I have a coupld wiggles

[Boomer]

The Colbalt/Snow White pair decided that this wasn't the right time for babies...most of them weren't fertalized..but there were a few that were.

The LSS/Snow White pair...I have wigglers right now, only about 20 which probably means at then end there will be none.

However, my question. I noticed that the wigglers are falling onto the floor of the tank. Mom and dad are noting this..but is this ok, or does it mean inevitable death for them?

[judy]

Those ones won't make it. But I have pairs that have been willing to raise a few as a dozen wigglers. You may be in luck yet.

[Boomer]

Last time I checked there was at least 12 wigglers...and more to come by the colour of the eggs. The parents are gathering up the falling wigglers and spitting them onto the cone. Sometimes they stay..sometimes they don't.

However, on another note..I swear the two that ate their clutch are "dancing" already.

[mmorris]

Those ones won't make it.

Why do you say that Judy? I'm not disagreeing - just curious.

[Boomer]

Well mom and dad moved them...of course only one is staying on the side...but they are still taking turns going from the wiggles just coming out from the clutch area...to the wigglers already moved.

I hope this works out, however, I know better :(

I would like to think they have done well so far for their second clutch.

[judy]

Wigglers that fall to the bottom virtually always die... maybe the parents know that, which is why they don't bother to gather them up and put them back where they hatched, like they do for a day or so with wigglers that just drift off the spot a bit.

[Boomer]

Oh, well mom and dad were picking them back up and spitting them onto the spots now. A little tiring I am sure. I just checked on them and they seem to be trying their best to keep them up...but those that aren't staying up are just being watched intently.

I'm just glad they haven't been eaten so far. Also feel a bit bad because the mom is also checking in to see if anymore are wiggling (at this point I can't see anymore that are going to hatch out)...I'd day about 1/4 got to the wiggler stage..the rest were not fertalized.

[mmorris]

Wigglers that fall to the bottom virtually always die...

So no idea why?

[judy]

Just speculation, but I think it's because they are just too weak. But if mom and dad are putting them back, they may make it... it's only if they stay at the bottom that you can be sure they will die.

[Boomer]

Well....it's 2:30pm here...and I can only find three wigglers. I have spotted a couple that are no longer with us :angel:.

The three that I see are on the ground and mom and dad are at the other end of the tank now. Dad has gone back to his normal colour now. The eggs that were left unfertalized are now gone too. It's a little sad, cause one of the wigglers I can see well, little eyes and all, and it's tail is moving like you wouldn't believe..but since mom and dad are not even noting this, it's only a matter of time.

Is there something that we did/didn't do that would cause the wigglers not to stay up?

[judy]

It seems that if there isn't a decent number of wigglers out of a hatch, the parents just don't bother with them. I've found that roughly fifteen or wenty seems to be a magic number-- fewer than that and the wigglers are abandoned or get eaten.
But this probably means your pair is into a spawning cycle and will likely lay again within a week. If they are young and haven't spawned much before, bear in mind it can take dozens of tries before they succeed.

[Boomer]

Ok, thanks.

Do you know of any reason that would cause the wigglers to not stay attached to the pot? Is it weakness, water quaility or do they typically fall but mom and dad (with experience) are able to keep up with them?

[judy]

Wigglers that are strong enough to survive will tend to wander off their spot for a day or two after they've hatched, and the parents will move them back. After that, the wigglers become freeswimmers for some hours, and during that time they will find the parents' flanks and glom on.
I don't think there's anything that can be done about wigglers that consistently fall to the bottom; that seems to be a sign they're just too weak.
If your parents are young, their babies will eventually be strong enough to make it.

[Boomer]

Well, it turns out I was wrong :confused:

Last night I found 6 wigglers on the ground. Mom and Dad had gathered them in the corner. Dad was dark again (not sure why he's changing again). The wigglers were attempting to swim up but would only get about 4" off the floor and fall gently back down. My husband and I watched for a couple of hours as mom and dad picked them up and tried to spit them on to a maxi jet we have in there (currently turned off of course).

They were leaving them once in a while if we moved towards the door. So when I thought they had left the babies it was probably because they saw us coming and thought "food". We had do to a quick water change cause it was getting a little to dirty for our liking...mom and dad positioned themselves in the corner hovering over their wigglers and didn't make one move the whole time. So I am assuming the corner was their choice for ease of watching over, because these guys are moving around the bottom of the tank. If they get too far out they are picked up and the attempt to stick them on the pump is made again.

Well...only time will tell now for sure. But I have been surprised by their need to survive these last few days. Maybe I will continue to be surprised. :bounce2:

[mmorris]

Just speculation, but I think it's because they are just too weak.

Makes sense. I wonder if the ones that fall developed properly.

[judy]

that dark color on dad is two things: he goes dark so the babies can pick him out in the tank more easily. and he goes dark because of the "film" of discus milk on him in preparation for feeding the wigglers.
Your little ones are in what's called free swimming stage. By tomorrow, you may be able to see them hovering around the parent discus flanks.

[Boomer]

So I know I must sound like a complete idiot but here goes...I thought free swimming was them moving around in the water column not wiggling on the floor of the tank.

I witnessed one of them "swim" up to dad (who was about 4-5" off the floor) and then gently fall back down. There is still 6 - has been since yesterday, so no die offs in a little over 24hrs. Mom and dad are still showing interest in their well being. However, they also seem to be cleaning the power head that they were attempting to put the babies on...wonder if they are getting ready for the next clutch or just taking care of what they now consider the nest.


My second couple seem to be haphazardly cleaning again as well...not one survivor from them however, they got every single egg.

[judy]

Well, it is, actually-- but yours on the bottom may just be too weak to do that. In any case, if this half-dozen doesn't make it and the parents are already cleaning another spot, they are about to try again. Eventually, they will get it right.
I find for some reason all three females in my mated pairs will go after the eggs once they reach wiggler stage. I remove them with as little fuss as possible as soon as the eggs turn to wigglers, and the dad rears the babies quite well on his own.

[Boomer]

Believe it or not but we still have 4 left. Two are free swimming and two still have sacks on them. However, they have no interest in mom/dad and mom and dad try to pick them up once in a while but thats it. My husband did notice a free swimmer try and go on moms tail but was swished off.

Mom and Dad are cleaning the pot again..the activity increases as we move on in the day and both their tubes are down at this point. A little shimmying is happening as well. Guess another round of eggs will be coming very soon.