate

[dkratzer1]

The discus are getting worse as we speak. The heckel is swimming anymore. I don't know if they will survive moving them. The angel fish in the tank have red at the base of their fins. I checked this out on the web and it says it is a bacterial infection. The angel fish just started getting sick 2 days ago. Could this be a secondary problem, because the discus did seem to be getting a little better and now they are worse. We haven't been treating for a bacterial infection. Do you think I should put some medicine in the barebottom tank?

[dkratzer1]

I really think you are right about the co2. We've been thinking and none of the fish got sick until I had that hugh algae bloom. Then the 1st discus started getting sick. If I'm right the co2 would have broken down their ammune system???

[jonboy1969]

You said in an earlier thread that you were not injecting CO2, so CO2 could not be your problem. I too have a planted tank and inject CO2. The only way to get to dangerous levels of CO2 in a tank would be to inject it. OR possibly, but highly unlikely, if you somehow you have a high level of carbonic acid that is converting into soluble CO2.
there is a great article that I refer too when I get into discussions about ph/CO2 and the benefits/harms for fish.
http://www.csd.net/~cgadd/aqua/art_plant_co2chart.htm
Im sorry to hear/read about all the problems you are having. I can only guess what the problem could be, and that would be no help whatsoever.
best wishes.
Jon
I am in no way a Discus 'pro' but I have kept fish/planted tanks for well over 25 years. (just some useless background on me)

[dkratzer1]

Thanks for your imput..I don't know much about co2 in water. Just a guess on my part.

[Chad Hughes]

So, are you injecting CO2 or not? I'm confused.

[frenchie100]

So sorry to hear about everything you are going through.

If I were you, I would try to repost this in the disease section to see if you could get more ideas and opinions.

Good luck,

Julie

[Eddie]

dk,

Your fish could very well be suffering from a bacterial secondary infection. Do you have any meds for bacteria infections?

Eddie

[dkratzer1]

I separated the discus, put them in a bare bottom tank. I medicated the main tank with the angel fish, gouramis, and corys with melafix. I didn't put any meds in the bare bottom. The angel fish are doing much better this morning, they are eating. I only have 4 discus left. I put the melafix in with them. I really don't expect them to live either. Chad, we are NOT injecting CO2 into the tank. The carpet algae is just so bad in the tank that I thought maybe at night it was leaving off too much co2. We can vaccum the algae out and the next day it is covered again. The plants are growing great. We do not have any problems in any of our other tanks...I really think the substrate is causing some problems. Like I said, we do not have this substrate or plants in any of the other tanks and the fish are multiplying like crazy. I am waiting to see if the angel fish start getting worse again as the day goes on. They all seem to get a little better after a water change. Then as the day goes on, they get worse again. Actually the discus do look a little better this morning. I lost 2 more between last night and this morning, but I didn't think that they would take the move very good.

[Chad Hughes]

OK. I just wanted to make sure you were not using CO2. What kind of substrate do you have in the tank? Does it contain shell or coral or is it standard aquarium gravel?

The reason that I ask is that if your substrate contains anything that leaches carbonate in to your tank, it will increase the Ph in to the upper 8s. This WILL stress the crap out of your discus and I think explains why water changes are causing them to look better temporarily.

I would do the following:

1. Put your discus in bare bottom tanks and hold them there.

2. Tear down the planted tank. Hold the plants in a bucket while you remove the substrate. In my honest opinion I would replace the substrate with sand. It just works better with discus.

3. Replant the tank and monitor things for a couple of days. Look for any Ph shifts or other parameter shifts.

4. You are ready to add your discus back to the tank.

I hope this helps. Sorry for your losses! Breaks my heart.

Best wishes!

[MostlyDiscus]

I AGREE WITH CHAD, treat your new tap water comming in.

[jonboy1969]

I agree with MostlyDiscus

[dkratzer1]

I have the discus in a bare bottom tank. We have a layer of dirt..a layer of sand..and a layer of gravel. The ph has been holding at 6.8-7. The only time it went up was when we put the meds and the salt in. Otherwise we weren't having any trouble with the ph. I have been montoring the angel fish still left in the tank..They were doing good this morning. (we did a water change last night) Now, they are back to the way they were..fins down hanging in the back of the tank. The carpet algae in our tank is bad. Like I said we vaccum it out one day and the next it is all back. Could the dirt in the bottom of the tank be growing mold? We are taking the whole tank down and removing the substrate. If you just have sand for a substrate..How do you keep it clean? I really don't know if I am going to put discus back in the tank after this experience. I love them, but I can't stand to sit around and watch them die like this.

[Chad Hughes]

I believe that you definately have a substrate issue. I am surorised to hear that the meds were raising your Ph that high. I was certain that you have something in your substrate that was doing this. Regardelss, dirt IMO is just not suited for an aquarium. I know htat some poeple use it with great success, just not my way of doing things. I'm assuming that the dirt that you are using is not potting soil. Almost all potting soil has additives that are not welcome in an aquarium. If your soil has anything at all in it, it's probably being leeched slowly in to the tank water through the sand bed.

Sand in a discus tank works very well. Sand, unlike gravel, does not allow waste to enter it. Feces, uneaten food, etc. all sit on the surface of the sand. Much like a BB tank, you can simply siphon off the waste as you see it. Sand is also a good plant bed material. I use it in all my planted tanks. Some people use pool filter sand. I myself have never tried it. I use play sand from home depot. It's inert and clean. It's cleaned for use in children's sand boxes, so it's pretty safe. I think it's made by quickrete. Hope this helps!

Best wishes!

[jonboy1969]

"Mold" is a very general term which can mean a few different things, depending on who you're speaking with. But in general mold grows from spores and are not aquatic.
Its most likely a bacterial infection or 'fungi', it can grow on fish if they're stressed, but rarely attacks healthy fish. If you see "fuzz" growing on your fish, you should first determine if this is one of the "fungi" or a bacterial condition known as Columnaris. You can tell these apart because the "fungus" will have straighter filaments and the infection will have an irregular shape where the Columnaris will be matted with the filaments twisted together and the outline of the infection will be more circular.
Mold won't grow Underwater.

[jonboy1969]

Molds are in the Kingdom of Fungi. like yeasts, rusts, stinkhorns, puffballs, truffles, mildews and mushrooms.

Types of Fungi can grow underwater. Types of Molds do NOT grow underwater. if anyone knows the genus and species of MOLD that grows underwater let me know. I dont know of one.

Molds are microscopic multicellular organisms that grow as long, tangled strands and form visible colonies. Reproduction is primarily a function of spore development and air dispersal.

Some species of 'fungi' can grow at relatively low moisture levels, levels that would not be considered 'wet' in ordinary terms . Other types of 'fungi' require significant amounts of moisture for optimum growth. So if it grows underwater and looks like "mold" doesnt make it mold. its another type of Fungi.

[jonboy1969]

Your "water molds" are NOT true molds, they are Oomycota and as you pointed out and are in the kingdom Protista! They may be known as 'Water Molds' since they were classified INCORRECTLY as Fungi years upon years ago. It has since been discovered that they are NOT molds. People like yourself have sadly hung on to the belief that they are molds, and still call them that.

If you follow proper Taxonomy You start with 4 Kingdoms (arguably 5 for some) they are:
1. Plants
2. Animals
3. Fungi
4. Protista
and (Stramenopila)? possibly

I cant get into it all tonight....

Once again just because its easier to say Water Mold then an Oomycota does NOT make it a Mold.
Molds Do Not grow under water, but your filamentous, unicellular Heterokonts that RESEMBLE fungi do.

name me a 'true' mold under the Kingdom Fungi. Where all the molds are classified.

Ill wait. probably for a long time.

Having 2 doors on a Ford Escort doesn't make it a sports car either.

[Chad Hughes]

You guys should start a mold thread. Maybe it'll become a sticky! :)

This is off topic. Sorry!

[Eddie]

You guys are crazy LOL, alright alright, the classification thing is pretty in depth. I am still trying to figure out where that topic came up for this thread. :)

You guys should throw some of that expert knowledge at the mans dying discus. :o

Eddie

[Chad Hughes]

You guys should start a mold thread. Maybe it'll become a sticky! :)

This is off topic. Sorry!

I tried!


You guys are crazy LOL, alright alright, the classification thing is pretty in depth. I am still trying to figure out where that topic came up for this thread. :)

You guys should throw some of that expert knowledge at the mans dying discus. :o

Eddie

AMEN!

[jonboy1969]

Read what your sending. It reinforces what I am saying.

The guy from Berkley:
"Water molds were once thought to be fungi."
Now if Water molds were once thought to be fungi and named after fungi, why are we still going around and calling it a mold?

They were named wrong in the beginning. the name stuck, INCORRECTLY. I am saying its time to start calling them something else besides water molds since they are NOT true molds.

the main reason for this: The treatment for a fungal infection or an organism with a chitinous cell wall would be different from a bacterial infection in a different Kingdom (your water molds).

1) Fungi are heterotrophs with chitinous cell walls composed of hyphae, they are generally multicellular and may reproduce sexually and asexually, most but not all, are found on land.

2) Protists (including your water molds) are varied, and may have chlorophyll, cellulose cell walls or membranes, can be multicellular or unicellular, many are aquatic either fresh or marine environments. They have sexual and asexual reproduction. they do not have Chitin.

Maybe were both right, maybe both wrong.

Im done with this subject its getting boring.

Hopefully I can get back to raising healthy discus.

*Sigh*

[dkratzer1]

Thanks everyone. I appreciated all your help. The last of the discus died this morning. I don't know if I'll be getting anymore or not. I am definately going to do the tank over without the dirt. Which that probably wasn't causing it anyway. I just know that I have 10 tanks with all different kinds of fish and never had anything happen like this. The other tanks are fine. No deaths. Never had water issues in those tanks. So I know that discus are difficult. I have other "difficult" fish with no problems. Not one of those tanks have dirt, sand or live plants. That was a hugh loss, both heartbreaking and expensive..14 discus in all..Again, thanks for all the help.

[Chad Hughes]

I'm heartbroken to hear of your total loss. As we have really no definate reason as to why your discus expired, we have to assume that the differences are to blame.

I for one would not use "soil" in a fish tank. Use a substrate that is known to be completely inert such as sand. Just something to keep in mind in the future. Again, my condolences on your loss. You went through a lot in the end.

Best wishes!

[frenchie100]

I am so sorry you lost all of them, I have been following your thread in hope of some good news...

I know the whole water thing was mentioned, and I too, first think it has to be something with the water. Could it possibly be something NEW in the water supply that Discus are more sensitive to than other fish?
Just totally guessing.

I know that a lot of people will say that you don't need RO, but when I got my discus from Kenny there was something in my water they hated ( and yes my water is really hard) and couldn't get used to. I finally broke down and got an RO unit and they love it. I mix it with tap water so they still have minerals, but at least I know that if for some reason there is something in water that is "toxic", a good percentage of it is being filtered out. I consider it my safety net, in a sense.

I have a 100 gallon tank with tropical fish in it that I have had for 7 years and NEVER had a problem.

Then I found out that most people in my area use RO for their discus.

Just thought I would share my experience and maybe something for you to think about.

I really hope you can get some closure on this and get back in the hobby ASAP:D.

Good luck,
Julie

[dkratzer1]

We do have a ro system. We mix it with tap water. My son tends to the ph in the tank, he said for about the last 2 months he has been having trouble with the ph. (which I didn't realize.) He has been adding discus buffer. The tank was set up for about 6 months..the first 4 months we didn't have a trouble with the ph. It stayed at 6.6-6.8. We have done nothing different or added anything to the tank. I would tend to think like you guys that there is something in the tap water, but we use the same water for all the other tanks and the ph in all of them is 6.6-7. What possibly could be causing the shift in ph? That is why I think there is something in the substrate leaching out. When we added the dirt, we just used a bag of topsoil that you buy at walmart. Do you think there could be something is this that would cause the ph problem? It may have taken 4 months for it to leach up through the sand and gravel????? We are tearing the tank down and NOT putting dirt back in. I would just like to know what could have caused this mess. I don't want to repeat any of the same mistakes again. And, I still don't know what really caused the discus to get sick or what sickness they had. I still have 4 big angel fish in the tank...3 of them look OK. The 4th looks sick and hasn't been eating...neither have the gourmais.

[frenchie100]

Topsoil- Unless you are getting the organic kind, this stuff is full of feces, sewage, pesticides, chemicals, you name it. I do a lot of gardening and after talking to my kids pediatrician, he made it very clear to not let young children play with soil ( particularly topsoil, supersoil etc...) without wearing gloves. way too many pathogens. There are certain agricultural byproducts that are alkaline and some that are acidic. Definitely could have affected your pH.

I think you will be good to go without the soil.

That actually gives me a sigh of relief because I think you have your solution!:D

Good luck!

-Julie

[poconogal]

I see that you've been using Melafix. For a real bacterial infection I would not use that. That's good for minor issues. For red in the fins, probably Septicemia, you need a real antibiotic.

You can use Maracyn 2 with QC. In an earlier post I mentioned about my friend who had this problem. I advised her to use Maracyn 2 after her fish developed a secondary bacterial infection showing red in their fins, most likely Septicemia. She dosed with Maracyn 2 and by the next day her fish were nibbling on a little food. If you haven't already done so, I'd forget the Melafix and treat with Maracyn 2. That is excellent for INTERNAL infections, it contains Minocycline which is readily absorbed internally by the fish.

[shawnhu]

I'd hate to dig an old thread back up, but seeing that this was never "resolved", I'm interested to know if there are any updates.

I too beleive that the soil is to blame here. Although table SALT with anti-caking agents COULD increase the KH/PH, the range of PH 8+ is probably not likely to be the salt's doing.

When you noticed the jump in PH, did you happen to stir the gravel bed in anyway? I noticed that you mentioned you had sand, could this all have started after a gravel vac?

I appologize if I am bringing back bad memories, but I hope that we can get to the bottom of this, but examining the after-math.

Reading this thread was difficult, sorry for your loss.

Shawn

[shawnhu]

Table Salt contains baking soda as one of the ingredients. Again, most likely not enough to cause this type of PH swing, but caution should still be taken.

[Daniella]

That kind of makes me wonder about the white worms I feed my fish, which are in a potting soil mix with peat.

I could not find any potting soil bag that was not enriched with some type of fertilizer..so not sure it's a good thing?

I have been feeding them for 2 weeks and they love it but I wonder if it is safe.



Topsoil- Unless you are getting the organic kind, this stuff is full of feces, sewage, pesticides, chemicals, you name it. I do a lot of gardening and after talking to my kids pediatrician, he made it very clear to not let young children play with soil ( particularly topsoil, supersoil etc...) without wearing gloves. way too many pathogens. There are certain agricultural byproducts that are alkaline and some that are acidic. Definitely could have affected your pH.

I think you will be good to go without the soil.

That actually gives me a sigh of relief because I think you have your solution!:D

Good luck!

-Julie

[Munchkinz]

just got finished reading this thread. I do agree it was probably caused by the top soil, but could this have been caused by a phosphate problem? She stated a few times that she was having an uncontrollable algae growth. I remeber my mom a few years back having a phos. issue with her tank in which she lost quite a few fish, mostly tetra types.