discus university questions

[kirkp]

I'm posting this here since I didn't want to post on the university page when I wasn't asking for a rating.

First off let me say that I'm not trying to stir up any crap or tick anyone off but just trying to learn. I'm sure that the raters have more experience than I don't when it comes to judging discus. I've always wondered if the scoring was based on a established set of scoring criteria or if a lot of it came down to personal preference. I realize that trying to develop strict criteria for every variety would be next to impossible. However, when I look at some of the fish that maybe only get a 5 I'm confused. When I take a look at the grand champion fish from the Duisburg or Aquarama shows, they have flaws that make me wonder how they'd do on the university. Apparently they're not 10s but are they as close as one can get? Even when you look at wild discus, they'd score poorly as well.

Anyway, hope someone can set me straight.

I also had a question about what fish are appropriate to post? I sent a PM to one of the mods once but it must of been lost in cyberspace. The rules say they don't want juvies but what quantifies this? Is it age, size, ????

Appreciate anyones help on this.

Kirk

[ShinShin]

Kirk,

I may not be the best to answer this, but...

Simply came up with a criteria sheet for judging. You see it used sometimes, other times you just see the final number. In the beginning we were giving higher points than myself, and several others thought a discus deserved. Mostly, no one wanted to hurt anyone's feelings. We discussed it and sort of decided that a 5.0 was an average discus.

The criteria sheet helps one's bias to not effect the scoring, like I personally am not a big pigeonblood fan, and realy think the mutant snow whites are hideous, as are all the variants that have become available. With set criteria, my biased opinion is all but elimenated. I have to judge according to the sheet. I cannot honestly give a poor San Merah, Snakeskin, or Red Turquois higher scores than a good PB or snow white because I like these 3 varieties more.

When a discus is judged live, the judge has a better look at a discus. It is more impressive looking at a discus that is 6.5" SL, that a pic of one that is 6" TL. Many of the pics also do not give a discus justice. Many of the discus shown here would be elimenated in the walk through and nevered scored at a real or live show.

Finally, we are not experts.

Mat

[dishpanhands]

Shin has describes that they grade fish on a logarithmic scale .. That means to get a 10 you need to bribe the judges or you need to be a judge and own the fish..when they use color as a grade that is messed up. To subject to what the judge likes. . Thats like saying a white women with blond hair can't be miss USA because the judge don't like that color.To many problem with the grading system is why I don't mess with it.. It has gotten better in the past few years but still needs some work..

[brewmaster15]

Dish,

when they use color as a grade that is messed up. To subject to what the judge likes. . Thats like saying a white women with blond hair can't be miss USA because the judge don't like that color. Funny but not true. When you rate a fish for color its actually one of the least subjective traits.... as its not being rated on whether the judge like the particular color its being rated on if that color is representative of what it should be for that strain.... Ex... A washed out red Mellon adult isn't going to rate as high as a fully colored one....or a Red turq that has a a very dull base isn't as well received as a red turq with a well developed color for base.


Mat may not like Marlboro Reds on a personal level... but he knows what a fish thats a good representative of a Marlboro red should look like colorwise.


The system is not perfect... lets face it...its not meant to be... we are working off of pictures submitted to us verses seeing the fish in person.... Theres a set of Criteria we use that is generalized to areas we can judge by under these circumstances.. You can get a feel for how this works in this thread...

http://www.forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?t=67141&page=14

Every set of judging criteria used in contests and evaluations is flawed to some extent and subject to how a judge interprets the guildlines they have against what they have trained themselves to look for.. Results in the University are not meant as solid determinations... they are useful for those interested in learning where potential weak areas exist in the fish they may want to show...nothing else...

The judges we have here are volunteers, grading fish based on their experiences and against a grading system that tries to be a fair representation of a system that may be encountered in a real world competition....

If people have specific ideas on making it better I'd be very interested in discussing them...keep in mind.. Just finding people that are dedicated enough to the hobby and have time and experience enough with discus to act as judges is a challenge in itself!

Best regards,
al

[dishpanhands]

I was just trying to tell them that they are grading how close a fish comes to being average and not how close that fish is to being perfect and the curve they are using is almost impossible to get a 10.. the color has enough of subject-able to keep it from being a 10 if the judge wants.

[brewmaster15]

Got you, I misunderstood.:)

-al

[dishpanhands]

to grade to perfect we would have to have one to start with.. with the judging the way it is we will never see one. they will all never agree on the perfect fish..once we had one we could compare it to determine grades. they have not IMO defined a perfect fish well enough..

[dishpanhands]

I guess my problem is I collect coins and the way they grade makes sence to me and fish don't...LOL

[kirkp]

Thanks everyone for their responses. Again I wasn't trying to rile anyone up or belittle the services they provide to the forum. I have the utmost respect for everyone that supports what happens here, from Al down to every one of the admins. It takes a lot of work on their part as well as much dedication.

It's true that no matter how much you try to define the standards there's always some subjectivity that enters into it. What I was wondering and what I didn't express very well had to do with what a ten discus would look like. I hear reference to finnage not starting in the correct place, flat head, humped head, weak chin. Is there something that shows what a discus should really be if it were perfect?

Also, any thought on my question about what makes the cut on a juvie or adult?

Thanks again to everyone.

Kirk

[dishpanhands]

best guage I have seen Is a circle with a tail drawn on it... this is like saying what does a perfect man look like..


Also, any thought on my question about what makes the cut on a juvie or adult?adults are over a year to a year and a half old.. How old are humans become adults? you see it early in some and late in others.

[brewmaster15]

Hi Kirk,
A perfect 10 fish would be very hard to find, IMO.. In reality what we are looking at is What a 10 fish is by todays standards... that changes year to year, and our guidelines will as well.... For me... I look at the fish that win at international Contests for guidance as to what the Community in general thinks are great fish.. keep in mind that there is no international group that sets standards for discus...so each show generally judges by their own criteria....and as a result... a perfect 10 is not really going to hold out by different criteria...

For our university ratings we like to see fish that are at least a year old... even then Discus continue to mature in size and color for months to years latter... We set that year criteria because we want to get a feel for color, shape and pattern and many wanted us to rate their 3" fish...which is largely a waste of time at that small size.


hth,
al

[Tito]

Hum...

I thought a perfect Disus was one that comes out of the natural habitat...

who else but mother nature makes the best Discus?

As well...should we not be comparing our tank raised Disucs to their wild cousins? At least as far as shape, size, fins and eyes go? Except the colors?

[brewmaster15]

l
Hum...

I thought a perfect Disus was one that comes out of the natural habitat...

who else but mother nature makes the best Discus?

As well...should we not be comparing our tank raised Disucs to their wild cousins? At least as far as shape, size, fins and eyes go? Except the colors?
Wilds are given their own class in most competitions and when we rate them in the university we rate them as wilds....not against domestics.... it would not be fair to rate them against domestics...and it would be unrealistic to rate a domestic against wilds.

Theres also big misconception out there on exactly what a wild specimen should look like... I've seen many and what you see on the web and in books is a fraction of whats out there shape and pattern wise...that makes it even harder, IMO. The majority of wilds are not really remarkable looking... though I like them all personally.


-a

[MostlyDiscus]

I have a BU 1909SVDB that grades a 10(its perfectly round):D I really dont but my brother owns a coin shop.

My thought on the grading system here was that if it scored high then had a really really nice fish. I have noticed that people get upset with the answers but keep in mind that the fish are thier pets. If they put their dog in a dog show would it score high?? Maybe some but certainly not all. I see this thread as being a great assest later for me in determaining my future breeders.

Ed

[dishpanhands]

I have a BU 1909SVDB that grades a 10(its perfectly round):D I really dont but my brother owns a coin shop.

To be BU it would have to be 60 or higher..

My point is they have it so far down that they can take a picture and a computer does the grading.. That take a lot of defining to do that, and it take a lot of the human judgement out.

[brewmaster15]

My point is they have it so far down that they can take a picture and a computer does the grading.. That take a lot of defining to do that, and it take a lot of the human judgement out.Lol... I don't see us ever getting to that point with discus!..then again...some day...maybe we'll just have to send in a blood sample or tail snip...they'll run a DNA analysis AND THE WINNER IS....:D

-AL

[Scribbles]

Nothing is perfect. There is always room for improvement. Otherwise we wouldn't try to breed better discus or anything else for that matter. That being said, the perfect discus for me are downstairs in my tank and I enjoy and love them. They are all 10s to me.:)

[Tito]

Nothing is perfect. There is always room for improvement. Otherwise we wouldn't try to breed better discus or anything else for that matter. That being said, the perfect discus for me are downstairs in my tank and I enjoy and love them. They are all 10s to me.:)

Agreed.

[John_Nicholson]

I need to apologize for some of my judging of late. I have found that when I use the score card my average score will drop between 1 and 1.5 points. But lately I have been swamped at work and we have had some entries that were sitting around not getting judged. I tried to jump in and rush though them. We all know what happens when you rush. You end up doing a poor job. I am afraid that some of the confusing lately has been because my scoring has been a wee bit on the high side. Sorry about that. Luckily I finally have a high speed internet connection at home( it is wireless so we will see how well it holds up) so I can now take my time and do a better job.

Like has been said above judging from a picture is a fairly difficult thing to do, but even with its imperfections I hope that the University has provided at least some insight into what judges are looking for.

-john

[Eddie]

IMO, I think the judging is more than accurate. The judges do a great job in their grading system. As stated, their may never be a 10 discus. So the person with an average 5 should actually be quite content with their fishes grade.

Keep up the great work!

Eddie

[ShinShin]

I was just trying to tell them that they are grading how close a fish comes to being average and not how close that fish is to being perfect and the curve they are using is almost impossible to get a 10.. the color has enough of subject-able to keep it from being a 10 if the judge wants.

Dish,

I have never seen a 10. I have seen fish Dick Au and Jack Wattley graded as high as 94 in a 100 point scale at a live show. Nothing here so far has come close to that. It is also different seeing a fish live than a photo. Alot of the discus shown here would be passed up on the walk through and not even graded. This is not a contest here. Like Al said, it is to show people what to look for by showing them what they have. I am not grading a fish by how close it comes to average, rather I subtract from 10 (perfect). No matter what you may or may not think, the criteria does help to keep subjectivity to a minimum. No discus, wild or domestic, is judged against any other discus. The are judged by a predetermined set of standards.

Mat

[dishpanhands]

Dish,

I have never seen a 10. I have seen fish Dick Au and Jack Wattley graded as high as 94 in a 100 point scale at a live show. Nothing here so far has come close to that. It is also different seeing a fish live than a photo. Alot of the discus shown here would be passed up on the walk through and not even graded. This is not a contest here. Like Al said, it is to show people what to look for by showing them what they have. I am not grading a fish by how close it comes to average, rather I subtract from 10 (perfect). No matter what you may or may not think, the criteria does help to keep subjectivity to a minimum. No discus, wild or domestic, is judged against any other discus. The are judged by a predetermined set of standards.

Mat

Mat you said your doing it in your first post...


We discussed it and sort of decided that a 5.0 was an average discus.


when you did that you are judge to average.. When is a average fish only half way to perfect? or half way to the poor side. your saying that the average fish is as close to being poor as it is to being perfect..I think the average fish is closer to perfect then it is to the poor side.

[brewmaster15]

when you did that you are judge to average.. When is a average fish only half way to perfect? or half way to the poor side. your saying that the average fish is as close to being poor as it is to being perfect..I think the average fish is closer to perfect then it is to the poor side. Everyone can look at a rating system as they want to but I think we are starting to nit pick here... seriously.


We are using a 10 point system... 10 is the highest , 5 is average and you can figure out the rest...

Why is 5.0 average... because its the median value between 10 and 0....

I really don't think we need to break the university rating down any further... If you do poorly on a fish thats rated in the university ..look at the reasons why and learn from it...you'll probably not do well with that fish in a competition. If you do well with a fish in a the university ... you may want to try that fish in a competition..who knows.... Thats the point of the university..its to learn from other peoples fish.. if you look at enough of the entries, maybe you'll get a better feel for what is generally a good fish and whats generally not.

Note..this has nothing to do with fish that are Pets...and it has absolutely no bearing on whether a fish submitted is a good fish for breeding.....Breeding and showing are not the same thing.

Lets try not to make the university something its not trying to be.:)

-al

[KDodds]

If I may, I think the "problem" (there really isn't one when you really stop to think about it) is much like it is in the "show dog" world. When an animal is graded for the purpose of appearance of perfection, no method will rule out subjectivity entirely. That's a given, something that has to be "lived with". So what you're looking at, ultimately, is trying to find the animal that pleases the most "judges" the most. Not an animal that is YOUR ideal animal. If you look at show dogs, let's take one breed, the Rottweiler, you'll find an animal that will likely NEVER top Westminster. Why? Because, by and large, as of this point in time, most AKC judges are biased against most working breeds. It doesn't matter whether or not the animal in the competition is perfect or not, or whether or not it can ace OB, Schutzhund, or other trials. If there's a small terrier that's close, it'll be the "winner". Okay, so let's ignore the inter-breed competitions, right? Okay. Take a look at the Rottweilers you see. They're all or mostly super stocky, big boned, bruisers, right? You can thank "shows" for that. The REAL Rottweiler was not really much of anything like the Rottweilers of today (and this holds true for almost all AKC breeds). They were really much closer to Doberman Pinschers (which were developed using Rottweilers as one of the breeds), no, not as thin and lithe as Dobermans, but something closer to that than the squat dogs you see today. My first Rott was a working German dog, 28" at the shoulder and 135lbs in top shape. No bear-like blockhead, no excess skin or other "baggage". That big ole' dog could catch a squirrel right out of a tree. Morale here? Of course wild discus are not ideal to "type" of show discus. Like a working Rottweiler that may be ideal to what the breed was developed to do, it has no bearing in the "show ring". It's all about what looks the judges like best. If you don't subscribe to that "ideal", it's very simple, don't show your discus. The best discus in the world, show-wise may be a wife beating, egg eating, son of a carp, but that doesn't matter on whit in the show ring, all that matters is how pretty he is perceived to be by those judging him. So, yeah, it really is that simple, if you don't agree with it, don't participate. And the last point, if you DO choose to participate, don't take it personally. Your fish is not you, the beauty you find in your fish is not "judgable". Only the fish's beauty as perceived by others is "judgable". So, it doesn't diminish you if your fish is judged poorly, nor should it diminish your enjoyment of your fish. Also, try to ignore completely the word "quality". Show "quality" and pet "quality" do not grade a fish on whether it is better or not than another fish. Quality, in this respect, refers to what it should refer to, the properties of the fish, the fish's qualities as a whole, and whether or not they add up to something that will do well in a show, not whether or not the fish is a good breeder, or even an otherwise good looking fish. I think most of those into shows, fish, dog or otherwise, understand all of this, and, while not meaning to come across as pompous and self-righteous, do so anyway simply because those who are not into shows do not understand where they're coming from. Me, I am SO not into shows, but I do appreciate and respect both ends of the spectrum.

[dishpanhands]

Everyone can look at a rating system as they want to but I think we are starting to nit pick here... seriously.

Yea I'm a nit picker...I feel That part of me has served me well..It made me do my job better then other could...LOL.. In my world everthing should be definded.. "A fishes eye looks to big for me" don't cut it. in my world. I want to know how many mm it is to big and what the perfect size is...I worked with figures sorry..

I know I can't get this so I stay away.. sorry if I upset anbody. and I'll stay out of it now.

[brewmaster15]

Yea I'm a nit picker...I feel That part of me has served me well..It made me do my job better then other could...LOL.. In my world everthing should be definded.. "A fishes eye looks to big for me" don't cut it. in my world. I want to know how many mm it is to big and what the perfect size is...I worked with figures sorry..

I know I can't get this so I stay away.. sorry if I upset anbody. and I'll stay out of it now.
Lol... its not a problem D, I would guess that in your "world" you would do very well if discus were judged on Genotypes...something that can be broken down to a more scientific level... but unfortunately...they are judged by phenotypes as imprecise as that is by its very nature!:)

-al

[Don Trinko]

"Beauty is in the eyes of the beholder" I have coins also, IMO very inconsistant. Some of the winning Bettas in betta contests are ugly to me.
Things that bother the judges do not bother me but I do not have a problem with that. We all see things a little different. Don T.

[mmorris]

I wonder if part of the problem might be with the grading scale we Americans are used to in the school system, where a 70 or 80% is average. I remember receiving a grade in the low 60s on my first paper during my first term at the London School of Economics graduate program. I was horrified, only to discover later that a grade of 70 is a distinction. The idea is that there is no perfect essay and hense no example of a perfect essay, for any essay can be improved upon. It seems to me to be the same with discus.

[ShinShin]

Dish,

The whole thing was started to help new discus owners get an idea what to look for in a discus. Period. It is not a contest.

Mat

[sp33dy25]

i have an idea.

take a picture of your fish.

then we will judge the owner,